John Powell's HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON 2 (2014) - 2022 Varese Deluxe Edition

[scallenger 483]

13 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

We did get a proper lossless rip of the FYC eventually, but it is also missing 2m12 in addition to the Where No One Goes tracks, so even further reason for the official release to entice fans.

 

How did I NEVER notice that we had been missing an entire track this whole time! Yikes, not on my A-Game, clearly. Wasn't on the album either, I assume? That's exciting!

[HunterTech 994]

17 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I guess it depends on what edits were done to the cues for the film mix (ie, what would be on the FYC) and if you're fanatical enough to want those too alongside the complete score as originally recorded.

 

I was gonna also post about that, because it seems this has gone for the FYC versions of tracks, as the OST contains portions in various cues that don't show up in film. Moreso than the first score would you need both albums to have the most comprehensive set possible for the score.

 

7 minutes ago, scallenger said:

 

How did I NEVER notice that we had been missing an entire track this whole time! Yikes, not on my A-Game, clearly. Wasn't on the album either, I assume? That's exciting!

 

That's the one that pops out when comparing the tracklists. I remember being told that there were various bits that aren't on the FYC, but it seems likely that they're either minor inserts or stuff that got tracked from various cues.

[Holko 9,526]

18 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

I was gonna also post about that, because it seems this has gone for the FYC versions of tracks, as the OST contains portions in various cues that don't show up in film. Moreso than the first score would you need both albums to have the most comprehensive set possible for the score.

Huh?

[Jay 37,359]

So the final OST track called "Where No One Goes" is an album version of the song that is different than this release's track 3?

Or is it an album edit containing material from this release's tracks 3 and 34 together?

[HunterTech 994]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

So the final OST track called "Where No One Goes" is an album version of the song that is different than this release's track 3?

Or is it an album edit containing material from this release's tracks 3 and 34 together?

 

I assume the album version is the song as originally composed, while the two tracks on the DE are film specific versions designed to go with the picture.

[Holko 9,526]

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

Or is it an album edit containing material from this release's tracks 3 and 34 together?

Track 3 is the OST track with a different ending, 34 is the OST track with a different opening. I think they're the same vocals over partly the same orchestral takes but differently mixed?

[Jay 37,359]

 

1 minute ago, HunterTech said:

 

I assume the album version is the song as originally composed, while the two tracks on the DE are film specific versions designed to go with the picture.

 

OK so the band wrote a song, then Powell wrote some instrumental intros/outros to lead into / out of a portion of the song that made sense for the movie?

 

 

1 minute ago, Holko said:

Track 4 is the OST track with a different ending, 34 is the OST track with a different opening. I think they're the same vocals over partly the same orchestral takes but differently mixed?

 

Track 4?

[Holko 9,526]

3

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

OK so the band wrote a song, then Powell wrote some instrumental intros/outros to lead into / out of a portion of the song that made sense for the movie?

Powell's material (renditions of the Flying theme) play under the whole song.

[Jay 37,359]

OK so it sounds like it is a little strange they didn't put the album version of the song in the bonus track section here

 

Here's what I got - any mistakes?

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16tP9guNRQximflRug_ffMi8LVzmnrbBJLp3Rff2EKog

[scallenger 483]

The way I see it, with the two film versions of tracks you essentially have the OST version (sans possibly mixing differences). Like Holko said, track 03 on CD 01 the Deluxe Edition is essentially the album version (with its opening) but with a different (more thrilling and abrupt) ending. Track 09 on CD 02 has a instrumental-only extended opening, then leads into the song, with its OST ending.

[Jay 37,359]

OK, so the old album track essentially IS an edit of both of these versions?

[scallenger 483]

Yes, that is how I see it. Apart from possible mixing differences you still get the same music.

[Holko 9,526]

Let's take the album track as a basis - Jónsi vocals, a minimal band, Powell music with Flying Theme.

 

Track 3 - basically the first 2:00-2:10 of the OST track with a new ending, plus additional Flying Ostinato overlays on strings (or they were there all along but were dialed out for the OST)

 

Track 34 - starts with basically a Powell instrumental, goes into a unique bridge then continues as the album track from where the vocals start

 

You can take Track 3's opening up until maybe the end of the first vocal line, then switch to Track 34 to recreate the album track.

[scallenger 483]

Your first video says "not available".

[HunterTech 994]

23 minutes ago, Holko said:

Huh?

 

It's hard to tell, since the edit I have is a bit all over the place, but it seems at least some tracks are the more truncated versions on the FYC.

 

That being said: some other tracks are either longer or in-between both OST and FYC, so maybe I just need a different person examining the three sets so that I can be fully positive.

[Holko 9,526]

Correction - Track 3 has different strings in the opening too so I guess no, you can't exactly recreate a 100% album verison from these two.

[Jay 37,359]

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

You can take Track 3's opening up until maybe the end of the first vocal line, then switch to Track 34 to recreate the album track.

 

Brilliant, that's what I was looking for

 

Just now, Holko said:

Correction - Track 3 has different strings in the opening too so I guess no, you can't exactly recreate a 100% album verison from these two.

 

Oh.  Oh well.

[scallenger 483]

Well, I guess just hang onto the OST track then for those that want it. Was there ever a "single" release of the song? Heh. Personally, I prefer listening to the "reprise" the most anyway. That instrumental lead-in is so brilliant.

[Holko 9,526]

Also, Into a Fantasy is not here. Let's burn Varese and Powell do- ah who cares

[HunterTech 994]

The song for preschoolers? Oh how could I ever live without it!

[scallenger 483]

Yeah, I guess that song played in some foreign releases over the credits? Being in the US, I never even knew about that until years later, so I personally have no attachment to it haha. To my understanding it wasn't made "for the film", right?

[Jay 37,359]

Huh I never heard of it either

 

 

[crocodile 8,012]

Oh yeah, that was included on the European CD album.

 

Karol

[scallenger 483]

So I guess if one is still going to own the OST, get the European release to have BOTH songs.

[crocodile 8,012]

6 minutes ago, scallenger said:

So I guess if one is still going to own the OST, get the European release to have BOTH songs.

And the jewel case.

 

By the way, you can find it very cheap anywhere in the UK. The Amazon prices are even lower. It was released here by Sony Classical.

 

Karol

[TSMefford 1,509]

Ordered!

[crumbs 14,314]

Awesome, can't wait to pick this up!!

 

Hopefully the third score follows suit in the next few years, would love to complete the set

 

It's great how Powell introduces a suite of memorable new themes in each score. And I think the new themes in the third score are the best of the whole trilogy. It's definitely a superb OST presentation though; nothing feels missing from a musical narrative standpoint.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Ordered of course!

 

As with the first score, I'll probably tweak the assembly a little bit to suit my own tastes. For example I don't like how the insert for the film version of Dragon Races is being released on its own without the rest of the cue. I know it's the only alternate part, but I don't think I'll be able to make a satisfying edit of the full cue with the film opening using just this new album. My existing personal edit of the score includes both versions in full, with the film version as Track 1 and the album version as the last track, which always made sense to me since the latter version is played in the end credits anyway.

 

Skimming down a little, I'm delighted to see we're getting both film version of the Jonsi song! Also, it looks like there's a whole cue that I didn't even realize I've been missing all these years -- 2m12 Dragon's Lair. So that's pretty cool! I'm another one of those who's a little disappointed that we aren't getting a true, complete instrumental version of the Courting Song, but I can't say I'm really surprised. I don't know if it's a bass or an electric guitar that was added to the climactic bits of Challenging the Alpha in the film mix, but that was one of my favorite discoveries on the FYC and I sure hope that's the mix that's being released here!

 

Last thought before I go to bed I guess -- I see the disc split is in the middle of the battle. That's kind of a counterintuitive assembly choice, but honestly, I think it'll work pretty well since the big percussive stinger at the end of Battle of the Bewilderbeast can serve as a sort of musical cliffhanger, then you pop in Disc 2 and the music will go immediately balls to the wall with the string ostinato that opens Hiccup Confronts Drago. God I love that cue.

 

This album cannot get delivered fast enough!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Hey A.A. RON....

Did I tell you I tought high-school  in the inner city?

[HunterTech 994]

13 hours ago, Jay said:

Here's what I got - any mistakes?

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16tP9guNRQximflRug_ffMi8LVzmnrbBJLp3Rff2EKog

The original opening to 1m1 is what's used for the OST. So the DE would be the official release of the film opening.

 

Other than that: 1m5, 2m11, 4m36-37, and 4m38 supposedly have some unique section differences on the OST from the FYC, but I haven't been able to fully check what they are. 3m20, 3m22, and 4m33 are also supposed to either be very different mixes or outright alt takes as well. I guess this'll be much easier to sort once the person whom I got all this info from or someone else very familiar with the score looks at the DE.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

12 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

As with the first score, I'll probably tweak the assembly a little bit to suit my own tastes. For example I don't like how the insert for the film version of Dragon Races is being released on its own without the rest of the cue.

 

Last thought before I go to bed I guess -- I see the disc split is in the middle of the battle. That's kind of a counterintuitive assembly choice, but honestly, I think it'll work pretty well since the big percussive stinger at the end of Battle of the Bewilderbeast can serve as a sort of musical cliffhanger, then you pop in Disc 2 and the music will go immediately balls to the wall with the string ostinato that opens Hiccup Confronts Drago. God I love that cue

 

I prefer how Dragon Races is presented as I prefer the album opening. There wouldn't be a lot of point in putting the entire cue on twice just to present a different opening.

 

For the disc split, perhaps Battle of the Bewilderbeast could've gone at the start of the second disc, but it's only going to potentially bother those who put CDs inside a CD player to listen, and I find myself short of empathy for such ultra first-world problems  

[Jay 37,359]

Just now, Richard Penna said:

There wouldn't be a lot of point in putting the entire cue on twice just to present a different opening.

 

Of course there would, that's how any competent album producer would do it!

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I was mainly talking about in context of putting the film and album versions next to each other. If you relegated the album version to the end, then yes, perhaps.

 

Could we perhaps avoid using 'competent' and related terms when it comes to discussing arrangement decisions? It saddens me that we're routinely accusing producers of being incompetent when often they just make decisions we don't always agree with.

 

I listened to the FYC in the car today - I was reminded of how well the Alpha, Valka and Drago themes are introduced amongst the existing themes. There's also another motif that I think I heard bits of in Valka's Dragon Sanctuary which reappeared later on, but  wasn't sure what it represented.

[Jay 37,359]

Oh yea, of course I was referring to an edit with the replacement opening opening the main program, and the original untouched cue with the old opening being in the bonus tracks - I certainly not suggesting both entire cues be presented back to back to start the main program

 

I'm not sure I follow you about the competent producers thing with regards to this album - there is no real album programming done here at all, it's a direct dump of every cue in its own track in chronological order.  It's similar to the Rogue One Deluxe in that regard.

 

I completely agree with you that album producers who make decisions we don't like should not be called incompetent, but in this case I don't actually see any album producing work being done, it's just a dump of the material.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

It strikes me that mostly, the more 'arranged' expansions are just taking the smaller cues and joining them to longer adjacent ones. IOW, the strict listening experience is exactly the same if you don't look at when the physical track is changing.

 

Sometimes the odd non-chronological move, but I'm not sure that an organised 'album' of this would look that different.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

47 minutes ago, Jay said:

Oh yea, of course I was referring to an edit with the replacement opening opening the main program, and the original untouched cue with the old opening being in the bonus tracks - I certainly not suggesting both entire cues be presented back to back to start the main program

 

I'm not sure I follow you about the competent producers thing with regards to this album - there is no real album programming done here at all, it's a direct dump of every cue in its own track in chronological order.  It's similar to the Rogue One Deluxe in that regard.

 

I completely agree with you that album producers who make decisions we don't like should not be called incompetent, but in this case I don't actually see any album producing work being done, it's just a dump of the material.

I thought that was your preference, Jay.

When I complain about this type of release you praise it?

[Jay 37,359]

I don't understand what you mean at all - have you ever seen a post of mine anywhere where I praised any release of any kind of music for having no album production done?  Of course not, because that would make no sense.

 

While I can personally enjoy hearing Inserts with their own clean openings/endings if we get them via a leak or an album that released them that way (which only really happens if there is no room to repeat the cue,or the album producer doesn't know what they're doing like when Bouzereau put the "Escaping The Pit' insert into its own track and didn't even include the rest of the original "Escaping The Pit" cue anywhere in the box set at all).  But my preference is always to include a cue that has an Insert twice on an expanded edition album, once without the insert and once with it properly edited in.  And that is what I am saying should have happened here, just like HTTYD1 - the album producer should have edited the new opening into the rest of the original cue to start the main program, and then included the full original cue in the bonus tracks.

 

Of course I've observed you complaining that some new expanded edition our beloved specialty labels announce as being a "collection of cues" but you are always wrong with that assessment, as our labels always put thought into every release they put out.  I don't share any of your common complaints about short cues being a problem, or the # of discs of a release having fuck-all to do with how good or bad the album is going to be when I listen to it. 

 

I want every film score catalog release to include everything recorded, and I also want thought put into how to present all the material.  These two things are not mutually exclusive; There is never a reason to drop music from a release because it ruins the flow, the solution is always to put such music in the bonus track area instead if the producer feels that way about a cue.

 

Long story short, great album producers like Mike Matessino, Neil Bulk, etc always make all these considerations when producing their albums.  Whoever produced the Rogue One deluxe did not, and there seems to have also been very little of these thoughts put into the HTTYD1 and 2 Deluxes either.  Luckily Powell's music is so good that these minor quibbles are easily overcome, but that doesn't mean there's no merit in pointing it out.

[Edmilson 7,441]

18 minutes ago, Jay said:

want every film score catalog release to include everything recorded, and I also want thought put into how to present all the material.  These two things are not mutually exclusive; There is never a reason to drop music from a release because it ruins the flow, the solution is always to put such music in the bonus track area instead if the producer feels that way about a cue.

 

Long story short, great album producers like Mike Matessino, Neil Bulk, etc always make all these considerations when producing their albums.  Whoever produced the Rogue One deluxe did not, and there seems to have also been very little of these thoughts put into the HTTYD1 and 2 Deluxes either.  Luckily Powell's music is so good that these minor quibbles are easily overcome, but that doesn't mean there's no merit in pointing it out.

100% agree

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Your response is way too long.

Please whittle it down if you want me to read it.

😎

[Princeling1987 22]

I made a recap of HTTYD 2 themes a few months ago:

 

New Themes

 

Adventure Longing Theme

·        02 Together We Map The World 0:03, 0:38, 0:48, 1:30, 2:08, 4:12

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming 1:40, 2:17

·        04 Toothless Lost 0:06

·        06 Valka's Dragon Sanctuary 0:48, 2:19

·        10 Flying with Mother 0:45, 1:45

·        14 Stoick Saves Hiccup 0:50

Lost and Found Theme

·        04 Toothless Lost 1:30, 2:12

·        05 Should I Know You? 1:45

·        07 Losing Mom/Meet the Good Alpha 0:37

·        09 Stoick Finds Beauty 1:15,  2:05

·        10 Flying with Mother 0:04, 0:25, 1:20, 2:11

·        14 Stoick Saves Hiccup 0:01

·        17 Toothless Found 0:40, 1:38, 2:36, 2:56

·        18 Two New Alphas 0:34, 0:56, 1:27, 1:43

Alpha

·        07 Losing Mom/Meet the Good Alpha 1:50, 2:21

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 0:04, 3:02, 5:34

·        18 Two New Alphas A Phrase 2:54, 3:23

 

Valka Theme

·        04 Toothless Lost 1:04, 1:47, 2:45, 3:45

·        05 Should I Know You? 0:01

·        06 Valka's Dragon Sanctuary 0:03

 

Drago Theme

·        08 Meet Drago 0:08, 0:55, 1:51, 3:39

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 4:13

·        13 Hiccup Confronts Drago 1:13, 2:12

·        18 Two New Alphas 0:03

 

Drago Threat Theme

·        08 Meet Drago 1:41, 2:31, 3:30

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 1:09, 5:51

 

Stoïk and Valka Theme

·        11 For the Dancing and the Dreaming 0:01, well pretty much the whole track

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 5:02

·        13 Hiccup Confronts Drago 0:02, 0:17

·        15 Stoick's Ship 0:10, pretty much the whole track

·        18 Two New Alphas 4:42

 

Hiccup Adult Responsibility Theme

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming 0:02, 4:23

·        04 Toothless Lost 0:28

·        09 Stoick Finds Beauty

·        18 Two New Alphas 5:16

 

Returning Themes from HTTYD 1

 

Hiccup and Toothless / Flight / Main Theme A and B Phrase

·        01 Dragon Racing A Phrase 0:05, B Phrase 0:42

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming A Phrase 1:44

·        05 Should I Know You? 0:45, 1:44

·        06 Valka's Dragon Sanctuary A Phrase 2 :30

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast A Phrase 2:23, B Phrase 2:49 ; B Phrase 3:42

·        15 Stoick's Ship B Phrase 3:15

·        16 Alpha Comes to Berk  A Phrase 1:08, B Phrase 1:38

·        17 Toothless Found 3:27

·        18 Two New Alphas A Phrase 5:43

Viking Fun Theme

·        01 Dragon Racing 0:26, 1:19, 1:53, 3:28, 4:19

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming 3:12

·        16 Alpha Comes to Berk 1:30, 2:01

Viking Warrior Theme (Stoick Theme)

·        01 Dragon Racing 3:45

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming 3:45

·        05 Should I Know You? 1:05

·        06 Valka's Dragon Sanctuary 0:48, 3:03

·        09 Stoick Finds Beauty 0:27

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 5:25, 5:54

·        13 Hiccup Confronts Drago 1:57

·         

Viking Aspirational Tune / Enlightenment / Winds of Change

·        01 Dragon Racing 2:03

·        08 Meet Drago 2:47

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 1:29

·        18 Two New Alphas 3:52, 4 :25

 

Love Theme (Astrid Theme)

·        01 Dragon Racing 4:02

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming 0:43

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 2:09

·        18 Two New Alphas 4:57

·         

Dragon Theme

·        02 Together We Map The World 1:03

·        07 Losing Mom/Meet the Good Alpha 0:08

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 0:33

·        13 Hiccup Confronts Drago 2:34

·        18 Two New Alphas 2:01

Friendship Arpeggio

·        01 Dragon Racing 2:15

·        02 Together We Map The World 1:18

·        03 Hiccup The Chief/Drago's Coming 0:22, 2:06, 2:45

·        11 For the Dancing and the Dreaming 0:35

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 2:37

·        13 Hiccup Confronts Drago 3:34

·        15 Stoick's Ship 3:15

·        17 Toothless Found 2:13, 2:48

Fate Theme / Hope For The Future

·        01 Dragon Racing 2:18

Viking Fighting Theme

·        01 Dragon Racing 3:05

·        12 Battle of the Bewilderbeast 5:05

·        17 Toothless Found 3:11

·        18 Two New Alphas 1:39

 

I'll update it after listening to the expanded edition.

 

Powell is a genius and I'm so disapointed that he is not as active as he used to be.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I don't really see the treatment of the alternate openings as representative of a lack of album production. Perhaps Powell just decided that he thought hearing both versions in sequence was a nice way to open the album, and that therefore naturally only one version of the bulk of the cue was needed.

 

Also, both scores have so minimal alternate material that simply presenting both versions side by side is just another way to do it.

 

The rest of both releases being just a dump of cues... technically they are, but again, that's down to whether there would be genuine creative reasons for joining or moving cues, that weren't just done for the sake of it. I've seen releases that are not considered 'collections of cues', where literally all that's been done is joining some cues together, making the tracklist a bit shorter. That's it.

[Jay 37,359]

Yea and I don't know HTTYD2 very well yet, but in the case of HTTYD1, just keeping every cue in its own track and keeping them all in chronological order worked wonderfully!  That release is fantastic, it sounds great and I've listened to it many many many times since it came out.  I just listen to a version with the opening track fixed

 

There are many other scores, though, where certain cues were written intending to overlap with another cue, and when good album producers re-create those overlaps it can be so satisfying, and when they do not can be so frustrating.  Like all those Temple of Doom cues that Williams wrote specifically to dovetail into the next cue, that Bouzereau just left hanging.

 

Of course the opposite is also true, where two cues that were not meant to connect get overlapped for no reason, that is an example of an album producer caring enough to make a decision, that I might not agree with - like the first Intrada release of Predator where they very aggressively overlapped a ton of cues, sometimes so much that material was lost in the editing process.  They listened to fan feedback and released a second album with many of those overlaps undone, which was great!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

11 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I don't really see the treatment of the alternate openings as representative of a lack of album production. Perhaps Powell just decided that he thought hearing both versions in sequence was a nice way to open the album, and that therefore naturally only one version of the bulk of the cue was needed.

 

Also, both scores have so minimal alternate material that simply presenting both versions side by side is just another way to do it.

 

The rest of both releases being just a dump of cues... technically they are, but again, that's down to whether there would be genuine creative reasons for joining or moving cues, that weren't just done for the sake of it. I've seen releases that are not considered 'collections of cues', where literally all that's been done is joining some cues together, making the tracklist a bit shorter. That's it.

Compare the most recent version of RAIN MAN to the first score only release.

The second one joins short cues vastly improving the listenability.

DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL is another one.

Compare programme of  the VS rerecording to the Kritzerland.

The latter is much better!

[Jay 37,359]

12 minutes ago, Princeling1987 said:

I made a recap of HTTYD 2 themes a few months ago:

 

It looks like you attempted to manually indent things under each heading; On this board, all you have to do is click the "bulleted list" button to have the system indent for you!

 

 

 

[scallenger 483]

My only critique of how the alternate openings are done for both films echos what everyone is saying, especially since you can't simply swamp them out. Like let's say you wanted the film version opening and the rest of the track, you'd have to do it editorially using a sound editor. It'd be simple, sure... but that's why they should have just had the full track as an alternate on Disc 2.

 

Personally though, I don't care so much since I do prefer the original versions. And the film version music IS included, so it's not like it is missing. However, we can all take comfort that unless there is an unknown alternate, the opening of the third film matches the album.

[Jay 37,359]

Huh, you prefer the original opening for HTTYD1 over the re-write?  Wow, for me, the revised opening is one of my favorite moments in the entire score!

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Me too! The alternate version with its sudden and heavy intro just doesn't work. The film version is much better at slowly, mysteriously setting the scene.

 

That said, I prefer the alternate opening for Dragon Races. I like its more upbeat start now that we're into the franchise.

[Jay 37,359]

Agreed, it's just too dark of a way to open the film / score.  The revision is perfect.

[scallenger 483]

Yeah, but I agree that I do LOVE the film version for the first film, too. It's honestly almost equal. But for the second film I definitely prefer the original version, like not a contest at all haha.

 

I will also say that hearing the alternates back to back for each release, as different as they are, they are also similar enough where it DOES sound repetitive. I just think the choice simply doesn't work to put them together like this, and when I listen to the first film's DE I definitely put it at the end.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

It's been ages since I saw the 2nd film, but is it conceivable that the 'original' opening for #2 is something Powell did for the album? It has that feel to it for me, especially given that the whole track is largely a concert piece for all of the first film's themes.