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I'm fairly certain the "2nd" ending in Duel Of the Fates was added a later date - later recording session that is


InTheCity
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one can tell this just by listening - one doesn't need the sheet music or the youtube video to find out why

 

I'll leave this spoiler free to see if anyone can figure out why this is the case 

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I’m just speculating here, as I do not have any details on the takes/recording sessions. But probabbly not something added latter to the composition itself, but an edit of different takes - in this case maybe the last portion could even be part of an earlier take.

 

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Please note there is a difference in material used for this track if you are talking about the 1999 edit used for the OST album and the film's end credits, vs Shawn Murphy's new edit used for the current release of the OST album available by Disney Records since 2018.

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40 minutes ago, Jay said:

Please note there is a difference in material used for this track if you are talking about the 1999 edit used for the OST album and the film's end credits, vs Shawn Murphy's new edit used for the current release of the OST album available by Disney Records since 2018.

Can you please elaborate on that?

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I hadn’t been paying attention.  I bought the ROTS one because of the war drums being added, but TPM and AOTC have different takes, etc. too?  Might have to find cheap copies.

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Thanks Jay. I’ve compared both the ‘99 OST and the 2018 release and the timpani shifts position on both. At 3:13 it’s on the right and 4:04 it’s on the left. 
 

I listened again and those two solo moments for timpani are the only time I really hear timpani in the piece. Mostly I hear the ritual/tribal drums (or whatever he labels it in the score). It’s possible they could have recorded those isolated timpani moments at a later session and then panned it wherever they wanted to when they patched it in. 

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Here are some posts describing the problems with the 2018 prequel demasters

 

 

On 5/2/2018 at 12:32 PM, voltisubito said:

There's an interesting difference I noticed in Duel of the Fates at around 2:55 onwards. In the 1999 OST, the trumpets (in octaves) play on the offbeat a figure that is repeated once; in the new remaster, the line seems entirely different (not sure if it's been remixed or from another take) - the trumpet sounds the lower notes then rises up the minor triad on the repeat.

 

On 5/2/2018 at 7:10 PM, voltisubito said:

I hadn't noticed before how the timps are mixed hard left on some cues, and centre/right on others. By far the most marked difference is in Augie's Municipal Band, which now sounds more bizarre than ever. The synthesized sound of this cue is more apparent, is quite dry and has minimal reverb in comparison to the 1999 OST.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 10:51 AM, crumbs said:

Were those timpani percussion overlays on the original OST version of Anakin's Dark Deeds?!

 

On 5/3/2018 at 10:51 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Is it just my imagination (also not wearing headphones) or did they add the war drums to "Boys Into Battle"?

 

Also on "Anakin vs Obi-Wan"

 

On 5/3/2018 at 10:59 AM, crumbs said:

And yes! They've added the timpani overlays into Boys Into Battle! Very interesting...

 

On 5/3/2018 at 11:05 AM, Alan said:

They've used the film take for Boys Into Battle. The more distinctive brass at 1:56 on the OST isn't there this time. 

 

On 5/3/2018 at 3:36 PM, Lockdown said:

Just compare Love and Pledge or Across the Stars to any of the previous releases. Also, in RotS when the main titles ends and leads into the film, compare that to previous releases too..the differences are insane. 

 

On 5/3/2018 at 3:51 PM, MikeH said:

The Rhodes keyboard solo in Anakin and Padmé is definitely more centered and present in this new mix. In the Clones OST it was panned left and had a more organic quality since it was pushed further into the ensemble. 

 

Listening to the new Prequel mixes I can definitely hear the electronics more, where before they were less obvious and felt more acoustic. 

 

On 5/3/2018 at 4:08 PM, Chewy said:

image.png

This little digital noise happens for every percussion hit they let in the mix in the "Boys Into The Battle" cue on ROTS. Again, very noticeable... Good job

 

On 5/3/2018 at 4:27 PM, Chewy said:

ROTS: Padme's Ruminations. The transition to "Palpatine Instructs Anakin" was done poorly as you can see:

 

image.png

 

Seems like there is some hiss at the end of the Padme's cue that they forgot to filter so we can actually hear 7 seconds of hiss (ala AOTC) at the beginning of "Palpatine Instructs Anakin". The hiss stops abruptly after these 7 seconds which makes it really noticeable.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 2:08 AM, MikeH said:

Yikes, that cross-fade at 3:15 on the first track of ROTS is....yikes!  The clarity is better though, especially with the snare drums. 

 

On 5/4/2018 at 2:24 AM, Drew said:

You're right that there are some new overlays in Anakin's Dark Deeds. If they did exist in the original album, then this is an extreme change (and an epic one).

 

And speaking of Anakin's Dark Deeds, the now badly-edited transition at 3:30 is just begging for the expanded part to be released at this point...

 

The keyboard heard in the remastered cue barely even sounds like a celeste now. Lol.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:42 AM, crumbs said:

Probably already brought up, but 2:55 of Duel of the Fates is missing the brass hits between choral chants? WTF? How did that get missed.

 

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33 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I hadn’t been paying attention.  I bought the ROTS one because of the war drums being added, but TPM and AOTC have different takes, etc. too?  Might have to find cheap copies.

 

They didn't even add all of the war drums! Only did it for a cue or two.

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On 5/4/2018 at 1:31 PM, Jay said:

2 Duel of the Fates (4:14)

 

Yea, this is just wrong.  Starts out fine enough, then the brass starts to sound weird (well, maybe that's just  my headphones).  But then from 2:55-3:01, we get the version recorded instead how Williams actually assembled the final cue for release (which was to track in 3:55-4:01 from the cue in over this spot, which makes this part of the track a bit more epic). 

 

On 5/4/2018 at 3:02 PM, Jay said:

12 Panaka and the Queen's Protectors (3:24)


The microedit that cuts out the cool Duel of the Fates bit towards the beginning of Take To Your Ships is AWFUL here!  It was fine originally, yikes.  The transition from Take To Your Ships into The Big Army, and from there into You're Under Arrest are ok I guess.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:50 PM, Jay said:

14 The Droid invasion and The appearance of Darth Maul (5:14)

 

Drum Insert sound good, and the segue into The Armies Face Off is OK.    The segue into The Droid Invasion is fine, too.  But something sounds... off about this cue.  Wrong take?  The two microedits that remove portions of the cue are a bit clumsy, as is the segue into Tentacles.  The segue from this into Forest Mist doesn't seem right either.   Nothing wrong with the segue from that into Darth Sidious, though.   Oh man, the ending bit where it segues from Darth Sidious into a bit of tracked Duel of the Fates is COMPLETELY wrong!

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:50 PM, Jay said:

15 Qui-Gob's Noble End (3:48)

 

Brass DOTF opening sounds OK, as does the segue from that into Escape From Naboo.  The brass seems a bit off though.  The segue into Qui-Gon's Noble End is abrupt and jarring!  The sanskrit whispers seem louder than ever before?

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Jay said:

17 Augie's Great Municipal Band and End credits (9:37)

 

Well.  Augie's is certainly completely different than the prior album version.  It's instantly obvious in the opening seconds!  The synths are all different throughout.

 

On 5/5/2018 at 8:33 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

One of the tracks that struck me the most with ROTS was Padme's Ruminations. On the original album, there's a decent amount of reverb being used, especially on the female singer. Here there is none; so there is this bizarre echo/delay effect being used on the singer that I never really noticed before. It just sounds strange to me personally.

 

On 5/6/2018 at 6:43 AM, aj_vader said:

Wow, anyone heard the disappearing cymbal during the droid march? 

 

The Phantom Menace - Track 14 - The Droid Invasion (2.48)

 

On 5/6/2018 at 3:39 PM, JTWfan77 said:

I've sampled the middle bit of AotC Chase Through Coruscant and have to say I do not like this new remaster at all. The stereo separation is completely exaggerated and the individual elements of the orchestra sound fragmented (it's almost ping-pong bad). Much prefer the warmth and soundstaging of the original CD, so much more involving to listen to.

 

On 5/7/2018 at 1:03 AM, Breadstick Basilisk said:

OK, this is awful. Sorry if I'm late to the party in bringing this up (?), but has anyone noticed the absolutely horrendous edit in the first track of ROTS? For comparison, here's the original mix (3:14 in both versions):

 

And here's the 2018 remaster:

 

Until I became acquainted with the ROTS score, as a youngster I actually assumed that that spot—the cut to what I later learned to be called "They're Coming Around"—was how it was recorded. I knew nothing about microedits and such; as a soundtrack novice, I thought that since the OST tracks differed from what was in the film, they must have been recorded specifically for the OST. The editing was that good, especially in this spot.

 

Not so, in the 2018 version! Sounds like somebody literally pulled the "Boys Into Battle" volume slider down with their finger. The original mix was great because they actually held over the pitch into the new cue, and didn't taper it off until the trumpets had come in with their lick. So in addition to the drums, you had this note that sounded entirely natural; it fit like a glove and like gave the illusion that it was all written that way.

 

But this on the other hand is some of the shoddiest editing work I've ever heard. A real shame, too, as the actual mix of the instruments sounds fantastic, in the prequels at least! But yeah, I was listening to this track and the abrupt volume drop really took me out of the moment. :(

 

On 5/7/2018 at 2:02 PM, Jay said:

Just listen to 3:11-3:19 of "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith" on the old OST and new OST remaster back to back.

 

On 5/7/2018 at 4:21 PM, Jay said:

The Phantom Menace features a bunch of moments that take you out of your immersion into the album, because all of a sudden you're hearing new edits or new takes of things that you've been used to being another way for almost 20 years.  It mostly SOUNDS good though, and if the edits can be cleaned up by fans using the old release, we could have the definitive version of the album pretty quickly.  At the very least, I suppose fan edits can be enhanced with the new clarify available here.

 

Attack of the Clones - Man, I was assuming the hiss that plagued the OST album would be gone, but to me it sounded even more hissy than I remembered the OST originally sounding.  What happened her exactly?  I also noticed some synth bells towards the end of Return to Tatooine that I don't remember ever hearing before.  The Impoerial March insert in the final track was not integrated as smoothly as it was in 2002.  

 

On 7/21/2018 at 9:49 PM, Locrius said:

One of my biggest issues with this set is not so much the sound quality (of the PT at least), but the takes that were used to assemble it all. I don't know if Shawn Murphy and co. just don't have as sharp of hearing as Williams when it comes to orchestral performance quality,  or what—if they do, then they willfully overlooked several noticeable flubs in the takes they chose to use, for some reason unbeknownst to me. For example, the trumpet blip at 4:17 in "Passage Through the Planet Core". Or how about the French horn at 2:18 in "The Sith Spacecraft and the Droid Battle".

 

These are errors that weren't even present on the original 1999 TPM OST album. So it just seems like a one-step-forward-two-steps-back situation to me—sure, the sound quality is better, but the performance quality is worse. I guess it all depends on if the listener cares more about minor improvements on sound quality than they do about missed notes, but for me it can be hard to ignore audible mistakes. After listening to these takes, it feels like Williams chose his original 1999 takes with good reason—those takes should have been the ones used again.

 

Also, 3:14 in "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith" is quite possibly one of the worst crossfade editing jobs I've ever heard. Far inferior to the original 2005 album; what were they thinking?!

 

On 9/16/2018 at 9:04 AM, Alan said:

the HISS on Attack of the Clones is impossible to ignore. I didn't hear it so much on the Spotify stream but in lossless it's as clear if not more so than on the original CD pressing.

 

There are times, like after the DotF statement in Return to Tatooine where it becomes louder than the actual music for a few moments before settling back in to a still very audible background noise.

 

On 9/16/2018 at 3:45 PM, Guest said:

Here is a spectrogram view of "Return to Tatooine". All of that purple is hiss. I've never seen anything like this before.Untitled-1.jpg

 

For comparison, here is a track from ROTS. This is how a normal spectrogram should look.Untitled-2.jpg

 

On 9/16/2018 at 5:46 PM, Holko said:

let's refer to these as Demastered from now on.

 

On 9/17/2018 at 2:17 PM, Guest said:

Nope, they are both the new 192/24 releases.

 

THIS is the 44.1/16 CD rip. It's not as clear, as the frequency is obviously cut off at 22kHz per channel, but it's still visibly noisier than ROTS. (The top one is AOTC):

Untitled-1.jpg

 

In addition, here is the original 2002 release versus the new remaster. Yikes.Untitled-2.jpg

 

On 1/16/2019 at 7:34 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

The prequels sounded relatively good until I got to 5:46 of Love Pledge and The Arena. Dafuq is that? Some weird phasing going on. How did no one in QA notice that?

 

On 5/19/2020 at 2:31 PM, Tydirium said:

I still can't get over this awful fade-out at 3:14:

 

 

What were they thinking?? The original 2005 release is seamless, but this sounds so unnatural.

 

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Don't forget the trombones phasing here... 

 

 

what happened on these releases!!? 

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14 minutes ago, aj_vader said:

Don't forget the trombones phasing here... 

 

Woah, that's bad

 

14 minutes ago, aj_vader said:

what happened on these releases!!? 

 

A lack of oversight, no quality control, an abundance of yes men, nobody's heart really being in the project...

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Imagine if Mondo's next Williams vinyl after the Hook OST newly rebuilt by Matessino, is one by one all six original Star Wars OST albums newly rebuilt by Matessino...

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It was somewhat interesting to hear the drier mixes on the Prequels, but these three scores really do sound better and “bigger” with the healthy amount of reverb they were originally mastered with. 

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Just now, MikeH said:

It was somewhat interesting to hear the drier remixes on the Prequels, but these three scores really do sound better and “bigger” with the healthy amount of reverb they were originally mastered with. 

 

I must admit I quite loved the new sound of the Augie Municipal band track... but it was only a summer fling.

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Releases like these demasters actually make things harder for Mike to do a proper release in the future.


Now, instead of only having the OST albums, and what's heard in the film itself, to make sure he factors into everything he is doing with the sound and assembly, now there's all these wrong takes that are now officially released to potentially feel like must be included to to be comprehensive, let alone the different sound mix as well.

 

If Disney had just hired Mike instead of Shawn Murphy to do these OST album rebuilds, they would have sounded consistent and had no wrong takes anywhere, and a future expansion project wouldn't be needlessly complicated...

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12 hours ago, danbeck said:

I’m just speculating here, as I do not have any details on the takes/recording sessions. But probabbly not something added latter to the composition itself, but an edit of different takes - in this case maybe the last portion could even be part of an earlier take.

 

Lets use our common sense here, engineers like to set up once - there is a 0 percent chance that the setup would involve the timpani moving in the middle of a session, or in the middle of a day - 0 percent chance. 

SM prefers his timpani off to a side, therefore we can infer the session was probably later - also having two endings for JW is atypical - this was probably an add on because they added more picture or something 

 

As a further example: we can assume  the Jurassic Park cues with the Taiko Drum ( like the opening title) and African percussion "jungle" were recorded at the same session - I'd assume the Jungle layering which happens a few time was an overdub at lunch or later in the afternoon etc..

this is the way sessions work

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Wasn't the percussion recorded seperately? At least there are versions of cues with less and more percussion.

1 hour ago, InTheCity said:

having two endings for JW is atypical - this was probably an add on because they added more picture or something 

 

 

Yeah, they added a few more names to the credits lol

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4 hours ago, Permanent Waves said:

Wasn't the percussion recorded seperately? At least there are versions of cues with less and more percussion.

 

Nope, just the choir was recorded separately. The cues with alternate percussion (i.e "Take Off" and "Anakin Defeats Sebulba") are full alternate takes, as the orchestra performance is also slightly different.

 

5 hours ago, InTheCity said:

this was probably an add on because they added more picture or something

 

Duel of the Fates was recorded as an end credits suite so I'm not sure how well that theory would hold up... Plus the full cue is present in the sheets, so it doesn't seem likely it was a late addition. Still strange.

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I had no idea about all those differences. I listened to them once ever during an 8 hour car ride so my focus wasn't as good as it could have been.

 

Why even go through all the effort when those were obviously just glorified reissues dressed up as being remastered? 

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The recording labels don't have "ressources" anymore, all the work is given to subcontractors!

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27 minutes ago, Bespin said:

The recording labels don't have "ressources" anymore, all the work is given to subcontractors!

Haha true. Then it comes down to money to pay those subcontractors and my comments still stand in that context.

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There's distortion in places on Revenge of the Sith - especially in Battle of the Heroes in the end credits. It sounds like static or the sound of the mix distorting when it's too loud. 

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7 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 

 

 

While that's a noble goal and I'm sure everyone approached the project with the best of intentions, it does seem amazing that Disney who could, let's face it, has the clout and resources to employ the best music engineers, producers and restorers, plus give them the best equipment and plentiful time to produce the best versions of things. Yet somehow LLL, Intrada, Quartet etc. who have limited budgets to actually pay MM, let alone the resources to own/hire whatever equipment is required, yet do amazing work. I don't know how a company like Disney (and other big studios/record labels) can do such amazingly half arsed jobs. We're almost lucky that so many of the scores we love fly under the radar so they are picked up by the speciality labels. It's almost a miracle that LLL got Harry Potter, for example... I can't imagine Warners Music (or whatever branch of that empire it is) doing such a great job with those scores based on how Star Wars, Indy etc etc. has been treated.

 

So basically they treated it like they treat the movies. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have a question about how Duel of the Fates was used in the finished movie.

 

For the final cut, Lucas had changed the movie so much from what Williams scored, he ended up not using the cue JW wrote for the lightsaber battle (6M7 The Great Dual) but rather an edit of Duel of the Fates, which JW recorded not for that scene but for the end credits. So, when I watch TPM, the music that plays during most of the duel is the concert version of Duel of the Fates. 

 

Is this correct or incorrect?

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On 9/11/2021 at 8:22 PM, Edmilson said:

I have a question about how Duel of the Fates was used in the finished movie.

 

For the final cut, Lucas had changed the movie so much from what Williams scored, he ended up not using the cue JW wrote for the lightsaber battle (6M7 The Great Dual) but rather an edit of Duel of the Fates, which JW recorded not for that scene but for the end credits. So, when I watch TPM, the music that plays during most of the duel is the concert version of Duel of the Fates. 

 

Is this correct or incorrect?

Yes

 

Also The Great Duel was just for the segment when Obi-Wan is seperated from Qui-Gon.

 

Either other cues would cover the earlier sections (potentially "The Fight Begins" and "The Droid Battle"), or they already planned to track in DOTF somewhat.

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Also, some of "The Great Dual [sic]" was still used as intended in the film. The cue was split into two separately recorded pieces, with some music in the middle never being recorded. From the first part, there's the quiet, swirly passage just after the laser walls go up; from the second part, there's the percussion for the queen's surrender (although they took out the piccolos) and the music for Anakin's crash.

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I thought The Great Duel part started during that wide shot in the reactors and went all the way until Qui-Gon and Maul are separated. 

 

If I remember correctly, it even still fits there nicely, no?

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10 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

I thought The Great Duel part started during that wide shot in the reactors and went all the way until Qui-Gon and Maul are separated. 

 

If I remember correctly, it even still fits there nicely, no?

Yes, that's (pretty much) what we said....

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3 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Didn't sound like it. I thought you were making the point that it was all chopped up. I was saying it seemed like it fit perfectly as is. 

Because the cue is chopped up, they tracked in the end credits cue

 

 

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