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James Horner's STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN (1982) - NEW! 2021 2-CD La-La Land Records Remastered Edition


Jay

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Not liking the OST mix from those samples. The beam is so damn buried!

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5 hours ago, Jay said:

"Details about this album will be coming out around August 17. Keep an eye out at trekmovie.com, trekcore.com and jameshorner-filmmusic.com."

 

Just checked all 3 sites.  Nothing yet.

 

 

The other two are up now

 

https://trekmovie.com/2021/08/17/la-la-land-releases-expanded-remastered-of-star-trek-ii-the-wrath-of-khan-soundtrack/

https://blog.trekcore.com/2021/08/remastered-star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-soundtrack/

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Ordered with Eiger Sanction and some others... mucho excitement! And the clips sound great, definitely a lot more definition and clarity. Dammit I miss JH. Must stop editing this post... but I just read on the JH Film Music website's review that they did actually digitally re-pitch the bagpipes in the alternate version of Amazing Grace. And I thought I was making a joke suggestion (but let's face it, I'm thinking this will improve this otherwise lovely track immensely as the micro tonal difference in pitch between pipes and orchestra is quite grating).

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Wow...I'm stunned at what an easy choice this ended up being for me. I absolutely adore this score but after listening the samples, I think the FSM is enough for me, at least for now. Maybe if my financial situation improves I'll revisit it, but this sounds comparable to the FSM to me.

 

Still thrilled that this is available for those who don't have the FSM release or who find this to be a worthwhile purchase, though!

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I'm actually confused about "Genesis Countdown"

 

The difference between "Battle In The Mutara Nebula" is obvious.  Per the nice chart in the trekcore article, we know that the album version only used takes 131 and 134 (recorded on April 30th), while the film (and 2009 FSM CD and LLL main program) mix over that the overlay recorded as take 168 on May 3rd.  (and that take 169 from May 3rd was another potential overlay now appearing in the "Wild Orchestra" track).


But this chart indicates that both the album and film version of "Genesis Countdown" only use takes 10 and 12 from April 12th and that's it.  So, what's the difference?  I guess they used different portions of each take (IE, different edit points) from each other?

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So I've read the articles about this release, and it appears to me (unless I'm reading them wrong) that this is not taken from the 24-track 2" analog tape, but rather from a "rough stereo mix" on 1/2" analog tape?  Downmixed while it was being recorded live.   So that this mix may not be as good as what was originally released, as there isn't much that one can do to adjust a recording that is already stereo to begin with?  

 

Of course the frequency response will be better, but the mix itself?

 

Or maybe the "rough stereo mix" was pretty much the same as what was used for the final mix...

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54 minutes ago, Marc Martin said:

So I've read the articles about this release, and it appears to me (unless I'm reading them wrong) that this is not taken from the 24-track 2" analog tape, but rather from a "rough stereo mix" on 1/2" analog tape?  Downmixed while it was being recorded live.   So that this mix may not be as good as what was originally released, as there isn't much that one can do to adjust a recording that is already stereo to begin with?  

 

Of course the frequency response will be better, but the mix itself?

 

Or maybe the "rough stereo mix" was pretty much the same as what was used for the final mix...

IIUC No it is from the 24 track live recording.

 

The rough stereo mix was 2 tracks out of the 32 track tape. LCR were another 3 tracks out of the 32 track

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11 hours ago, Permanent Waves said:

IIUC No it is from the 24 track live recording.

 

The rough stereo mix was 2 tracks out of the 32 track tape. LCR were another 3 tracks out of the 32 track

 

On blog.trekcore.com, the producer of this release Neil Bulk confirmed that this release was not taken from the 24 track, but rather a 3-track (left/center/right?) "film mix".  Although it's not yet clear to me where this came from, as he said it wasn't the rough stereo mix.

11 hours ago, Marc Martin said:

 

On blog.trekcore.com, the producer of this release Neil Bulk confirmed that this release was not taken from the 24 track, but rather a 3-track (left/center/right?) "film mix".  Although it's not yet clear to me where this came from, as he said it wasn't the rough stereo mix.

 

And now the producer answered my question.... "The 24-track was recorded in the event they needed to go back and re-mix. The 3-track mix was recorded live for use in the film. There was no indication that any cues were re-mixed from scratch from the 24-track. "

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17 minutes ago, Jay said:

So, to summarize, there are 4 elements considered 1st generation (every take of every cue):

  1. The 22-track multitrack stored directly on the 3M 1" digital (unused in 1982 and never used for any album since)
  2. The 22-track multitrack stored directly on the 2" analog tape (unused in 1982 and never used for any album since)
  3. The 3-track LCR live mix stored directly on the 3M 1" digital (used in 1982 to edit for the film and album, used to fill in some holes in the 2009 release)
  4. The 3-track LCR live mix stored directly on a 1/2" tape (unused in 1982, transferred recently, used as the primary source of the 2021 release)

And one element considered 2nd generation (only contains selected takes, and is a direct dub of a 1st generation element)

  1. Selected takes dubbed from the 3-track LCR live mix as captured by the 3M machine onto a 1/2" tape (unused in 1982, used as the primary source of the 2009 release, and for the album rebuild on the 2021 release)

I hope that makes sense!

 

Yes, thanks, that's much clearer (to me) than the articles I read.  :-)

 

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On 8/17/2021 at 10:32 AM, Tallguy said:

18. Genesis Countdown (Film Version) 6:38 - Wait, what? There's some editing that I've noticed around the time Kirk says "I need warp speed in three minutes..." but I would have thought that would have made the track shorter! Interesting.

 

19 hours ago, Tallguy said:

According to http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com I have two different versions of Genesis Countdown (album version / film version) already! Did anyone else know this?

 

19 hours ago, OneBuckFilms said:

Until that article I was unaware that we were dealing with different takes.

 

19 hours ago, Jay said:

I'm actually confused about "Genesis Countdown"

 

The difference between "Battle In The Mutara Nebula" is obvious.  Per the nice chart in the trekcore article, we know that the album version only used takes 131 and 134 (recorded on April 30th), while the film (and 2009 FSM CD and LLL main program) mix over that the overlay recorded as take 168 on May 3rd.  (and that take 169 from May 3rd was another potential overlay now appearing in the "Wild Orchestra" track).


But this chart indicates that both the album and film version of "Genesis Countdown" only use takes 10 and 12 from April 12th and that's it.  So, what's the difference?  I guess they used different portions of each take (IE, different edit points) from each other?

 

18 hours ago, OneBuckFilms said:

Would be interesting to know. It may come down to simply different edit points.

 

18 hours ago, Jay said:

Either that or the chart is wrong, yea

 

 

Neil explained this in the FSM thread:

 

"To cover up a technical problem on the digital recording, the album master briefly cuts to take 10. This noise is still audible in the movie proper and was not present on the 1/2" analog tapes."

 

 

So that explains why the chart indicates both versions only use takes 10 and 12:

 

1) They performance-edited the cue pulling from those 2 takes

2) A noise present during one part of take 12 therefore ended up in the film

3) For the original album, to avoid this noise, they briefly replaced that section pulled from take 12 with a section pulled from take 10

 

I guess that means you can still hear this noise on the 2009 release, since they used the 3M transfer as a source for that?  Of course, they might have used software to fix the noise, perhaps?

 

On the 2021 release, the noise is not present, because the noise was a result of a glitch with the 3M recording process, and therefore not present at all on the 1/2" tape source that was used to build the main program.  The album rebuild uses that take 10 section to be consistent with how the OST album was originally built.

 

 

Long story short,

 

-The version in the main program is the version James Horner wanted to be heard

-The version on the old OST album was a compromise because of a technical glitch in 1982.

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That 2" 22 track analog tape has 50th anniversary reissue written all over it ;)

 

I joke of course. There's probably very little if anything to be gained compared to the new 1/2" high res transfer.

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Sometimes going back to the original multitrack and making a new mix instead of using a stereo or LCR mix made at the time is done.

 

Mike Matessino famously (and splendidly) did this for both Close Encounters and Superman

 

Usually though, the original multitrack is ignored as long as a stereo or LCR mix made at the time is considered to be preserved well enough, which Neil must have decided was the case for TWOK.

 

 

 

~

It's worth noting that going back to the original multi-track is not always a guaranteed improvement.  For example, when Intrada got a license for Trevor Jones' Cliffhanger, they did not use the original 1993 mix and instead made a brand new mix from the multitrack.  Many people found this new mix to be a downgrade from the original mix.  Later, La-La Land Records got a license for this score, and Neil Bulk was selected as the producer of it.  He used the original 1993 mixes, and many people feel this is the best sounding version of Cliffhanger there is.

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Yep!

 

The only part I don't really understand is why they chose to rebuild the album from that 2nd generation source instead of re-creating it from the 1st generation source used for the rest of release.

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I was talking about the OST album rebuilt on disc 2 of the LLL release, not the old FSM release.

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Sorry, there's a lot of information. I might have lost something. I'll re-read...

Oh, the OST coming from 2nd gen tapes?

 

It's from the Album master, not the same 2nd gen tape.

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No, that's not true, it was from the 2nd gen element as I outlined above.

 

From the Trekmovie.com article:

 

Quote

“Everything on the score presentation is from the new high res tape transfers, and so are the bonus tracks. The original soundtrack album tracks are new transfers, but they’re the same tapes that we used for the Retrograde album.” Bulk said that the tracks were also fully remixed and remastered by Mike Matessino. “That specific album program has not been remastered since the first CD came out 30 years ago, so it felt like it was time to do it.”


From the Trekcore.com article:

 

Quote

Disc 1 of this collection presents the score in film order from the new hi-res transfers of the live ½” tapes. Disc 2 presents the original album from the ½” digital-to-analog safety reels, preserving work done in 1982. The additional music on disc 2 (apart from Craig Huxley’s “Genesis Project” which was sourced from the composer) is derived entirely from the ½” analog session tapes.

 

 

From the jameshorner-filmmusic.com article

 

Quote

The original album on disc 2 has been remixed from 3-track digital-analog stereo tapes made in 1982.

 

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21 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yep!

 

The only part I don't really understand is why they chose to rebuild the album from that 2nd generation source instead of re-creating it from the 1st generation source used for the rest of release.

I personally don't mind as it is interesting to hear the OST. Wasn't the original CD release botched somehow anyway? Reversed channels or whatever... Can't remember. 

 

Karol

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Of course it is interesting to hear the OST.  I didn't say the OST shouldn't have been included, I wondered out loud why they chose to rebuild it from the 2nd generation source instead of the 1st generation source they used for everything else.

 

I don't think there was anything botched about the old GNP release of the OST album on CD, but I could be wrong.

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The original GNP release….It was awful sounding with that faux 3D surround effect that ruined the stereo image. Made the whole listen very shrill and hollow. Just terrible.  

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Got it.

 

I haven't listened to that CD since the 2009 edition came out I don't think.

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

I don't think there was anything botched about the old GNP release of the OST album on CD, but I could be wrong.

Trent was talking about it when the 2009 was released. I believe Neil mentioned it a couple of times here as well. 

 

Karol

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Yes, it was just clarified 2 posts before yours :)

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Prior to the 2009 album, the only way to hear some of the OST cues without that 3D surround crap (called "B.A.S.E.") was to get an album called "Star Trek: The Astral Symphony"

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Star-Trek-The-Astral-Symphony/release/1057838
 

The reason I called it faux 3D surround is because the sound is what you get if you had old computer speakers or an old stereo / headphones with that 3D surround button / feature you could turn on and off. It made stereo music sound 'wider' by diffusing it to such a degree it was almost mono. Combine that with the shrill Dan Wallin recording and you get that GNP album's sound. So abrasive a listen. 
 

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I probably never had the equipment as a kid to notice anything wrong with that old CD; If I were to pull it off the shelf now and listen to it, I'd probably think it sounds bad!

 

The OST album per the samples on LLL's website of the new release sounds like it is certainly the best sounding version of that program ever released, for sure!

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26 minutes ago, NL197 said:

Prior to the 2009 album, the only way to hear some of the OST cues without that 3D surround crap (called "B.A.S.E.") was to get an album called "Star Trek: The Astral Symphony"

 

23 minutes ago, Jay said:

I probably never had the equipment as a kid to notice anything wrong with that old CD; If I were to pull it off the shelf now and listen to it, I'd probably think it sounds bad!

 

I had the GNP album and The Astral Symphony for years before the remastered Khan came out, and I didn't even know they sounded differently…

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Wow!  That was really cool!

 

What a shame they never recorded it!

Thank you for that!

 

Someone should sync that to the scene it was intended for!

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Had to be one of those outer space establishing shot flybys.

Collaborative effort, friend of mine and I mocking that up. 

 

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

Someone should sync that to the scene it was intended for!

 

I can do that, unless someone beats me to it. I'll use the original file I made, not a rip of that video. 

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Being 2M1, it'd be a scene after the Main Title (1M1) and before "Surprise on Ceti Alpha V" (2M2).

 

Actually being a reel 2 cue, it'd be a scene at least 7-10 minutes into the film.

 

Lukas Kendall once said on FSM:

 

"Incidentally, we later discovered that Horner wrote a very short (20-25 second cue) called "The Reliant," slated 2M1, I think for a Reliant flyby on its way to Ceti Alpha VI/V—but it was never recorded!"

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I am wondering about Spock's voice over. The GNP and the 2009 have a noticeable echo effect. The film does not.

 

I have had notable examples where my memory has been proven very wrong ("Close the blast doors" sounds exactly the way it did in 1977, but oddly not the way I remember it) but I seem to remember that this echo wasn't present on the record. My sketchy evidence is that 1) I don't remember hearing a difference between the film and the record in 1982 (or 83 when I got it on home video) and 2) when I got the GNP CD I still had the LP and listened to it somewhat regularly and I recall noticing the difference.

 

I brought this up in 2009 and Lukas politely told me I was wrong.

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