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2021: Most wanted Deluxe Edition treatment for a Jerry Goldsmith score by Varese Sarabande?


Brundlefly
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Most wanted Deluxe Edition treatment for a Jerry Goldsmith score by Varese Sarabande?   

25 members have voted

  1. 1. 1. What Jerry Goldsmith titles owned by Varese Sarabande in perpetuity would you like to see expanded next? You have one choice only!

    • Our Man Flint/In Like Flint (1966/1967) => no CD release yet
      0
    • The Ballad of Cable Hogue (1970) => ???
      0
    • The Mephisto Waltz (1971) => a couple of overlays unreleased
    • The Other (1972) => approx. 25 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Damien: Omen II (1978) => complete, but with huge potential of a sound upgrade
    • The 'Burbs (1989) => a couple of alternates unreleased
    • Mom and Dad Save the World (1991) => approx. 15 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Medicine Man (1992) => approx. 15 minutes unreleased
    • Mr. Baseball (1992) => ???
      0
    • Malice (1993) => approx. 5 minutes unreleased
      0
    • Matinee (1993) => approx. 15 minutes unreleased
    • Rudy (1993) => approx. 20 minutes unreleased
    • Angie (1994) => ???
      0
    • City Hall (1996) => approx. 10 minutes unreleased
      0
    • L.A. Confidential (1997) => approx. 10 minutes unreleased
    • The 13th Warrior (1999) => approx. 20 minutes unreleased
    • Hollow Man (2000) => approx. 25 minutes unreleased
    • Timeline (2003) => approx. 30 minutes unreleased


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Now there's not that much left for Varese, since many titles left the list since 2015 as you can see:

 

  1. "Gremlins 2: The New Batch", "Chain Reaction", "Executive Decision", "The Omen", "The Haunting", "Small Soldiers" and "Raggedy Man" => expanded by VS since 2015
  2. "Air Force One", "U.S. Marshals", "Looney Tunes: Back in Action", "Along Came a Spider", "Lionheart" and "Love Field" => expanded by VS since the 2019 poll
  3. "Leviathan" and "The Final Conflict" => turned out not to be owned by VS in perpetuity
  4. "Criminal Law" and "Fierce Creature" => turned out to be complete already
  5. "Planet of the Apes" and "Escape from the Planet of the Apes" => expanded by another label

 

Right now, there's 18 scores controlled by Varese Sarabande in perpetuity that could potentially be re-released.

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2 hours ago, Brundlefly said:
Now there's not that much left for Varese

 

Not much? It's still too much for me to choose one -even though many of the titles listed aren't a priority for me.

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2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I guess you know that the DVD of the R2 of HOLLOW MAN has an iso score?

 

I rented and skimmed through that years ago, and extracted one single unreleased cue - the sprinkler fight at the end. Pretty much that, and the elevator sequence are enough for me from this score.

 

Interesting tidbit: right at the end of his commentary, he says "I don't think there will be a sequel, but if there is, I hope I do it". Clearly he had a good experience doing that score.

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1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

Robert Townson and his label.

 

That's actually not clear now. Back in my 2019 Goldsmith Odyssey interview with him Robert claimed that Masters Film Music still controlled Lionheart, The Final Conflict, and a few other titles... but then Varese put out Lionheart: The Deluxe Edition (though they later had to add his name and the Masters Film Music logo to the packaging). I think it's possible Townson doesn't control The Final Conflict after all... but bizarrely he *does* (confirmed by Varese) control The 'Burbs! Varese can't do a new edition of that one.

 

5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:
  1.  "Raggedy Man" => expanded by VS since 2015

 

Raggedy Man was a straight reissue (some say remastered for the worse), not an expansion.

 

5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:
 

"Criminal Law" and "Fierce Creature" => turned out to be complete already

 

While I think Criminal Law is complete (or very close to it) on the original album, I actually learned this past year that Fierce Creatures is not! We have long heard that the album has multiple cues Goldsmith wrote specifically for the album, right? Well, what hasn't been widely known is that many of them were extended album versions of cues in the film -- of which there are several where the film versions (often noticeably different) remain unreleased! I haven't figured it all out myself but I think there might be 10 minutes or so of unreleased music which is in the film.

 

Finally, to be more exact about a few of your numbers in the poll:

 

Timeline on Varese is 47.5 minutes. Complete sessions leak is about 26 minutes longer.

 

L.A. Confidential on Varese is under 30 minutes! (If you add Goldsmith's unique 22 second "Badge of Honor" from the song album it goes just over half an hour.) The sessions leak is about 46 minutes longer!

 

For City Hall, in terms of what's in the film but not on album, 11:40 is unreleased (could be more with any alternates or unused cues):

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=110759&forumID=1&archive=0

 

For Malice, it's 7:15 minutes in the film but not on album:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=110814&forumID=1&archive=0

 

For Rudy, there is an isolated score track on a DVD release of the film which only runs 12 minutes longer than the Varese album. (Again, there could be alternates or something, but I'd be surprised if there were 20 minutes unreleased.)

 

The Varese album for Matinee is just shy of 38 minutes. I have a version which is 72 minutes with unused and alternates, so if Varese includes those an expansion would be 34 minutes longer.

 

The Varese for Mom and Dad Save the World is 40 minutes. Terrible sounding sessions boot is 57 minutes -- about 10 cues are missing so most of those are fairly brief:

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=113251&forumID=1&archive=0&pageID=1&r=500#bottom

 

Oh, and Varese released the film recording of both Flint scores on CD in the 90s -- that's why they control them in perpetuity! Over half of each score is unreleased, because just like The Other they got Twilight Time iso score tracks which are significantly longer (but which actually omit some music released by Varese... it's possible each of those scores is approaching 70 minutes in length on its own).

 

As for Angie and Mr. Baseball, we don't know how much is unreleased time-wise, but we do know how many cues are unreleased (and what their names are):

It's 8 or 9 cues missing from Angie:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=110814&forumID=1&archive=0

Only 4 or 5 cues missing from Mr. Baseball:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=138082&forumID=1&archive=0

 

Re: Mephisto Waltz and The Ballad of Cable Hogue -- read this thread. It seems that neither were complete before:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=140019&forumID=1&archive=0

 

From MarkS:

Quote

The Varese "Mephisto Waltz" CD is not complete. There are three cues, totaling just about exactly six minutes missing. They are for the scene where Paula researches Duncan Ely's background at the library, the scene where Paula finds Bill dead on the beach, and the scene where Paula strikes her deal with the devil. All three cues, but especially the last one are really good. The last one is creepy as hell.

 

In addition the mix on album is extremely different from that in the film and I think a restoration of this score would be a revelation.

 

From Steven Lloyd:

Quote

It's delightful to learn that you and Kevin hold THE BALLAD OF CABLE HOGUE in such high regard. I'm the rare hardcore Peckinpah fan who holds this as my personal favorite film (as it remained the director's favorite among his own work). I don't actually expect the label would bother expanding this one, since the original edition languished in the Varese warehouse for nearly four years until the picture was issued in a DVD box set along with three more famous Peckinpah Westerns ... after which the Varese CD sold out within a few months. I don't expect that timing was coincidental. If people will only watch the film, they appreciate it; including Goldsmith's music!

The HOGUE score remains underappreciated because the film is still so little-seen, and the general Goldsmith market likely perceives it as disappointingly short, on top of featuring three songs (two even written by someone else). But as a few of us know, it's definitely peak Goldsmith in both beauty and narrative power. (People don't have to settle for just MY word for this: I was delighted to learn years ago that Joe Dante named it as his own favorite Goldsmith score of all.)

But I'll get to business by confirming that the initial Varese CD was definitely not complete, even though its booklet notes offered no explanation for certain issues.

1) Most important to me, the disc is missing the opening 1:54 from the score's longest cue ("The Guest") -- which happens to contain the single finest instrumental variant of the composer's main theme, covering Hildy's arrival at Cable Springs. Damage to elements? I have no idea, since nothing was mentioned about this.

2) A few minutes of banjo/fiddle/tack piano source music heard from the town saloon are expendable, yet fun in context. But because years ago I had the chance to leaf through a music file on the Warner Bros. lot, I saw that two of those source pieces (possibly the ones I like best) were originals written by Arthur Morton. (There's also yet another Richard Gillis song there, sung briefly onscreen, that has never been missed.)

And 3) the existing CD opens with an alternate take of the film's Main Title song -- at least a different vocal take, in which lyricist Gillis conspicuously chuckles as he sings the word "grinning." (That's so "on the nose" that I've no doubt Goldsmith insisted on more subtlety; but the preferable film take is not what ended up on the Varese release.) EDIT: I forgot to specify the offending "chuckle" as coming only during the final line of the Main Title's vocal track.

By the way, Kevin -- the Jason Robards/Stella Stevens vocal duet of "Butterfly Mornin's" was recorded in mono on the set (which was reported elsewhere, as well as in the CD booklet notes), so it would remain the same even in a remastered edition.

I offer the above for the record. As a devotee I'd love for the gem of CABLE HOGUE to be complete on disc; but my grasp of reality keeps me from believing that Varese would find a revisit worth their investment. I thank those who are left for having issued it the first time, as I had wanted it for more than 30 years!

The existing MEPHISTO WALTZ disc definitely lacks the three cues identified earlier by MarkS. (The original booklet notes do not claim "completeness," to the label's credit). I agree that the final two missing cues are highlights -- especially when a ceremony summons Satan himself, who appears only as a human shadow cast across Jacqueline Bisset as her eyes widen, and the string section's notes rise up to and right past the top of the scale!

 

Hope the extra info is helpful!

 

Yavar

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The thread poll is asking about which existing Jerry scores deserve a new, definitive Deluxe Edition, so the fact that there's an old existing incomplete Burbs expansion already out there doesn't really factor into things

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As I wrote in the older thread: My most wanted now are Medicine Man, The Other, and Mom and Dad Save the World. After that, probably Our Man Flint (I don't care for In Like Flint nearly as much), The Mephisto Waltz, City Hall, and Matinee. That last one's gotta happen sooner or later, being the only Goldsmith/Dante collaboration not expanded yet.


Yavar

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3 minutes ago, May the Force be with You said:

It's not the same thing... I prefer CD

 

So do I, but somehow the iso score tracks for Rudy/Hollow Man/L.A. Confidential, even though lossy, still make them somewhat lower priorities for me personally, in terms of what I want expanded. Same with The 13th Warrior, which doesn't have an iso track but does have a good sounding unofficial release in complete form... but I don't think Varese is really taking that sort of thing into account in terms of what they expand, because they put out Air Force One and Executive Decision.

 

Yavar

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3 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I don't know if it works outside the U.S but it's available on Spotify and for digital purchase on Amazon.

 

 

 

I know, but I would really like to have a physical edition of the score. Even it was just a straight reissue of the previous release

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I almost voted Damien but I don't know if there is a chance of finding better elements for it. If so, that would be my number one. Instead I voted Timeline.

 

I really like Jerry's dark action at the end of his career. I am always singing the praises of Nemesis. I've only recently discovered just how similar the action music for Timeline is so I want more of that. If I can't have The Boy Has to Die in high quality that is.

 

I also didn't vote Medicine Man because even though it is one of my favorite Jerrys, a) I knew others would pick up the slack and b) the album is so memorable to me that I think other scores need an expansion first.

 

It should have already been expanded already anyway and then it wouldn't even be on the list

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2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Same with The 13th Warrior, which doesn't have an iso track but does have a good sounding unofficial release in complete form

 

I've just got the OST, which flows really well. The unreleased music on YT is nice I guess, but I'm not sure it's interesting enough for me to need it on a release.

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29 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I almost voted Damien but I don't know if there is a chance of finding better elements for it. If so, that would be my number one.

 

Better elements? Maybe not. But it's been over two decades since the Deluxe Edition. New technology and new techniques would make the difference -- witness Planet of the Apes on LLL which used the exact same sources as the Varese complete edition from the late 90s, but which sounds SO much better. I'm 100% sure that Mike Mattesino and/or Chris Malone could make the film tracks of Damien: Omen II sound at least somewhat better today.

 

31 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I also didn't vote Medicine Man because even though it is one of my favorite Jerrys, a) I knew others would pick up the slack and b) the album is so memorable to me that I think other scores need an expansion first.

 

It should have already been expanded already anyway and then it wouldn't even be on the list

 

That seems to be weird justification not to vote for something, lol... "it should already exist". ;)

 

3 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

Voted for Timeline. It was his very last score. Even if it’s not his most classic composition. Let’s get all of it if it’s available:)

 

Are you disqualifying Looney Tunes: Back in Action because he was too ill to score the final reel of the film? I consider it his last score because he substantially authored it, even if he didn't finish it. Air Force One, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and Star Trek: First Contact are all his scores and they all had 20+ minutes written by other people due to circumstances... I know we got an expansion of Looney earlier this year so I'm not disputing your vote, just to be clear. :)

 

11 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I've just got the OST, which flows really well. I'd probably buy an expansion for the inevitable quality boost and a bit of extra music, but it's firmly in the 'nice to have' category.

 

Yeah, The 13th Warrior is one of the best Goldsmith OSTs Varese ever produced -- 54+ minutes was an unusually generous running time, so it's far less in need IMO compared to some of their other albums which were 40 minutes or less. Even though all the unreleased music is good too, the existing album doesn't feel like stuff is missing (as Love Field did).

 

Yavar

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I'd never noticed 13th Warrior was 55 mins... I'd put it down as one of their 45 minuters. I thumbed through all of the unreleased cues and found one that was kind of nice (The Search). The rest of it was just really more of what's already on the album. It definitely is a superbly produced album.

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I can say that in complete form The 13th Warrior certainly does not get tiresome or wear out its welcome, but yeah it struck me as "more good stuff" rather than "omigod I can't believe they left off this amazing cue". I'll have to revisit "The Search" based on you singling it out!

 

Yavar

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1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

That seems to be weird justification not to vote for something, lol... "it should already exist". ;)

 

Yavar

 

Yeah that's why it was the postscript reason. I just wonder what an expansion would add to an album I know so well. I can hear what track plays next after the previous track ends even before it begins. So this score exists in a weird place for me. But I know it's beloved and would get other votes.

 

Honestly, you have me hoping for another Damien. If I could re-vote, that would be it. Damien needs attention. Don't forget about Damien.

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14 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 

Yeah that's why it was the postscript reason. I just wonder what an expansion would add to an album I know so well. I can hear what track plays next after the previous track ends even before it begins. So this score exists in a weird place for me. But I know it's beloved and would get other votes.

 

Here's exactly what's missing, in the film:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=109823&forumID=1&archive=0

 

14 minutes ago, blondheim said:

Honestly, you have me hoping for another Damien. If I could re-vote, that would be it. Damien needs attention. Don't forget about Damien.

 

I keep saying Varese should do a complete Omen scores anniversary box set along the lines of LLL's complete Planet of the Apes set, or their own Nightmare on Elm Street franchise box set.

 

They could premiere "The Altar" from the original The Omen, without the crossfade and in proper chronological order. They could have Mike Mattesino or Chris Malone repair the damaged film tracks of Damien: Omen II with modern tech (the previous Deluxe Editions were over two decades ago!) And they could finally expand The Final Conflict to complete form (there are four cues missing on the old Deluxe Edition).

I even would suggest they go beyond the Goldsmith and include the complete recordings of Jonathan Scheffer's Omen IV and Marco Beltrami's The Omen (remake), since I believe they control both of those in perpetuity as well. Maybe neither of those would have Goldsmith-level sales potential on their own, but I do think they'd add a lot of value to (and increase sales of) a definitive complete franchise box set... maybe if not this year, in another few years for the 50th anniversary of the entire franchise?

 

By the way, anyone can change their vote by clicking on "show vote options".

 

Yavar

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I voted for Timeline. As you can tell I am a huge Crichton-related fan, even though the movie was a travesty. But it was around this time I started looking into film music, realizing this was my insane "music of choice" compared to the Top 40 world around us, haha. So it was funny that it was around this time that I got wrapped up into the drama of this score, since I had been following the film's unfortunate production. While I was a fan of Brian Tyler's take on it (and also Bill Brown's for the game adaptation that actually preceded the movie by like a couple years!), I had been so curious to hear the original Goldsmith version! I believe the sessions bootleg actually leaked a while before Varese had their album release, so that was actually how I originally heard it first. While it isn't the greatest score ever made by any stretch, I still think its action finale is such a fun and propulsive listen. I think it is the nostalgia of this score for me personally that wins me over more than anything. I did end up buying Varese's original release, but I found it somehow was damaged a few years back. Now I believe it is pretty hard to get for cheap, so any kind of re-release would be great. To have the rest of the music from the session files would be great though, because there definitely were a few gems that were left off.

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And what about The Final Conflict? Isn't that the only score in the Omen Trilogy that has a lot of unreleased material and thus could use a great expanded edition? Is it because the thread is about Varese, and they can't do TFC?

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4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

And what about The Final Conflict? Isn't that the only score in the Omen Trilogy that has a lot of unreleased material and thus could use a great expanded edition? Is it because the thread is about Varese, and they can't do TFC?

 

6 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I keep saying Varese should do a complete Omen scores anniversary box set along the lines of LLL's complete Planet of the Apes set, or their own Nightmare on Elm Street franchise box set.

 

They could premiere "The Altar" from the original The Omen, without the crossfade and in proper chronological order. They could have Mike Mattesino or Chris Malone repair the damaged film tracks of Damien: Omen II with modern tech (the previous Deluxe Editions were over two decades ago!) And they could finally expand The Final Conflict to complete form (there are four cues missing on the old Deluxe Edition).

 

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7 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Are you disqualifying Looney Tunes: Back in Action because he was too ill to score the final reel of the film? I consider it his last score because he substantially authored it, even if he didn't finish it. Air Force One, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and Star Trek: First Contact are all his scores and they all had 20+ minutes written by other people due to circumstances... I know we got an expansion of Looney earlier this year so I'm not disputing your vote, just to be clear. :)

Oops! I actually just forgot about Looney Toons lol. I think I was considering Timeline as his “Last Score” because it finally got released after he passed. My mistake.

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14 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Raggedy Man was a straight reissue (some say remastered for the worse), not an expansion.

Too dry?

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9 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Too dry?

 

I don't have the original -- or probably a fancy enough sound system (or maybe ears) -- to pick out these differences, but I've heard others say that the remaster was inferior to the original Varese album. I think it may have been "loudness war"-related? I know that one of the mastering engineers Robert Townson liked had an issue with that (I forget who), and that some Club titles during his tenure were affected like Gremlins 2, Peggy Sue Got Married, and I guess maybe this too?

 

Yavar

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@Jay I appreciate you quoting my post like that, but I think @Edmilson was asking why The Final Conflict (which is still incomplete) wasn't included in the thread poll while Damien: Omen II (which was the only original Varese Omen trilogy Deluxe Edition that was complete) was included. To which the answer is:

 

On 9/7/2021 at 3:55 AM, Brundlefly said:
 

"The Final Conflict" => turned out not to be owned by VS in perpetuity

 

And as I later pointed out to Brundlefly (but presumably too late to affect this poll; maybe next time), this assumption may be incorrect:

 

On 9/7/2021 at 9:13 AM, Yavar Moradi said:

That's actually not clear now. Back in my 2019 Goldsmith Odyssey interview with him Robert claimed that Masters Film Music still controlled Lionheart, The Final Conflict, and a few other titles... but then Varese put out Lionheart: The Deluxe Edition (though they later had to add his name and the Masters Film Music logo to the packaging). I think it's possible Townson doesn't control The Final Conflict after all... but bizarrely he *does* (confirmed by Varese) control The 'Burbs! Varese can't do a new edition of that one.

 

Varese has not actually confirmed publicly whether they control The Final Conflict OR the film recording of Damien: Omen II (which they did premiere after all in their Deluxe Edition, even if they would have sublicensed its pairing of the original album recording).

 

Yavar

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2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I know that one of the mastering engineers Robert Townson liked had an issue with that (I forget who), and that some Club titles during his tenure were affected like Gremlins 2, Peggy Sue Got Married, and I guess maybe this too?

 

Erick Labson

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The Goldsmith titles were fine, it was horrid on Peggy Sue, and to a lesser degree on Starship Troopers and Predator 2 (two loud and brutal scores, so at least it's kind of fitting).

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18 minutes ago, publicist said:

The Goldsmith titles were fine, it was horrid on Peggy Sue, and to a lesser degree on Starship Troopers and Predator 2 (two loud and brutal scores, so at least it's kind of fitting).

 

I thought Starship Troopers was Patricia Sullivan and I heard very few complaints about it at the time. Predator 2, Gremlins 2, and Peggy Sue I heard a lot of complaints about. Raggedy Man I didn't hear much about at the time but later on people commented to me about the original version sounding better.

 

I know you're so-so on a lot of 90s Goldsmith publicist, but I'd be very curious what you think of the 55 minute Goldsmith Love Field program, if you happen to pick it up.

 

Yavar

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1 hour ago, publicist said:

The Goldsmith titles were fine, it was horrid on Peggy Sue, and to a lesser degree on Starship Troopers and Predator 2 (two loud and brutal scores, so at least it's kind of fitting).

 

Troopers was Pat Sullivan I believe, not Labson. I forget who mastered Predator 2. I think Labson also did Executive Decision which by all accounts is brickwalled to death. Ghostbusters is another casualty (the V/S Club release).

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55 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

I know you're so-so on a lot of 90s Goldsmith publicist, but I'd be very curious what you think of the 55 minute Goldsmith Love Field program, if you happen to pick it up.

 

Yavar

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19349-what-is-the-last-score-you-listened-to-older-scores/&do=findComment&comment=1832296

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I’ll select The Other. 
 

Angie, Malice and Fierce Creatures are 3 Goldsmith titles I don’t have any versions of. 

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I believe Fierce Creatures contains the complete score, plus extra music specifically composed for the album. Quite possibly the only Varese 30-minuter that can't be expanded.

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14 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I believe Fierce Creatures contains the complete score, plus extra music specifically composed for the album. Quite possibly the only Varese 30-minuter that can't be expanded.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 5:13 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

I actually learned this past year that Fierce Creatures is not! We have long heard that the album has multiple cues Goldsmith wrote specifically for the album, right? Well, what hasn't been widely known is that many of them were extended album versions of cues in the film -- of which there are several where the film versions (often noticeably different) remain unreleased! I haven't figured it all out myself but I think there might be 10 minutes or so of unreleased music which is in the film.

 

Call me Jay.

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