John Williams & Berliner Philharmoniker 14th/15th/16th Oct 2021

[Thor 6,721]

LSO should top all lists at all times.

[Jurassic Shark 11,039]

15 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Interesting (ish lol) although what is the x axis meant to represent?!

 

The amount of bestness*, obviously.

 

*In VPO's case the amount of flubs...

[Steve 539]

40 minutes ago, Thor said:

LSO should top all lists at all times.

Not really. They are not what they used to be. Same goes for NY Philharmonic and Boston Symphony. 

[Marian Schedenig 7,491]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Interesting (ish lol) although what is the x axis meant to represent?!

 

The amount of bestness*, obviously.

 

Bestness was exactly what I was going to reply.

[Jurassic Shark 11,039]

I added an easter egg for you.

[JTW 1,201]

4 hours ago, BB-8 said:

To put things into perspective...

BRSO and RCO should be the next on JW's bucket list.

 

Great to see the BFO constantly being in the top 10, they are an extraordinary orchestra. Iván Fischer is a great conductor and music director. He should invite JW to Budapest, it would be an amazing concert. 

[BB-8 2,942]

5 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Interesting (ish lol) although what is the x axis meant to represent?!

 

I presume cumulative amount of rank points on a scale 1-10, or so...

 

"We asked 15 critics from 11 countries to nominate their top ten orchestras and conductors. Unlike last time, when some critics, particularly in North America, felt unable to participate due to not seeing many of the orchestral candidates live, the explosion in streaming has made it possible to watch performances from orchestras around the world at the click of a mouse. 

While the vast majority of the panel ranked their nominations from 1 to 10, some felt unable to go quite that far and offered two lists of ten candidates, which were then given equal weighting when we collated the results. Critics participated on the understanding that individual voting was kept private. It’s worth noting that The New York Times does not permit its critics to participate in external polls such as this."

 

Critics’ Choice 2023: Who are the world’s top ten conductors and orchestras? | Bachtrack

 

5 hours ago, Steve said:

I think the BR Orchestra is a bit overrated. But lists are lists. Who cares 😄

 

True, the whole thing is utterly biased.

 

While I can live with a rank list of orchestras, I think a list of conductors goes too far as it will always end getting personal (with the risk of introducing gender, age and race bias).

 

I mean seeing Yannick and Klaus Mäkelä on the list but no Chailly, Dudamel, Järvi, Jurowski, Mehta, Myung Whun Chung or Nelsons, and not a single female conductor, is not objectively justifiable.

 

[Jurassic Shark 11,039]

1 minute ago, BB-8 said:

I mean seeing Yannick and Klaus Mäkelä

 

That's the weird name bias.

[Marian Schedenig 7,491]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I added an easter egg for you.

 

Yes, I edited that out because it was not relevant to the issue at hand.

[BB-8 2,942]

Perhaps baton length and structure should be taken into account?

[Tom Guernsey 2,008]

Surely you need to cross reference best conductor with best orchestra as I imagine certain orchestras will respond better to certain conductors. Then there's the matter of repertoire. Certain conductors are better at certain repertoire, as are certain orchestras. I mean, sure, the top orchestras are all gonna be technically excellent in pretty much anything but if we're looking at the best then clearly there are too many variables for this to be even remotely meaningful.

 

My original comment on the x-axis was actually more driven by the fact that it gives the impression that the LSO is only a quarter as good as the Berlin Phil or that Esa-Pekka Salonen is half as good as Kirill Petrenko. Which is clearly absolute bollocks.

[Jurassic Shark 11,039]

It's a logarithmic scale.

[Tom Guernsey 2,008]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's a logarithmic scale.

Uh huh lol.

[bollemanneke 3,154]

7 hours ago, Steve said:

Not really. They are not what they used to be. Same goes for NY Philharmonic and Boston Symphony. 

Why not? When were they better? I've always found them marvellous, but a lot depends on the conductor of course.

[BB-8 2,942]

I am clearly missing Boston and Nelsons from these lists.

[Marian Schedenig 7,491]

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Then there's the matter of repertoire. Certain conductors are better at certain repertoire, as are certain orchestras.

 

[igger6 846]

I was playing my Blu-Ray of this in the background tonight, and I was struck by the prominence of the piano in both "Jurassic Park" and "Superman."  I had literally never noticed that part of the arrangement in either piece after hundreds of listens.  I'm assuming this is a matter of the mic placement at the concert vis-à-vis the OST mix, but it was an absolute revelation to me, especially in the latter half of JP.

 

Now I'm wondering, does anyone know of any videos of "Jurassic Park" performances where the pianist is visible?  I don't think they show him or her on the Berlin Blu-Ray, and I'm still only 91 percent convinced that this is piano and not xylophone or something, and I'd love to see what some of it looks like being played.

[bollemanneke 3,154]

I found the piano prominence distracting, but in JP it really works. You wonder why JW writes so intricately for an instrument you then barely hear.

[Schilkeman 762]

On 12/09/2023 at 11:16 AM, bollemanneke said:

Why not? When were they better? I've always found them marvellous, but a lot depends on the conductor of course.

I think Boston is currently as good as they've ever been. NY needs some work, and I'm not sure Dudamel is the guy to help them. They were better in the 80's. 

 

There has always been the bad LSO and the good LSO, and it seems to depend on who's on the stand, and how inspired they are on any given day. When they're good, I think they're the best damn orchestra on the planet. That's not new. They've always been like that.

[Steve 539]

4 hours ago, igger6 said:

I was playing my Blu-Ray of this in the background tonight, and I was struck by the prominence of the piano in both "Jurassic Park" and "Superman."  I had literally never noticed that part of the arrangement in either piece after hundreds of listens.  I'm assuming this is a matter of the mic placement at the concert vis-à-vis the OST mix, but it was an absolute revelation to me, especially in the latter half of JP.

 

Now I'm wondering, does anyone know of any videos of "Jurassic Park" performances where the pianist is visible?  I don't think they show him or her on the Berlin Blu-Ray, and I'm still only 91 percent convinced that this is piano and not xylophone or something, and I'd love to see what some of it looks like being played.

If you listen to the stereo mix the piano is not very prominent. It's mostly very loud in the other mixes (don't know, was it 5.1?). I prefer to hear the stereo mix with a not too loud piano. It can be a bit distracting.

[michael_grig 453]

https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/wdr-klassik/john-williams-dirigiert-john-williams/wdr/Y3JpZDovL3dkci5kZS9CZWl0cmFnLXNvcGhvcmEtMjhiN2YxMTMtYzg5My00NmU4LThiOGEtNmRiNjE2ZmY2NWEz

[Marian Schedenig 7,491]

8 hours ago, igger6 said:

I was playing my Blu-Ray of this in the background tonight, and I was struck by the prominence of the piano in both "Jurassic Park" and "Superman."  I had literally never noticed that part of the arrangement in either piece after hundreds of listens.  I'm assuming this is a matter of the mic placement at the concert vis-à-vis the OST mix, but it was an absolute revelation to me, especially in the latter half of JP.

 

3 hours ago, Steve said:

If you listen to the stereo mix the piano is not very prominent. It's mostly very loud in the other mixes (don't know, was it 5.1?). I prefer to hear the stereo mix with a not too loud piano. It can be a bit distracting.

 

I've been complaining about that for a long time. I find it very hard to listen to much of that concert because of the over-mixed piano, and I have that problem with both mixes. The performances are great, but the piano that's clearly just playing accompaniment chords but sounds like it's a solo instrument really ruins a lot of it. It definitely wasn't a problem at the actual concert, the Philharmonie sounded great. But unlike with the Vienna recording, which sounds amazingly natural in the surround mix, they messed up with this one. I wonder if the hall might just be really difficult to record. For example, I don't think I've yet heard a recording with orchestra and choir from there that I didn't find bad.

[Tom 4,161]

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I found the piano prominence distracting, but in JP it really works. You wonder why JW writes so intricately for an instrument you then barely hear.

One of the many things that makes him great.  Aspects like those intricate lines, while not always consciously heard, are why these pieces have relistening value.  Sort of like the brilliant small details in the background of a movie scene. 

[igger6 846]

Sorry to hear that it was a negative for some, but I absolutely loved it!  It made me hear some of these pieces in a whole new way.  I'll have to check which sound settings I was using, but if there are multiple mixes on the Blu-Ray with differences that are audible to me, it'll be an historic first for both my ears and my sound system (a comparatively humble pair of Bose Companion 20 desktop speakers with no subwoofer).

 

In the meantime, have you heard the low string patterns in the Flying Theme lately?  Good grief, I sure have!

[bollemanneke 3,154]

3 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

 

I've been complaining about that for a long time. I find it very hard to listen to much of that concert because of the over-mixed piano, and I have that problem with both mixes. The performances are great, but the piano that's clearly just playing accompaniment chords but sounds like it's a solo instrument really ruins a lot of it. It definitely wasn't a problem at the actual concert, the Philharmonie sounded great. But unlike with the Vienna recording, which sounds amazingly natural in the surround mix, they messed up with this one. I wonder if the hall might just be really difficult to record. For example, I don't think I've yet heard a recording with orchestra and choir from there that I didn't find bad.

That's why I kept the Saturday live broadcast.

[ciarlese 211]

12 hours ago, michael_grig said:

https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/wdr-klassik/john-williams-dirigiert-john-williams/wdr/Y3JpZDovL3dkci5kZS9CZWl0cmFnLXNvcGhvcmEtMjhiN2YxMTMtYzg5My00NmU4LThiOGEtNmRiNjE2ZmY2NWEz

 

Can only be accessed from Germany 😕

[BB-8 2,942]

Just realized that Carl Davis did a kinda ritardando in HWW.

 

[Foxfan 107]

On 12/09/2023 at 3:12 AM, Steve said:

I think the BR Orchestra is a bit overrated. But lists are lists. Who cares 😄

 

Still haven't seen the Bavarian Radio Orchestra yet but it's on my list to go see on future trips to Europe (along with Dresden and Leipzig)... waiting for them to get a new hall in Munich (they keep getting shuffled around from that cavernous multifunction hall to now this semi-permanent "shed" until a third and definitive hall gets built for 2028 or something).

 

As for the Berlin Phil, I personally find their brass sound a little too harsh. Some may like that kind of brightness that the NY Phil also seems to have, but I prefer a more rounded and balanced sound like the RCO. The hall makes a big difference though.