philw 1 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Hi, I'm putting together the percussion section for a concert performance of Star Wars VI and John Williams specifies use of a 'guillotine drum'. Are there any experts out there who know what this is? I cannot find any reference to this sort of drum on the Internet. Thanks! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,480 Posted August 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 2, 2021 Install a guillotine near the drummer. Then tell him, if he plays at the wrong time, he'll pass to the guillotine. crumbs, crlbrg, Holko and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted August 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 2, 2021 The last time a guillotine was used for an execution was in 1977, the year Star Wars was released. Now I'm not going to jump to any conclusions but... Jurassic Shark, Brando and crumbs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 6 hours ago, philw said: Hi, I'm putting together the percussion section for a concert performance of Star Wars VI and John Williams specifies use of a 'guillotine drum'. Are there any experts out there who know what this is? I cannot find any reference to this sort of drum on the Internet. Thanks! Phil I suspect that it's a piece of a 40-year old L.A. jargon... if you could tell us which track of a recording does it play in, or at least which cue is it in, maybe someone could recognize it by ear. Otherwise, @BrotherSound@karelm have you guys ever heard of a "guillotine drum"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BrotherSound 2,242 Posted August 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 2, 2021 7 hours ago, philw said: I'm putting together the percussion section for a concert performance of Star Wars VI and John Williams specifies use of a 'guillotine drum'. Are there any experts out there who know what this is? I cannot find any reference to this sort of drum on the Internet. I suspect this may be a reference to Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. The fourth movement, 'March to the Scaffold', ends with a musically depicted execution by guillotine. Though it's not specified in the score, by tradition the drum roll is usually performed on a large field drum with the snares turned off. I think that's what JW is going for here. See also Prisoner of Azkaban, where he calls instead for a "scaffold drum": crumbs, Fabulin, mrbellamy and 6 others 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Which Azkaban cue is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragoz350 450 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 13 minutes ago, Jay said: Which Azkaban cue is that? 5M6 The Executioner BrotherSound 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 I figured! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jay said: I figured! MikeH and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,346 Posted August 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 2, 2021 That guy he's sitting next to has strange facial hair. Too dark, or too much cheek showing, or something crumbs, Brando and MrJosh 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJosh 892 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jay said: That guy he's sitting next to has strange facial hair. Too dark, or too much cheek showing, or something Might look better if he had a mustache along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Aye, that's the problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 It's a special effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Sítrónu 494 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, Jay said: That guy he's sitting next to has strange facial hair. Too dark, or too much cheek showing, or something That's Gary Kurtz, producer of ANH and TESB 8 hours ago, philw said: Hi, I'm putting together the percussion section for a concert performance of Star Wars VI and John Williams specifies use of a 'guillotine drum'. Are there any experts out there who know what this is? I cannot find any reference to this sort of drum on the Internet. Thanks! Phil I'd say he's not referring to a special instrument but to a specific sound/mood/expression. In both cases (Star Wars VI and PoA). Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said: The last time a guillotine was used for an execution was in 1977, the year Star Wars was released. Now I'm not going to jump to any conclusions but... It was used on Gary Kurtz, but his beard stopped the knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Henry Sítrónu 494 Posted August 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 2, 2021 In ROTS he even asks for 3 „guillotine drums“! (1m6, Count Dooku's Entrance) 9 hours ago, philw said: I'm putting together the percussion section for a concert performance @philw I'd use a very low tuned field drum without snares. MikeH, crumbs, Jay and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Manakin Skywalker 4,891 Posted August 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 2, 2021 39 minutes ago, Jay said: That guy he's sitting next to has strange facial hair. Too dark, or too much cheek showing, or something What do you have against Abraham Lincoln? Brando, Remco, crumbs and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 1 hour ago, BrotherSound said: I suspect this may be a reference to Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. This was my initial thought when I saw this thread, and I even checked that score, but it seemed too obvious Not to mention in other places of ROTJ Williams marked the bass drum simply as a bass drum. The performing practice you mention changes the picture for sure. Nice to have professionals around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 39 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: It was used on Gary Kurtz, but his beard stopped the knife. It only got his mustache. crumbs and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJosh 892 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 I get it, so it's that "sounds like I'm about to go to the guillotine" low field drum sound. The usage in Count Dooku's Entrance really foreshadows what's about to happen with Dooku! crumbs, Fabulin and Smeltington 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw 1 Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 Well there's one or two sensible responses on here! Thank you @henry ! Henry Sítrónu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyncMan 314 Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 5:33 AM, philw said: Hi, I'm putting together the percussion section for a concert performance of Star Wars VI Are you talking about excerpts from the score or the entire score? Are you putting on a 'film-with-live-orchestra' concert? When you have recovered from this forum's royal welcome, can you tell us about the event? Henry Sítrónu and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 8:50 AM, Fabulin said: I suspect that it's a piece of a 40-year old L.A. jargon... if you could tell us which track of a recording does it play in, or at least which cue is it in, maybe someone could recognize it by ear. Otherwise, @BrotherSound@karelm have you guys ever heard of a "guillotine drum"? Sorry for the slow response, I didn't read the rest of the thread so not sure if this has been answered but I have it on very good authority that... "It’s a rather large field drum. I have an old field drum that has rope to keep the tension on the head. Back in the day that drum was basically a marching drum for parades or funerals, etc. Tune the drum as loose as you can stand it." Cheers Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 I find the descriptions of percussion instruments in film scores to be so interesting. Synth sounds, too. So often there seems to be this approach of communicating the emotive intent more than the specifics of how to get it. And I suppose when you're working with world-class musicians, it certainly makes sense to entrust them with getting the right sound. crumbs and ChrisAfonso 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post QuartalHarmony 542 Posted August 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Datameister said: So often there seems to be this approach of communicating the emotive intent more than the specifics of how to get it. Indeed - usually, I’d suggest, because the composer won’t be a specialist in the relevant discipline so will have to write, on a synth part for example, ‘ominous whooshing tone’ rather than ‘double oscillators detuned with mild flanging, heavy phaser and 30% white noise’. With a bit of discussion and context, an experienced programmer/player would have little difficulty translating the former into the latter. Mark Jay, crumbs and Datameister 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuartalHarmony 542 Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 Let’s be realistic - if JW still uses piano, pencil and paper in the 21st century, how much is he likely to know in detail about synth programming? That’s what you hire Hans Zimmer for… though there might be a trade-off of sorts involved! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,912 Posted August 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Datameister said: I find the descriptions of percussion instruments in film scores to be so interesting. Synth sounds, too. So often there seems to be this approach of communicating the emotive intent more than the specifics of how to get it. And I suppose when you're working with world-class musicians, it certainly makes sense to entrust them with getting the right sound. Yes, absolutely, but it isn't just percussion. You don't need to go overboard (Mahler where he might say "as a flower hearing what the twilight has to say") but a single word or indication when something specific is desired could help. I just returned from a chamber performance where the percussionist said they really wanted to understand "emotive" directions because even though the instrument was just a marimba, him understanding descriptively what we were wanting resulted in his choice of mallets and performance interpretation. So in that example, he would LOVE to see "guillotine" or something and expressly asked for that. Usually we would describe something emotionally such as "yearning" or "solemn" or something. We could also provide more musical guidance such as "bell like". That is more preferred then saying "hard mallet". So indicating "intense" or marcato would help them decide the hard mallet is what was most appropriate but in some pro levels, they'll have multiple hard mallets and could even have a range of a dozen sets of mallets ranging from very soft to very hard so giving more expressive information helps them know exactly what is desired. Not Mr. Big, Jay, Datameister and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted August 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2021 This discussion really hones in on how important it can be for composers to engage with actual players, and how unfortunate it is that so many composers now have to rely on virtual instruments. There's something truly remarkable to be said for how a player-- a specialist in their instrument--can take the broad strokes given to them by a composer, much like an actor and a director/screenwriter, and imbue the part with dimensions that a composer just can't conceive of. Jay, Not Mr. Big, crumbs and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crlbrg 381 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 I don't know if we can make this the "what does JW mean by this creatively-named percussion instrument" thread, but I'm trying to figure out what Low Snake Snarl is...Is he referring to a vibraslap? Heard here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 On 8/12/2021 at 1:33 AM, karelm said: You don't need to go overboard (Mahler where he might say "as a flower hearing what the twilight has to say") but a single word or indication when something specific is desired could help. How about Rued Langgaard? (See movement descriptions in the comment below the video): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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