John Williams & Berliner Philharmoniker 14th/15th/16th Oct 2021

[crumbs 13,855]

4 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

And I cracked and asked DG if they would keep the crude edits in JW's speeches from the DCH.

 

I don't understand why they tampered with these in the first place. Totally needless meddling.

[bollemanneke 3,154]

Yeah, I hate that new sentence: ...and (huge cut) Here is Far and Away. and of course we cnanot have Williams say that the BP is a venerable institution either, the nerve of that guy!

[Fabulin 3,469]

One could say that because of those woodwind absentees, Nimbus 2000 hasn't been played by the Berliner Philharmoniker at all 

[Remco 685]

I understand some of you would’ve liked to hear some of the more famous soloists, but still.

 

Imagine that when some of these academists get approached to play in the orchestra, they stop calling it the Berlin Phil. That makes no sense at all – they are playing in the Berlin Phil from that moment on. And you’re listening to the Berlin Phil!

 

Should they rename the orchestra also everytime that an older generation retires? This is not how an orchestra works.

[Fabulin 3,469]

19 minutes ago, Remco said:

they are playing in the Berlin Phil from that moment on. And you’re listening to the Berlin Phil!

only de iure

[BB-8 2,942]

Well, Wenzel Fuchs is an establishment.

[Remco 685]

1 hour ago, Fabulin said:

only de iure

But what exactly is the problem here? The fact you would’ve liked to hear these players or the assumed snobbery that is underneath it?

 

Whatever your ‘de facto’ Berlin Phil is, I think what really matters is that the institute itself invited Williams. The orchestra can take on different forms.

 

[heritage 73]

Fact is, that the woodwind section at the JW concert in Berlin has nothing to do with the original BP. You can twist und turn it as you want. 

 

I have seen many classic orchestra. But that a orchestra has changed a whole section with players from other orchestras and Academy players i have never seen....

[Remco 685]

28 minutes ago, heritage said:

Fact is, that the woodwind section at the JW concert in Berlin has nothing to do with the original BP. You can twist und turn it as you want. 

 

I have seen many classic orchestra. But that a orchestra has changed a whole section with players from other orchestras and Academy players i have never seen....

 

So your problem is the alleged snobbery towards JW, I suppose? Or the quality of the orchestra?

[BB-8 2,942]

The woodwind section is undergoing quite a transformation. Some players are rather occupied with themselves. We just have to accept that they are busy and can't play on every occasion.

 

 

[heritage 73]

Remco, yes you have understand. The quality of the BP is much more better with their star players. What do you think why they are their star players ? Because they are better than other players or not ? The BP is word famous because of exactly these players. And not because of their young academy players or players from other orchestras...

[bollemanneke 3,154]

Oh, come on! That flute section was the best I've heard in a very long time! We definitely didn't need other players if you're talking about quality.

[heritage 73]

Come on, thats your opinion. Have you ever heard the original BP Flute section ?

 

 

[Steve 539]

5 minutes ago, heritage said:

Come on, thats your opinion. Have you ever heard the original BP Flute section ?

You can go on and on about it. We got an almost 100% performance. Nobody cares for the principal snobs who didn't play. They wouldnt have sounded better, that is a fact!

[heritage 73]

Ohh the player for which the BP is so famous are snobs. Aha...You can also tell yourself a lot. The fact is, the BP sound much better with their star players as with academy members und members from others orchestras....

 

I think here write people who have never heard the BP in their best Formation. 

[Remco 685]

I sort of get the point, but I can’t help but feel it comes of as a little whiny given the extraordinary quality of this orchestra including the woodwinds, whoever they were. They were absolutely world class and I have heard a lot of live orchestras.

[heritage 73]

A lot of live orchestras. OK. But it seems nobody has heard the BP in the original Formation. But all claim the BP can not sound better although they were never heard. That is nonsense. They speak about things they did not know.  Between top class and world class is a small way. But it is a difference.

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,154]

I have heard the 'proper' BP and still don't hear a difference. But that doesn't matter to me, really. The performances I heard were above and beyond anything I could have dreamed of. The BP played John Williams. Let some players be snobbish about him, if that even was the case. The concert was a trascendental experience. Case closed for me. HOw many regular players played in Vienna?

[Steve 539]

Did you guys notice the young oboe player who played in the Vienna Philharmonic before (also on the Blueray)? It was his first week with the BPO. Quite a debut. He performed his solos in Nimbus 2000 very well.

[heritage 73]

I was not in Vienna. So i can not say who plays for them.

I have another opinion. I have heard a difference in sound. When they play classical music, it sounds different to the JW concert. It has much more perfection and a warmer sound.

[Jurassic Shark 11,038]

Too much perfection comes at the risk of sounding boring.

[Steve 539]

18 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

HOw many regular players played in Vienna?

Many. 

 

7 minutes ago, heritage said:

I was not in Vienna. So i can not say who plays for them.

I have another opinion. I have heard a difference in sound. When they play classical music, it sounds different to the JW concert. It has much more perfection.

My reference recordings are the studio recordings which are perfect! 

 

The whole discussion is bs.

So if ASM played 1st violin it would have sounded better? 

 

Let me add something I already mentioned: Compare Raiders March and Flying Theme from Waldbühne 2015 with these concerts. The 2015 concert sounds like a local youth orchestra playing, and all principals are there. So what now?

[Remco 685]

47 minutes ago, heritage said:

A lot of live orchestras. OK. But it seems nobody has heard the BP in the original Formation. But all claim the BP can not sound better although they were never heard. That is nonsense. They speak about things they did not know.  Between top class and world class is a small way. But it is a difference.

 

 

 

I have heard them in Amsterdam. But whatever.

 

When the Nimbus 2000 recording comes out, maybe you'd like to give a critique on what exactly is sub-par about it.

[heritage 73]

Steve, I hope you know that studio recordings und live performances are a different thing.

And a live performance on CD or LP is also a different thing to a real live performance.  They press never the real live performance on CD or LP. They always operate the tone control...

 

But for the concert we were lucky people. Now the US Government has made a travel warning for germany. So i think JW would not travel to germany at this time. That was a good planing by the BP 

[Jurassic Shark 11,038]

12 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Too much perfection comes at the risk of sounding boring.

 

In that regard the VPO recording sounds very exciting!

[BB-8 2,942]

12 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Oh, come on! That flute section was the best I've heard in a very long time! We definitely didn't need other players if you're talking about quality.

And it can't be changed now anyway. And John Williams was happy with the orchestra as such and their excellent soloists, too.

 

No one is able to prove that well-known stars are generally better than newcomers, because all stars were newcomers themselves when they were discovered.

 

I think that flute player was exceptionally good.

 

A flawless flautist.

[ocelot 493]

On 21/11/2021 at 9:32 PM, crumbs said:

 

I think you're mixing me up with someone there, I made no comment about Maxine or the LSO.

 

It's also possible there might have been COVID complications, just speculating.

Ugh, I was multi quoting and replied to the wrong person on that, lol

11 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I have heard the 'proper' BP and still don't hear a difference. But that doesn't matter to me, really. The performances I heard were above and beyond anything I could have dreamed of. The BP played John Williams. Let some players be snobbish about him, if that even was the case. The concert was a trascendental experience. Case closed for me. HOw many regular players played in Vienna?

Oh 100%, as I said, Bravo, it was a great concert. I was just saying for me I really wanted to hear the actual players play under him and was personally disappointed in not seeing them and wondered if they were snubbing him, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about them. But I never said anything about the performance being bad It was spectacular!

[Luke Skywalker 1,668]

Could it also be that Williams didnt care, or even prefers younger players which may have him in higher regard, because for example they started playing music because the music of his movies? They may be more enthusiastic and play better for that matter....

[bollemanneke 3,154]

Yeah, maybe Vienna kind of sent him a message.

[Luke Skywalker 1,668]

Well, the vienna players asked to play the imperial march…

[heritage 73]

Oh i think the BP Stars habe no desire to JW. They play only for Petrenko, Blomstedt, Muti, Gergiev etc. Or in other words for the real Superstar Conductors 

[BB-8 2,942]

I consider that to be sarcasm.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,328]

1 hour ago, heritage said:

Oh i think the BP Stars habe no desire to JW. They play only for Petrenko, Blomstedt, Muti, Gergiev etc. Or in other words for the real Superstar Conductors 

Or they can't play JW because they're not good enough 😜

We'll never know as it didn't happened

[BB-8 2,942]

Let it snow!

 

 

[heritage 73]

@May the Force be with You: Or its the other way. The BP think the JW Music is so easy to play that they can give their top Stars a rest. So they can Install young academy members and loanies from other orchestras.

 

 

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,328]

The doubt is allowed.

Although I usually prefer to think that when you think that something is so easy that it doesn't deserve your attention, it usually means that you're not sure about succeeding it otherwise while dodging it?

[Steve 539]

1 hour ago, heritage said:

@May the Force be with You: Or its the other way. The BP think the JW Music is so easy to play that they can give their top Stars a rest. So they can Install young academy members and loanies from other orchestras.

 

 

Sarah Willis said it is harder to play than Bruckner....

[GerateWohl 3,642]

I am not an expert here, but I think, playing John Williams' music is high-performance sport for a musician.

Not necessarily because it is so brillant, but it is so many fortissimi and sixteenth and thirty-second notes.

Probably everyone agrees that it is great music, but I believe, it is exhausting.

But of course any world class soloist should have that stamina.

[heritage 73]

Steve, yes maybe for Sarah Willis   But then she will definitely have an answer why the top soloists are missing 

[Leitmotif 18]

Snobbery does not tolerate contemporary and other genres music.

[heritage 73]

It sounds like all that want not play JW are snobbery. Thats complete bullshit. Sorry..

[BB-8 2,942]

2 hours ago, Leitmotif said:

Snobbery does not tolerate contemporary and other genres music.

 

And there is historical evidence for snobbery, i.e. VPO and BPO successfully avoiding to perform any kind of film music for decades - while Strauß and Lincke were taken seriously.

 

Luckily, times have changed.

[heritage 73]

Maybe. But time have long changed. We are not in the Karajan etc. era. But has probably not really arrived here yet.

[Leitmotif 18]

1 hour ago, heritage said:

It sounds like all that want not play JW are snobbery. Thats complete bullshit. Sorry..

It is not a bullshit, it is an existing phenomenon, and it is generally, not about JW. 
JW, Justin Bieber... whatever...
Enough to read critiques from the "high culture" or comments on BP’s facebook page.
It is pop music, to play it is below rank.

[Marian Schedenig 7,490]

45 minutes ago, heritage said:

But time have long changed. We are not in the Karajan etc. era.

 

I wonder what (if anything) Karajan's thoughts about film music were, or would be today when it's more common to have concert versions available. After all, it was him who introduced mainland Europe to The Planets.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're getting at in this discussion. First you complain about the leading BPO players supposedly refusing to play JW, and then you say it can't be snobbery. In any case, how about another reason (I'm just speculating): Perhaps the younger players were just more eager to be part of these concerts?

[Tom Guernsey 2,008]

Aren't they effectively still employees who are required to play music in accordance with the management's wishes?! I'm sure there is some give and take but a mass JW snubbing seems a bit unlikely?!

[BB-8 2,942]

Confirmed: JP timp flub repaired.

 

Source: rbb broadcast just now.

 

A Heliodor Production...

 

 

 

 

 

[BB-8 2,942]

Streaming here:

John Williams dirigiert John Williams | rbb (rbb-online.de)

 

without E.T., Nimbus 2000, Superman, CEOTTK, Princess Leia...

[bollemanneke 3,154]

So a complete waste of time.

[BB-8 2,942]

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

So a complete waste of time.

Like with Vienna, not a single second "wasted" on atmospheric scenes, e.g. JW's first entry, sequences from rehearsals, some shots of Berlin Phil during these nice autumnal days. There are so many possibilities with drones etc.