GerateWohl 4,283 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Today listening to Shore I thought by myself that the two have a lot in common. Both wrote scores for a lot of fantasy and quite abysmal movies. Both have a certain characteristic and concise simplcity in their music, and a tendency to a little boring concert works apart from the screen. But in the end it is just a gut feeling of mine. Does anybody else see that connection or similarity? Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,090 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Well, both had their most famous director collaborations mid-career, and both ended when their scores were rejected due to creative differences… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,306 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Shore is not close enough to Hermann in talent to make this comparison, sorry to say. Ricard and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,469 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Herrmann was much more of a visionary and innovator than Shore is. Honestly, in terms of innovation, nobody beats Hermann and North. Not even Williams and Goldsmith. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 To be fair, if Herrmann and North were alive and working in today's industry, I don't know how'd they cope. I don't know if either of them would be allowed to innovate as much as they did in their lifetime. Hell, with Benny's temperament he'd probably be composing concert works almost exclusevily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edmilson 7,266 Posted June 6, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 6, 2021 Herrmann never wrote a score as good as The Lord of the Rings. Fabulin, Holko, Chen G. and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,045 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 I agree with Edmilson Edmilson and TSMefford 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 I don't! But that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SteveMc 2,674 Posted June 6, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 6, 2021 Ralph Vaughn Williams wrote nothing as good as The Planets, but he was still a better composer than Holst. Chen G., Muad'Dib and KK 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,090 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 15 minutes ago, SteveMc said: Ralph Vaughn Williams wrote nothing as good as The Planets, but he was still a better composer than Holst. I like that - although I couldn't categorically call the Tallis Fantasia not as a good as The Planets. But it sums up my feeling about Holst & RVW very well. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 I am always wary of branding a vastly inferior melodist as the superior composer. "I think that's the hardest part of it all: tune writing, motivic construction, and so on". — John Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Just now, Kühni said: In regards to Herrmann, Goldsmith or both? and RVW! Kühni and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,304 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, Fabulin said: I am always wary of branding a vastly inferior melodist as the superior composer. Meh. Great composers don't have to be great melodists. Chen G., bored and SteveMc 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, Kühni said: @Fabulin Unrelated: where's that MS scene from? 1932's The Half-Naked Truth Kühni 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ricard 2,235 Posted June 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Edmilson said: Herrmann never wrote a score as good as The Lord of the Rings. You're joking, right? Jurassic Shark, bruce marshall and MikeH 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivatee 327 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Psycho... Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephariel 444 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Was Hermann ever this inactive? To me a better comparison is someone who wrote his or her Magnus Opus and then just chill the rest of his or her career. Is that Hermann? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,469 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Kühni said: Which, again, applies to Herrmann. I can recall many of his motifs and themes, but I would label none of those as great melodies, or even a melody to begin with. That was simply not his style and/or forte. (NB: I remain unaware of large swaths of the man's career, so please take the above with a pillar of salt.) Come on man. He has many many many many many famous and memorable themes. This is not true at all. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,304 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 That, he certainly has. But outside of a functional sense, I wouldn't call Herrmann a particularly gifted melodist. His strengths lie in building structures around accumulating cells. Shore isn't a strong melodist either. And for all of LOTR's brilliance, Herrmann is without a doubt the stronger composer. No contest. Speaking of Herrmann, the LSO programmed his Psycho suite in a strings orchestra concert last night: SteveMc and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 That's a nice performance, I like the energy of the prelude. 13 hours ago, GerateWohl said: But in the end it is just a gut feeling of mine. Your gut is not wrong, but you're comparing a very good composer to a mediocre one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lord Zimmer 211 Posted June 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2021 Another similarity is that both are far below my level. SteveMc, GerateWohl, Bayesian and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 You're unleveled, HanZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 13 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said: Herrmann was much more of a visionary and innovator than Shore is. Honestly, in terms of innovation, nobody beats Hermann and North. Not even Williams and Goldsmith. From the Williams-Goldsmith generation, I'd say that Morricone is comparable or even superior to Herrmann in terms of innovative ideas. They both were keen on using unusual orchestrations to give each movie its own "color", and I think it can be said that Morricone experimented with a broader variety of compositional techniques. In Morricone's output, you find anything from the lush Romantic melody (e.g. Deborah's theme and other analogue pieces) to minimalism, to 12-tone, to avant-garde. Herrmann was more repetitive with respect to this aspect (to be fair, he also died much younger). Muad'Dib and GerateWohl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,283 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: Your gut is not wrong, but you're comparing a very good composer to a mediocre one. Ok, regarding it under the side condition that todays film music world is just a pale reflection of its golden times and comparing contemporary scores with golden and silver age scores is like comparing 20th century literature with Twitter, I still would see Shore as some kind of inheritor of Hermann in many ways. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,620 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 14 hours ago, Muad'Dib said: To be fair, if Herrmann and North were alive and working in today's industry, I don't know how'd they cope. I reckon Herrmann wouldn't have a chance in mainstream Hollywood, because of his refusal to revise cues or write anything other than what he wanted to. As to the original topic, I agree that he never did anything on the scale of LotR, although I personally feel that The Hobbit scores demonstrate that Shore perhaps doesn't have the same inspiration when the filmic material isn't up there. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,283 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 48 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: As to the original topic, I agree that he never did anything on the scale of LotR, although I personally feel that The Hobbit scores demonstrate that Shore perhaps doesn't have the same inspiration when the filmic material isn't up there. Hm. I like the Hobbit scores. Especially "An Unexpected Journey". For me Howard Shore became a better composer with every Middle Earth score. Return of the King might be the creative climax. But the maturity of the compositions increased in my oppinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Aenae 41 Posted June 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2021 I don't understand why some people seem to treat the LOTR scores as some kind of peak for film music. I don't think LOTR is Shore's best work. He is good at suspense/horror, just don't let him write melody, in my opinion. The LOTR scores are widely overrated. They are competent pastiche scores, but nothing new. Herrmann wrote many scores that are much better than LOTR. bored, Holko, GerateWohl and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,620 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I don't think the Hobbit scores are lacking in maturity or sophistication - merely that the themes aren't as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,283 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Aenae said: I don't understand why some people seem to treat the LOTR scores as some kind of peak for film music. I don't think LOTR is Shore's best work. He is good at suspense/horror, just don't let him write melody, in my opinion. The LOTR scores are widely overrated. They are competent pastiche scores, but nothing new. Herrmann wrote many scores that are much better than LOTR. I also thought, that the LotR scores should rather be compared to Hermann's own fantasy scores like 7th Voage of Sindbad, Three Worlds of Gulliver etc. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, Aenae said: I don't understand why some people seem to treat the LOTR scores as some kind of peak for film music. I don't think LOTR is Shore's best work. He is good at suspense/horror, just don't let him write melody, in my opinion. Let Enya do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Let Enya do it. A LOTR-inspired album from Enya would be a dream come true. As to the topic at hand, I can't really think of any contemporary composer that is the Herrmann of today. Plenty of composers who tap into his stylings now and then, of course (Elfman, most famously, back in the day), but not really a composer who is the exact replica of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 3,903 Posted June 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Aenae said: I don't understand why some people seem to treat the LOTR scores as some kind of peak for film music. I don't think LOTR is Shore's best work. He is good at suspense/horror, just don't let him write melody, in my opinion. We treat it like this because it is; which isn't the same as to say Shore is the peak composer. As has been said elsewhere, compositions don't necessarily need great tunes (which Rings doe have, but never mind) to be great. Der Fliegende Hollander doesn't have a tune half as good as Rienzi... bored, Nick1Ø66 and Edmilson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted June 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Aenae said: I don't understand why some people seem to treat the LOTR scores as some kind of peak for film music. I don't think LOTR is Shore's best work. He is good at suspense/horror, just don't let him write melody, in my opinion. The LOTR scores are widely overrated. They are competent pastiche scores, but nothing new. Herrmann wrote many scores that are much better than LOTR. LotR has many great themes and motifs, sorry they didn't resonate with you. Edmilson, bored, Holko and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2021 That apology isn't good enough. Ricard, bruce marshall and Smeltington 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Some rando on the internet has the audacity to trash Shore's greatest scores? No apology will be issued. My words are final. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,235 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 No one's trashed Shore's greatest scores in this thread, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,304 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 3 hours ago, GerateWohl said: I also thought, that the LotR scores should rather be compared to Hermann's own fantasy scores like 7th Voage of Sindbad, Three Worlds of Gulliver etc. I think in terms of motivic architecture, I understand the comparison in this thread. But I think they both just saw the orchestra very differently in the way they wrote. 3 hours ago, Aenae said: The LOTR scores are widely overrated. They are competent pastiche scores, but nothing new. What a strange argument. How is LOTR any more a pastiche score than something like Star Wars? And if you look beneath the popular stuff (as with anything), there's so much texturally and harmonically that Shore was doing that was largely unprecedented in big blockbuster films of that scale. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bored 296 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I have been slowly making my way through Herrmann's work recently, and though I love a lot of it, none of it has the emotional resonance or staying power as LOTR, or even the Hobbit scores for me. I'm not saying Shore's music is objectively better, because it probably isn't, but I adore sci-fi and fantasy scores that not only create melodies that represent what they're meant to perfectly, but also do everything they can to be lore-friendly and assist in world building just as much as the film itself does. The decision to get the choir to sing poems and dialogue from the books, in Tolkien's languages, and the way themes are used to expand, or build on lore that the content of the film couldn't cover, are genius ideas (yes I know the choral languages were not only Shore's work but it still improves the music's quality overall). So to answer the thread, Herrmann is probably objectively a stronger, and more innovative composer, but I think Shore's LOTR music is more appealing overall and has stronger memorability for general audiences (with the exception of the shower string clusters from Psycho). SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenae 41 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 17 minutes ago, KK said: What a strange argument. How is LOTR any more a pastiche score than something like Star Wars? And if you look beneath the popular stuff (as with anything), there's so much texturally and harmonically that Shore was doing that was largely unprecedented in big blockbuster films of that scale. Both LOTR and Star Wars are obviously essentially pastiche scores, I didn't say one was more pastiche than the other, although obviously there was more temp track love in the case of Star Wars I believe. I agree with you to an extent, but it is when people say LOTR is better than anything Herrmann ever did is what I don't understand at all. I don't think Shore has a single score to his name that is as good as Vertigo and that is not even necessarily Herrmann's best score. Herrmann was the much more powerful and original composer for Shore to be able to stand a chance. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,304 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Aenae said: I agree with you to an extent, but it is when people say LOTR is better than anything Herrmann ever did is what I don't understand at all. I don't think Shore has a single score to his name that is as good as Vertigo and that is not even necessarily Herrmann's best score. Herrmann was the much more powerful and original composer for Shore to be able to stand a chance. Sure, the comparison is flawed. I think pitting any composer against Herrmann is going to be a losing battle. But let's not diminish Shore's own achievements for the sake of it. Ultimately, I think LOTR is one of the "great" scores, as is Vertigo. The comparison kind of stops there for me. But I do listen to the former more. And if we're talking about pastiche, Vertigo is essentially all Wagner anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,903 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 And Wagner's Parsifal is all Lohengrin, plus the existing melody of the Dresden Amen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I don't know if Howard Shore is the Bernard Herrmann of his time, but I think he's an underrated composer and a lot of his albums are hard to find physically. So GEEZ, put a man on the case! mrbellamy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, KK said: Ultimately, I think LOTR is one of the "great" scores FotR is pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenae 41 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 33 minutes ago, KK said: Sure, the comparison is flawed. I think pitting any composer against Herrmann is going to be a losing battle. But let's not diminish Shore's own achievements for the sake of it. Ultimately, I think LOTR is one of the "great" scores, as is Vertigo. The comparison kind of stops there for me. But I do listen to the former more. And if we're talking about pastiche, Vertigo is essentially all Wagner anyway The music for the love scene draws heavily on Wagner sure, but the rest of the score is in Herrmann's own voice, so it is hardly a pastiche score. For me LOTR is certainly an above average film score, it is certainly better than almost anything that is being done these days, but it still isn't anything that I would put up in the film score pantheon with Herrmann's finest work. It doesn't help that I find large chunks of the LOTR music to be filler that's extremely uninteresting on its own (despite some pretty memorable bits here and there). I think Austin Wintory put it best: By the way, I don't dislike the LOTR music at all, I just don't think it deserves the be cited alongside the greatest scores (unless you mean in just in the most recent two decades) and that's where we probably disagree. Let's leave it at that Muad'Dib and Ricard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, Aenae said: It doesn't help that I find large chunks of the LOTR music to be filler that's extremely uninteresting on its own I guess a contributing reason for that is that the films have a duration of a gazillion hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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