Discovering John Barry for the first time/Bond Theme authorship

[blondheim 1,157]

I really am not familiar with John Barry's work. I couldn't hum a single theme of his off the top of my head, unless you consider the Bond theme his. I would like more information on this. Not that it matters too much but I'm curious. As for the rest of his work, I can't remember the last time I have ever seen a film he has scored other than a Bond film. Dances With Wolves as a child and never since.

 

I would really appreciate suggestions. The major arcana, off-the beaten path, whatever; I know nothing. A compilation or two of incredible quality would be nice for a sampler maybe? I have a lot of free time recently.

 

The reason I have never gotten into John Barry was purposeful but silly. I absolutely adore Basil Poledouris and I was sore about what might have been had he scored Dances With Wolves. I am sore. However, it is not John Barry's fault and so therefore a silly resentment.

 

I hope the quality of the music is good enough that I won't feel the twang of bitterness when I hear his name. I reiterate that I really don't think I know a single theme. Unless Bond's is his. Is it?

[Anthony 572]

[blondheim 1,157]

5 minutes ago, Anthony said:

 

I appreciate the suggestion but I would rather not start with the City of Prague. I don't find their performances to be emotional very often and apparently John Barry is quite the romantic.

[Bespin 8,472]

My "basic" John Barry collection, as I am a pretty recent fan:

 

[Edmilson 7,367]

Dances with Wolves is one of my favorite film scores ever. It's an absolutely masterpiece.

[blondheim 1,157]

2 minutes ago, Bespin said:

My "basic" John Barry collection, as I am a pretty recent fan:

 

 

Those Bonds look nice all lined up. What series of releases is that which looks so nice?

Just now, Edmilson said:

Dances with Wolves is one of my favorite film scores ever. It's an absolutely masterpiece.

 

I'm still tender. I will get there.

[Bespin 8,472]

Those Bond CDs were remastered in 2003, often adding bonus tracks. I love them!

 

[Corellian2019 383]

 

 

 

 

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,576]

2 hours ago, blondheim said:

 

I appreciate the suggestion but I would rather not start with the City of Prague. I don't find their performances to be emotional very often and apparently John Barry is quite the romantic.

 

John Barry's music is also often simplistic enough not to challenge the 1990s abilities of the City of Prague too much. I actually like most of their recordings of his music in that era, and this 4 CD set is pretty decent so don't be too put off by it.

My favorite Barry scores are probably The Last Valley and The Lion in Winter. For the latter in particular I recommend you seek out the incredible film!

 

Yavar

[blondheim 1,157]

I am still waiting for the City of Prague to go for broke. It always seems like they are holding back, which I don't understand. The only recording of theirs I really like is their Pirates of the Caribbean disc. And part of me wonders if that isn't just because it was the first version I heard that sounded like it was being played by an actual orchestra. If I had more options, I'm not sure how it would stack.

 

It's not about the technical proficiency for me. I'm still waiting to feel it.

[Marian Schedenig 8,153]

4 hours ago, blondheim said:

I appreciate the suggestion but I would rather not start with the City of Prague. I don't find their performances to be emotional very often and apparently John Barry is quite the romantic.

 

The CoP Barry recordings were considered good even before the orchestra got a deservedly better reputation through its Tadlow recordings.

 

I've been wondering if Barry's The Lion in Winter may have been an influence behind Goldsmith's The Omen:

 

[blondheim 1,157]

1 minute ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

The CoP Barry recordings were considered good even before the orchestra got a deservedly better reputation through its Tadlow recordings.

 

I've been wondering if Barry's The Lion in Winter may have been an influence behind Goldsmith's The Omen:

 

 

That video is unavailable but comparisons to The Omen are a sell for me.

 

I will definitely check out the City of Prague recordings later. I typically do. I just don't have enough confidence in the ensemble to let them be my first impressions of these scores because first impressions stick with me.

[Marian Schedenig 8,153]

14 minutes ago, blondheim said:

That video is unavailable but comparisons to The Omen are a sell for me.

 

Just search The Lion in Winter on YouTube (or a streaming service of your choice), I'm sure you'll find something. It's not necessarily *that* similar to The Omen (it's no Satanic mass, for one), but I do think there are striking parallels between the two. (Also, I'm just referring to the Latin choir bits in the main title - the other parts of both scores are very different).

[blondheim 1,157]

19 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Just search The Lion in Winter on YouTube (or a streaming service of your choice), I'm sure you'll find something. It's not necessarily *that* similar to The Omen (it's no Satanic mass, for one), but I do think there are striking parallels between the two. (Also, I'm just referring to the Latin choir bits in the main title - the other parts of both scores are very different).

 

That's my plan as soon as I get a chance to sit down and really listen to these suggestions. I will let you know what I think

[Ludwig 1,120]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:19 PM, blondheim said:

I really am not familiar with John Barry's work. I couldn't hum a single theme of his off the top of my head, unless you consider the Bond theme his. I would like more information on this. Not that it matters too much but I'm curious.

 

So a number of years ago, I compiled a couple of quotes on this question and posted the results over on Film Score Monthly. Here's what I wrote:

 

Quote

The "B" section of the James Bond Theme was written for "Dr. No" along with the rest of the tune and is usually attributed to John Barry despite the lawsuits won by Monty Norman.

Yes, we'll never know for sure, but it seems to me that Norman had nothing to do with the "James Bond Theme". Norman claimed that Barry simply orchestrated his tune, but Barry tells a different story. Just to give the relevant points in an interview in the book Overtones and Undertones, Barry said:

I received a phone call on a Friday evening from a gentleman called Noel Rogers, who ran United Artists Music in London. And he said , "Look. We've got this movie called Dr. No. It's a James Bond thing." ... Monty Norman had been signed to do the music. ... But they were not happy, and they wanted me to come in the next day to see what we could do. I went in and Monty played this thing. And I then took Noel Rogers out into another room and said, "I can't work with that material. I'm being pretty successful now with what I'm doing, and that doesn't bend into anything close to what we're looking for." But Norman had been signed to do the movie, and they need a main title--two minutes ten, or whatever it was--and they needed it quick, like the following Wednesday. ... And so I wrote the damn thing, went into the studio, recorded it, and then later I stood in line outside the Pavillion in Picadilly on the Sunday that Dr. No. opened, went into the theater, and the goddamned thing's all over the picture!

And as Jeff Smith tells us in The Sounds of Commerce:

Because of their contractual obligations to Norman, though, Saltzman and Broccoli [the film's producers] persuaded Barry to give up his songwriting credit in exchange for the promise of future employment. Norman continues to receive the songwriting credit for the "James Bond Theme".

Ah, the things we'll do to get ahead when we're young!

 

Monty Norman, who is credited with penning the theme, was always adamant that he wrote everything in the theme as we know it, and Barry just helped flesh out the orchestration. But there's also Jon Burlingame's thorough book, The Music of James Bond, which states:

 

Quote

Barry often said that, apart from the familiar guitar notes of the opening bars, he found little to work with in Norman's material and just made up the rest, including the bass line, the countermelody and the jazz-oriented bridge.

 

There's much more to read in Burlingame, but you probably get the picture: Barry essentially took Norman's guitar riff (which was from Norman's "Bad Sign, Good Sign") and created what we know as the Bond theme. He never got the credit because he was new to film scoring and agreed to signing away the credit, not knowing it would become one of film history's most successful franchises ever.

 

Brilliant composer, though. It's great to hear you've taken an interest in his film work. I think he was a master of using harmony as the primary vehicle for emotional expression. I also think this is why his music isn't as texturally complex as others - it allows the harmony to shine through and be the focus of attention. As I say, brilliant.

[HunterTech 982]

I always assumed the guitar riff was the only thing Norman was responsible for, given the "songs" he made to try and clear the air only ever mentioned that piece of the composition, which would make for a pretty flimsy case of authorship if the courts weren't so useless in music cases a lot of the time.

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Could've sworn that there was a court case that finally judged Norman to be the composer and Barry the arranger.  

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

17 hours ago, blondheim said:

I am sore.

 

You should put some ointment on that.

 

17 hours ago, blondheim said:

Unless Bond's is his. Is it?

 

 

 

With all that Bond money he should be able to pay for some piano lessons!

 

...and here's the original song that the JB theme was based on.

 

 

17 hours ago, blondheim said:

I would really appreciate suggestions.

 

His best score is Out of Africa.

 

 

[MikeH 768]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,576]

6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

 

 

See the problem with this is that at the end of the video, an Indian ensemble performs the *full* Bond theme on the instrumentation it was supposedly originally intended for... but then here...

 

6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

 

 

...when playing this it becomes more than obvious that Norman's only contribution was that (admittedly cool) opening riff. None of the rest of the Bond theme as we know it ("arranged" by John Barry) is present in Norman's original song, beyond that. So the end of the other video is actually incredibly misleading that way; Norman himself doesn't demonstrate any other elements of the Bond theme either.

 

Yavar

[Ludwig 1,120]

13 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Could've sworn that there was a court case that finally judged Norman to be the composer and Barry the arranger.  

 

Yes, it came up as a result of an interview David Arnold did with Barry before Arnold scored his first Bond film. Barry claimed that he was the composer of the Bond theme. This wasn't the first time he had made such a claim publicly, but The Sunday Times ran a story sensationalizing it. This caused Norman to sue because he his royalties on the theme, according to Burlingame, is often in the hundreds of thousands of pounds each year, and Norman claimed that the Times "rubbished my career".

 

Anyway, long story short, yes @Sweeping Strings is right. After a very detailed trial, a jury decided in favor of Norman, who remains officially credited for composing the theme to this day. Barry always was considered the arranger, though he wasn't officially credited as such, only his band was credited with the performance.

[publicist 4,643]

Barry was sure more interesting and varied before the wake-comatose part of his career, meaning his Out of Africa-and-beyond phase. I'm still fond of a lot of it, but it sure is very slow and very repetitive. Three not yet listed here:

 

 

and one of his most glorious old-school themes, after the 1-minute mark:

 

 

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

Not a film score, but I'd really recommend this awesome album of his

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

Actually, the Bond music was composed by Count Basie. He also wrote all the novels.

 

 

[Smeltington 1,436]

On 6/29/2021 at 7:41 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

...and here's the original song that the JB theme was based on.

 

 

I kinda wish I hadn't heard that lol. I'm going to have to work hard to erase it from my brain.

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

1 hour ago, Smeltington said:

 

I kinda wish I hadn't heard that lol. I'm going to have to work hard to erase it from my brain.

 

You're welcome! 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

King Kong. Glorious.

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

Actually, the entire King Kong score was based on an obscure Monty Norman riff.

[MikeH 768]

7 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Actually, the entire King Kong score was based on an obscure Monty Norman riff.

Ah yes, “Bad Ape, Good Ape”. 

[MikeH 768]

5 hours ago, Smeltington said:

 

I kinda wish I hadn't heard that lol. I'm going to have to work hard to erase it from my brain.

This might help!

 

 

[Smeltington 1,436]

NNNNOOOOOOOOO

 

 

The thing you posted SHOULD NOT EXIST!!!!!!!!!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

[blondheim 1,157]

I have listened to practically all of the suggestions and I have thoughts about some of them.

 

Out of Africa: I will need to see the movie before I dig deeply into this one. I just revisited Farewell to the King and it's pretty clear which score of John Barry's Milius was asking Basil to imitate when he asked for the Barry sound. I really like how the Main Title is nicely contained, like a song on an album. I am about to discover this is true of a lot of his work.

 

Closer and Closer: This one was so good I listened to it twice in a row. It's really fun. I really need to be seeing these movies so I can understand how he lays to picture.

 

Both Bond pieces were from movies I hadn't seen in a while and for a song with a title like That's My Little Octopussy, it was quite beautiful and sincere. Another wonderfully contained song.

 

Wednesday's Child: I loved this. I will definitely be watching this movie and visiting this score.

 

Body Heat: Has a wonderful flavor to it but with jazz I feel like I need more listens to understand its strangeness and intricacies. However, the sax performance on this recording is really good and I have loved many McNeely re-recordings so I can see myself studying this one a lot very soon.

 

The Lion in Winter and The Last Valley both seem very dense. I just did a lot of Basil so I may start with more romantic Barry fare but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy them. The Lion in Winter has heavy Omen vibes.

 

I will eventually listen to anything Titanic-related.

 

I actually listened to the Americans album first. I didn't intend to. Originally I was merely going to sample it but the first track was so impressive that I just let it play. This is going to get pulled out a lot. I can't wait to delve into his jazz work after hearing that. It's not Charles Munch but it's smooth.

 

Now, King Kong: If I have seen this adaptation, I don't remember it. I am watching it tonight. I listened to the soundtrack album in preparation. Kong is a story I am familiar with. So like a tone poem, I felt I could manage. Dwan's theme is wonderful. Listening to Maybe My Luck Has Changed and The End back and forth really helped me lock down the melody which I now love the rise and fall of. This specific melody is long-lined, I wonder if that is something he does often. I don't think there is much repetition of complete phrase in the entire iteration of the full melody other than the one instance. Small sections repeat but each "verse" ends uniquely, other than the one time. I am very fond of this kind of songwriting.

 

I can easily do a filmography search and dive in myself but it is more fun for me to hear which scores you guys like. So thanks everybody for all the suggestions. I really appreciate it.

 

So Americans captured me immediately and that was 1975 and Kong was 1976 (and felt immediately accessible) so this is where I have started. Now, should I go backwards or forwards?

 

 

 

[MikeH 768]

Hi Blondheim. To put it very generally, I would say pre mid-70’s Barry was much more jazzy and unique (in regards to orchestration). Late 70’s through the end of his life he really settled on a very definite orchestration that fit his style. Violins would play the theme, horns and trombones played the chords, and celli and harp played a counter melody. 
 

Again, that’s a very general way of categorizing it as there are outliers in both of his different style periods. I think above all, Barry was very focused on melody and harmony. Apart from the Bond films, he disliked “Mickey mousing” aka scoring the action precisely. As Nic Raine once put it, Barry would just write a piece of music and things would sync automatically. He was more concerned with the mood and feel of the piece with how it related to picture rather than how fancy or dense it was compositionally or how it “hit” the action. 

 

Here are a few additional pieces which might help you decide which direction to go in. 

The Knack (1965)

 

Deadfall (1968)

 

 

 

On Her Majesty’s Secret Service (1969)

 

 

 

 

 

The Deep main title (1977)

 

 

 

High Road to China (1983)

 

 

The Specialist (1994)

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

3 hours ago, blondheim said:

Closer and Closer: This one was so good I listened to it twice in a row. It's really fun. I really need to be seeing these movies so I can understand how he lays to picture.

 

Don't. It will be a letdown, at least it's in case of 'Follow Me'.

3 hours ago, blondheim said:

Wednesday's Child: I loved this. I will definitely be watching this movie and visiting this score.

 

Though it may be over-analyzing at this point, this is peak Barry in the sense that the calliope-like theme plays over a dark and moody opening scene at the east-Berlin wall - the idea being that later in the film there is a conversation between agent George Segal and a schoolteacher about children being the the next generation germans, having to bear the nazi burden and also being the hope to build something better. This is a needle-bare thread, but Barry went along with it, making the child-like innocence theme the central musical idea to characterize something much more lofty than the basic movie plot, yet ironic (with the calliope being at odds with the grave danger).

 

Nowadays probably no composer would get away with that.

[blondheim 1,157]

31 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Don't. It will be a letdown, at least it's in case of 'Follow Me'.

 

Though it may be over-analyzing at this point, this is peak Barry in the sense that the calliope-like theme plays over a dark and moody opening scene at the east-Berlin wall - the idea being that later in the film there is a conversation between agent George Segal and a schoolteacher about children being the the next generation germans, having to bear the nazi burden and also being the hope to build something better. This is a needle-bare thread, but Barry went along with it, making the child-like innocence theme the central musical idea to characterize something much more lofty than the basic movie plot, yet ironic (with the calliope being at odds with the grave danger).

 

Nowadays probably no composer would get away with that.

 

That's fascinating. Thanks for that info. John Barry is getting more interesting all the time.

 

1 hour ago, MikeH said:

Hi Blondheim. To put it very generally, I would say pre mid-70’s Barry was much more jazzy and unique (in regards to orchestration). Late 70’s through the end of his life he really settled on a very definite orchestration that fit his style. Violins would play the theme, horns and trombones played the chords, and celli and harp played a counter melody. 
 

Again, that’s a very general way of categorizing it as there are outliers in both of his different style periods. I think above all, Barry was very focused on melody and harmony. Apart from the Bond films, he disliked “Mickey mousing” aka scoring the action precisely. As Nic Raine once put it, Barry would just write a piece of music and things would sync automatically. He was more concerned with the mood and feel of the piece with how it related to picture rather than how fancy or dense it was compositionally or how it “hit” the action. 

 

Here are a few additional pieces which might help you decide which direction to go in. 

The Knack (1965)

 

Deadfall (1968)

 

 

On Her Majesty’s Secret Service (1969)

 

 

The Deep main title (1977)

 

 

High Road to China (1983)

 

 

The Specialist (1994)

 

 

 

That piece from The Knack is fantastic. I love this sound. You can also hear Giacchino's Incredibles theme being born out of that piece from OHMSS.

 

High Road to China has a great theme. I can tell that one is going to be lush.

 

I forgot to mention The Specialist last time. I have really enjoyed both of these pieces. This one was different from the last one but haunting, not like anything else I have heard so far.

 

These were also great suggestions. Thanks. I'm having a lot of fun with this.

[AJM 14]

A couple more suggestions to check out:

Peggy Sue Got Married - the deluxe edition is quite expensive now but there was a song/score album which has the main Barry themes on. Peggy Sue's Homecoming is definitely worth checking out.

Chaplin - the opening sequence to this film and Barry's main theme fit so perfectly together.

Howard the Duck - the score is no where near as lame as the movie and is quite a fun score. Has a Bond feel to it.

The Dove - a really nice score that captures the essence of the film very well. Sail the Summer Wind is a nice song and also worth checking out.

 

[blondheim 1,157]

2 hours ago, AJM said:

A couple more suggestions to check out:

Peggy Sue Got Married - the deluxe edition is quite expensive now but there was a song/score album which has the main Barry themes on. Peggy Sue's Homecoming is definitely worth checking out.

Chaplin - the opening sequence to this film and Barry's main theme fit so perfectly together.

Howard the Duck - the score is no where near as lame as the movie and is quite a fun score. Has a Bond feel to it.

The Dove - a really nice score that captures the essence of the film very well. Sail the Summer Wind is a nice song and also worth checking out.

 

 

Which piece from Howard the Duck would you recommend?

[AJM 14]

11 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 

Which piece from Howard the Duck would you recommend?

You're the Duckiest and Journey to Earth (Main Title)