Alfonso Tornero 0 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 A question for the experts: More than a source credit John Williams with the composition of a second symphony. Probably they refer to the Sinfonietta for Wind Ensemble from 1968. But Steven Spielberg, in his notes for 1975 album from Jaws, speaking about Williams’ catalogue says literally: “…including two full symphonies, a symphony for winds,...” This affirmation seems to prove the existence of that mysterious second symphony. Could anyone confirm some fact about this matter? Thank you… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,389 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 It's a question that has often popped up, due to that quote. It's just a confusion with the sinfonietta. Alfonso Tornero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,890 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 That bio also goes on to mention the sinfonietta. Though I agree with thor that there is no Symphony No. 2, it could also be that this bio references two completely different versions of his symphony. The original one from the mid 60's and a major revision of it from the early 80's. I think of it more like Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4 which includes: Symphony No. 4 in C (original version), Op. 47 (1929–30) Symphony No. 4 in C (revised version), Op. 112 (1947) The later work is the official No. 4, but the original is still published and the revision is so radically different, though they are supposed to be an original and revised work, they really are two totally different works though both are his 4th Symphony. Many cycles of Prokofiev's symphonies include both works since they are different enough to be considered two independent works. I think that is probably the case with JW's symphony, but regardless, he seems very insecure about it in either iteration and as far as I know, the revised version was never performed, pulled after being programmed in a Previn concert and replaced with a film suite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 JW's Symphony No.1 was written in 1966 and then performed in 1968 in Houston conducted by Andre Previn. JW later did extensive revisions for the European premiere in London in 1972, eith the LSO again conducted by Previn. Williams planned to conduct a furtherly revised version in Houston in 1986, but he then decided to put it back in the drawer. It's never been performed again and the printed score was withdrew from rental houses by JW's current publisher. More info here: https://thelegacyofjohnwilliams.com/2019/10/08/john-williams-early-concert-works/ SyncMan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJosh 892 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 If we ever get to hear Williams' Symphony, I'd guess it would be the revised version, but it would be fascinating to hear both. It's fascinating to me to study the revisions composers make, gives insight into their thought process. Jean Sibelius was a composer that would often continue revising some of his works after their premiere, sometimes multiple times. His Symphony No. 5 was revised twice after it's initial version. The original version is really interesting and quite different from what ended up being the final version, and thankfully the sheet music survived so there's a recording of it. There's a middle version as well, but sadly not much exists for it and so likely will never be heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfonso Tornero 0 Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 "Revision" is a good word. "Withdrawal" is a feared one. I hope the score of Williams' symphony (original or revised) will not be lost, and so we will be able to listen to a performance in a far distant future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 I'm sure a copy of the manuscript is safe in JW's personal library. Withdrew means that he doesn't want to have it our available for public performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,389 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 A few years ago, it was available to rent from some place whose name escapes me. It was through there that someone musically literate got it (very expensively!) and said it had a 'jazzy' sound. But since then, it has been removed from said place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,890 Posted June 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 24, 2021 I'm sure it will be performed but sadly, not while The Maestro is with us. I think it's something like Sibelius' Kullervo, his early choral symphony, in that the composer withdrew the work and considered it a youth or student work. But after his death, it grew in popularity and is quite adored by fans of the composer. It is evidently the work of a young composer, but still shows glimpses of the brilliance to come and has many fingerprints of the mature composer though a flawed piece. I think JW's symphony will follow a similar trajectory. I was cleaning my closet in need of additional storage space. In a box of papers, I recently found a "Symphony No. 1" I had written 25 years ago and forgot about. I had forgotten what it was about and had little idea of what it sounded like or if any of it was recoverable. It was probably my first completed work and way more ambitious than my skill allowed. I played through some of it and realized very quickly, it was disastrous. But I could also hear ideas, motifs, and touches that I still have. It is clearly something from me. I wonder if it is worth fixing but a part of me thinks I'm so different musically than I was back then, it would be easier to just take a theme from that and create a new work based on that original rather than revising and updating the original. It would effectively be a completely different work with my current skills and experience leveraged on those earlier ideas. So that would make it a completely different work than the original...a second symphony based on the same material. But another part of me thinks "what's the point?" I've done that thing better in other pieces so why spend the time to revisit this original oddity that no longer has relevance to me now or where I am heading? It's just something from my past like a diary from when I was a kid or something. It belongs in its place and time and level of incompetence. I think JW is sort of thinking along similar lines with his symphony. To him, it just doesn't represent who he is as a composer and if it was to represent who he was back then, other extant works probably did that better. Miguel Andrade, Jay and Marian Schedenig 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,285 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Most bands play their debut stuff even after 40 or 50 years because it is part of their musical history and identity. Why shouldn't orchestral composers do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,097 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 2 hours ago, GerateWohl said: Most bands play their debut stuff even after 40 or 50 years because it is part of their musical history and identity. Why shouldn't orchestral composers do that? Some play some stuff only because the fans demand it and would be happy to never have to play it again at all. If it's a mostly unknown song form their earliest self-produced EP that was never properly distributed and which never showed up on any of their "official" albums or concert set lists, and they didn't think much of it to boot, most bands would hardly perform one of their earliest "inadequate" songs. And without trying to slight "popular" music, Williams' training, mastery of his art, and decades of experience as one of the past 100 years' most accomplished composers will certainly trump those of most bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 On 6/23/2021 at 6:55 PM, Thor said: A few years ago, it was available to rent from some place whose name escapes me. It was through there that someone musically literate got it (very expensively!) and said it had a 'jazzy' sound. But since then, it has been removed from said place. At the article I linked above, you'll find some accurate descriptions of the piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,389 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Just now, TownerFan said: At the article I linked above, you'll find some accurate descriptions of the piece. Yeah, I've read your piece - and several other pieces over the years (like those British newspaper clippings from the 70s performances). I do, however, wish I had struck up an e-mail conversation with that bloke who rented the score sheets those years ago, for some further 'layman' descriptions of it. Maybe he's still around, reading this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,285 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Just now, Marian Schedenig said: Some play some stuff only because the fans demand it and would be happy to never have to play it again at all. If it's a mostly unknown song form their earliest self-produced EP that was never properly distributed and which never showed up on any of their "official" albums or concert set lists, and they didn't think much of it to boot, most bands would hardly perform one of their earliest "inadequate" songs. *sigh* You are certainly right. And I think, all bands who survived their first five years didn't have their best stuff on their first record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,236 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Williams also still has performed pre-Jaws film work like Jane Eyre, The Cowboys, Cinderella Liberty so I guess that goes far back enough for him and most audiences who are hardly demanding those. And his Violin Concerto he's obviously proud of although he saw fit to revise that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt S. 492 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 I think The Reivers is probably his oldest work he still programs with any semi-regularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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