Lord Montague 42 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, toothless said: I attended the concert and I just listened to the recording. That recording is… interesting. It's nothing like the live performance (at least that's my feeling). The mix is really weird with a front facing piano or harp that you can awkwardly hear well. All and All I really like the recording though. Because it makes it different and I can spot new parts of pieces I thought I knew by heart You are talking about Berlin recording here, which has the frontal harp, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Pawel P. 738 Posted February 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 7, 2022 My review, in Polish. https://kultura.onet.pl/muzyka/recenzje/plyty-tygodnia-recenzja-bastille-john-williams-black-country-new-road/8xevlm6 Google Translate link: https://kultura-onet-pl.translate.goog/muzyka/recenzje/plyty-tygodnia-recenzja-bastille-john-williams-black-country-new-road/8xevlm6?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp GerateWohl, BB-8 and Jurassic Shark 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I like such concise reviews. bollemanneke and Pawel P. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,096 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 And it just arrived. Saving it for tommorow!!! Bespin and BB-8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothless 963 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Lord Montague said: You are talking about Berlin recording here, which has the frontal harp, right? Yup sorry, I clicked on the thread title too quickly 😄 bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I'm waiting for my copy of the deluxe edition to arrive from Europadisc, which has it at a good price: https://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/219929/John_Williams_-_The_Berlin_Concert_(Blu-ray_Edition)_(CD_+_Bluray).htm https://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/219927/John_Williams_-_The_Berlin_Concert.htm I've listened to the complete album once on Spotify, and my initial impression is that the tempi are good and the performances as well. There were a few unusual tempo changes and ritardandos that I'll have to get used to, but I suspect this one's going to get more rotation with me than both the Vienna album, although the Mutter arrangements are great, and the Dudamel album where the performance details are too obscured by the acoustics. Disco Stu and bollemanneke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I got so used to that ritardando in Harry's wondrous World that not hearing it in other recordings has become really jarring and unnatural. Jurassic Shark and michael_grig 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 33 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: the Dudamel album where the performance details are too obscured by the acoustics. I've seen some people around the forum bad-mouthing this album, but I've actually listened to this album a fair amount over the last few years because I think the performances are mostly very nice, but yes as you say, unfortunately marred by a not great recording. I haven't listened to enough albums recorded at Disney Hall to say if the problem is the space itself, the engineering, or both. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I've seen some people around the forum bad-mouthing this album, but I've actually listened to this album a fair amount over the last few years because I think the performances are mostly very nice, but yes as you say, unfortunately marred by a not great recording. I haven't listened to enough albums recorded at Disney Hall to say if the problem is the space itself, the engineering, or both. I think in this case the acoustics makes it difficult to fully assess the performances, as pointed out by @Marian Schedenig in his great review. http://celluloidtunes.no/celebrating-john-williams-gustavo-dudamel-the-la-philharmonic-orchestra/ How's the acoustics of that bluray with Soundings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 10 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I think in this case the acoustics makes it difficult to fully assess the performances, as pointed out by @Marian Schedenig in his great review. http://celluloidtunes.no/celebrating-john-williams-gustavo-dudamel-the-la-philharmonic-orchestra/ How's the acoustics of that bluray with Soundings? I mean just compare Dudamel's performance of "Out to Sea" to the Vienna album and it's night and day IMO, even with the acoustic shortcomings. The LA Phil performance is so much more vibrant and precise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Disco Stu said: I mean just compare Dudamel's performance of "Out to Sea" to the Vienna album and it's night and day IMO, even with the acoustic shortcomings. The LA Phil performance is so much more vibrant and precise! Oh, sure, there's no competition there. I was rather referring to the minutiae of the performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montague 42 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 12 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I mean just compare Dudamel's performance of "Out to Sea" to the Vienna album and it's night and day IMO, even with the acoustic shortcomings. The LA Phil performance is so much more vibrant! Interesting. Dudamel is overspeeding in the L.A. recording. John Williams conducts in Vienna exactly in tempo. His own score metronome marking is 106. Dudamel is more like 115. But maybe JW will change his metronome marking for "Out to Sea" based on your comment. :-) Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 As Capt. Barbossa might say, a composer's tempo markings are more guidelines than actual rules bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montague 42 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: As Capt. Barbossa might say, a composer's tempo markings are more guidelines than actual rules You guys crack me up. Seriously, even with JW conducting himself you think you know better. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 12 minutes ago, Lord Montague said: You guys crack me up. Seriously, even with JW conducting himself you think you know better. LOL. What does it say to you that JW used to conduct the piece way faster than he does now? Also, you're not quite right as he starts at 106 but it starts slowing down after a couple of bars and by the end of the piece the tempo is 96. I think because of his age, his kind of internal metronome just isn't as good anymore. Of course people will hate me for saying, but this started about 10 years ago and can be heard in so many pieces that are supposed to have a stable tempo, where things just slow down as pieces develop. The Berlin players seem to have been aware of this and took a lot initiative to keep on playing with fresh energy. Interestingly, he seems to have no problems with slow pieces, or pieces that have a fluctuating tempo. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Who does this guy think he is? William Ross? bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted February 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 7, 2022 John Williams is an amazing composer, and a great conductor, but he is not infallible and he would be the first to say that any conductor should have leeway to interpret and make changes within the framework of a score. It's the conductor's job, not being a metronome. Jurassic Shark, bollemanneke and Remco 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I think that as a conductor, it's a "trust test" to ask the orchestra to play slower or faster than usual. Karajan recorded some Mozart violin Concerti with Mutter (when she was a teen), slower than usual, to allow her to follow. These recordings are now historical. And sometimes conducting faster just keep the orchestra awake and alert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Bespin said: I think that as a conductor, it's a "trust test" to ask the orchestra to play slower or faster and finally, to follow YOU. Surely, but sometimes they'll decide to just 'play', because they know what the music should sound like and what the conductor wants. Like this perfect example: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montague 42 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, Remco said: ... I think because of his age, his kind of internal metronome just isn't as good anymore. ... His internal metronome is alright. The structure of the music becomes thicker in the fugato, causes a slight slowdown. That's quite musical and normal. Dudamel rushes through it. Someone thinks that's "more vibrant", just because of the quicker tempo. I don't think so, not in this case. The Vienna tempo is better for hearing the structure IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Just now, Lord Montague said: His internal metronome is alright. The structure of the music becomes thicker in the fugato, causes a slight slowdown. That's quite musical and normal. Dudamel rushes through it. Some think that's "more vibrant". I don't think so, not in this case. Probably can't convince you, but I think that's absolute nonsense. Then what about Scherzo for X-Wings on the TFA OST. Or even Scherzo for Motorcycle on the Berlin album ends slower than it starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Just now, Lord Montague said: His internal metronome is alright. The structure of the music becomes thicker in the fugato, causes a slight slowdown. That's quite musical and normal. Dudamel rushes through it. Some think that's "more vibrant". I don't think so, not in this case. To be clear, I never made any connection between my feeling the performance is "vibrant" and the tempo, that was all you. I meant specifically the performances of the instrumentalists had a brightness that is very lacking from the Vienna players for me. To each their own, these are subjective emotional reactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Is there a non-written rule which specify that a conductor must absolutely end a movement at the exact speed he started it? Do you think orchestra conductors are robots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 35 minutes ago, Lord Montague said: Interesting. Dudamel is overspeeding in the L.A. recording. John Williams conducts in Vienna exactly in tempo. His own score metronome marking is 106. Dudamel is more like 115. But maybe JW will change his metronome marking for "Out to Sea" based on your comment. :-) That is really interesting, as I agree that Dudamel's tempo is much, much more natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Just now, Bespin said: Is there a non-written rule which specify that a conductor must absolutely end a movement at the exact speed he started it? Do you think conductors are robots? God, I knew this was going to happen. I think it's telling something that when a conductor gets in his 80s, he can't keep up the tempi in pieces that are supposed to have a stable tempo, and by the way that have a stable tempo in the recordings that he has done in the past. I'll refrain from further discussion. By the way, I absolutely love this album! Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 When a conductor slow down the tempo it could also mean that he wants more control over the orchestra. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 12 minutes ago, Remco said: God, I knew this was going to happen. You know better than this. 11 minutes ago, Bespin said: When a conductor slow down it could also mean that he wants more control over the orchestra. Yes, which means they're out of control at the correct tempo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 An orchestra is a big machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,350 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 A swarm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Did they play Schindler's List at the Berlin concerts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Bespin said: Karajan recorded some Mozart violin Concerti with Mutter (when she was a teen), slower than usual, to allow her to follow. These recordings are now historical. Was that really the reason for his choice of tempi? Karajan got notoriously slower with age, notably in the late 70s and 80s, and especially with pre-Romantic music when compared with more historically informed interpretations. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,339 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, Bespin said: Did they play Schindler's List at the Berlin concerts? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Lord Montague said: His internal metronome is alright. The structure of the music becomes thicker in the fugato, causes a slight slowdown. That's quite musical and normal. Dudamel rushes through it. Someone thinks that's "more vibrant", just because of the quicker tempo. I don't think so, not in this case. The Vienna tempo is better for hearing the structure IMHO. I like Dudamel's Sturm & Drang pace in this case (I'm much less convinced by most of the other pieces on his album), but it's always felt *very* fast. Considering the acoustics of the Musikvereinssaal, I'm not sure it would be a good idea to play such dense music so fast. Many famous conductors have misjudged the hall's strong reverb and played it too loudly or too quickly, and for whatever reason, Williams really hit a naer perfect acoustical balance in those concerts. Lord Montague and Gurkensalat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 They should have been at the Sofiensaal instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, Jay said: No. I really wonder why!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 They should have played I Could Have Done More. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: They should have been at the Sofiensaal instead. That burned down 20 years ago. They restored it, but i don't know how it sounds now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 24 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: Was that really the reason for his choice of tempi? Karajan got notoriously slower with age, notably in the late 70s and 80s, and especially with pre-Romantic music when compared with more historically informed interpretations. Being old had nothing to do with Karajan's slowness. HIs 1963 recording of Beethoven 8-3 is ridiculously lethargic. So much so that I'm convinced he just did it to annoy the listener. No one in their right mind would play it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, bollemanneke said: Being old had nothing to do with Karajan's slowness. HIs 1963 recording of Beethoven 8-3 is ridiculously lethargic. So much so that I'm convinced he just did it to annoy the listener. No one in their right mind would play it like that. Not being "old", but in general his later interpretations are slower than his earlier ones. I love his 60s Beethoven cycle, and it's generally on the brisk side. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 It came! I’ll be watching it tomorrow evening in honor of the Maestro’s 90th birthday! Amer and bollemanneke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,339 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 The Blu Ray edition from Presto Music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lairdo 726 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 29 minutes ago, JohnnyD said: It came! I’ll be watching it tomorrow evening in honor of the Maestro’s 90th birthday! Just got the notice mine arrived too (from Presto - CD/Blu-Ray + CD only). I am going to our central office to pick it up now! Haven't decided if I am waiting until tomorrow or watching tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montague 42 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: They should have been at the Sofiensaal instead. LOL. You really get the trophy for best trolling. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,053 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 What? The VPO has done many legendary recordings at that venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lairdo 726 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: What? The VPO has done many legendary recordings at that venue. But didn't the VPO do some of the biggest Decca Solti recordings (and Bernstein too) at another venue instead of the concert hall? 1 hour ago, lairdo said: Haven't decided if I am waiting until tomorrow or watching tonight! Ok, I didn't (couldn't) wait and watched one piece between meetings. Looks amazing and sounds wonderful in Dolby Atmos (which has a much more aggressive mix than the few seconds I heard of the DTS 5.1). I really like the packaging as well, more than I thought I would. DG has improved each time from Across the Stars to Live in Vienna to this Berlin Concert. Dr. Rick and Bespin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew 590 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Deluxe Edition tracklist? Did they perform the Star Wars Main Title? I'm dying to hear a quality performance / recording without the mistakes that the Vienna one had. The Main Title is not on the version that's on Spotify. Just realized the one on Spotify has the music from both Discs. Does the "deluxe edition" have extra music? This is confusing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,339 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Both CD releases are the same. And the Spotify version is the same, but without speeches. Drew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lairdo 726 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 On 7/2/2022 at 5:02 PM, Drew said: Deluxe Edition tracklist? Did they perform the Star Wars Main Title? Yes, I was confused about this too. Here's the image from the back of the CDs+Blu-rays deluxe edition. (The CDs are the same across all 3 packages - jewel case, deluxe CDs, CDs+BRs.) As @Jay wrote above, all editions have the same musical selections (other than the mini-LP which only has 2 tracks total). The digital versions (purchase or streaming) do not include the speeches or applause. (I have not compared if the tracks are identical - as I recall the audience was quite polite and held applause until the music faded, and DG would therefore not have had to use endings from the rehearsals.) Not including the introductions is consistent with the way Live in Vienna was released. The only digital version was the "non-live" version. The Live edition was physical media only. In Berlin, the Star Wars Main Title was not part of the concert. However, The Throne Room and Finale was the last piece performed prior to the 3 encores (ET, Princess Leia, Imperial March). Interestingly, the video running time is 115 mins but the CDs and Blu-ray Audio Disc have a total running of 147 107 mins (1 hour, 47 mins). I am not yet sure how those 8 mins differ. Part is the opening orchestra tune up and credits over the hall prior to JW entering. I am guessing the applause at the end is longer to accommodate the end credits. The rest is likely just longer pauses in the video to make sense. (I'm watching Harry Potter's Wondrous World as I type this so I have not seen that far yet!) And wow Nimbus 2000 is so great to see and hear together. It's a charming piece, and it seems like the woodwinds are really working hard on it. Amer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew 590 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 I wish the Quidditch brass suite got as much attention as Nimbus 2000 gets. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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