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SPOILER TALK: DUNE (2021, Denis Villeneuve)


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7 hours ago, Romão said:

Weirding modules and Harkonnen heart plugs aside, Lynch did a very good job in adaptating first third of the book

That's right, the beginning of the movie is promising and then it is a gradual journey downhill. Each minute becomes less understandable and less joyful as an experience than the previous, until the end which is just...

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8 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

It prolongs the inevitable. They are going to end up with the fremen. We know that. What’s the point of spending an hour to get there?

 

We know that Lawrence is going to crash his motorcycle. We have a pretty good idea that Luke is going to rescue the Princess and get the plans to the Rebels. Ryan will be saved.

 

It's an interesting hour.

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34 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

We know that Lawrence is going to crash his motorcycle. We have a pretty good idea that Luke is going to rescue the Princess and get the plans to the Rebels. Ryan will be saved.

 

It's an interesting hour.

 

I wouldn't want Arrakis to feel small and less dangerous than it could be.

15 hours ago, Romão said:

Weirding modules and Harkonnen heart plugs aside, Lynch did a very good job in adaptating first third of the book

My favourite scene of his is the sandworm riding scene.

On 24/10/2021 at 4:39 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

i think This is what a lot of us are saying. While there is a lot of world building going on here. There is not a lot of story.

 

so, Dune?

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9 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I frankly would have cut the Duncan and liet parts post escape. What does it add to the story? Nothing. It prolongs the inevitable. They are going to end up with the fremen. We know that. What’s the point of spending an hour to get there?

You're acting like a movie is all information and no experience. You do have sex, although you know that you're gonna cum at the end, don't you? There is your answer. There is a lot more on the way to uncover (especially in a Villeneuve flick) than the simple resolution at the end.

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All the extra Duncan scenes will pay off in the long run if they turn additional novels into movies. We're getting attached to him now. 

 

This is the spoiler thread. Duncan Idaho is dead. 

 

But death in the Duniverse is not forever. There are ways to return, and these form the chains between all the other books. 

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5 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

We know that Lawrence is going to crash his motorcycle. We have a pretty good idea that Luke is going to rescue the Princess and get the plans to the Rebels. Ryan will be saved.

 

It's an interesting hour.

 

To be it isn't. It was more of the same. More visions. Similar desert shots. No new concepts or insight revealed.

 

It did not feel like the good use of an hour narrative-time wise. 

 

4 hours ago, Brónach said:

so, Dune?

 

I guess so but you can't be so slavish as to even translate the flaws of your source in adaptation. Surely the goal is to suit it to strength of the new medium.

 

4 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

You're acting like a movie is all information and no experience. You do have sex, although you know that you're gonna cum at the end, don't you? There is your answer. There is a lot more on the way to uncover (especially in a Villeneuve flick) than the simple resolution at the end.

 

I find Denis to be a totally unimaginative director so for me unfortunately there wasn't more to experience in that barren hour. It was totally repetitive to me and I feel more story could have been told in that section rather than having them heaving sitting in a tent for 30 minutes - or however long that was.

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I don't know much about the books. But it strikes me that if Villeneuve was entitled to draw from multiple books in the series, that he could have actually fashioned a meaty trilogy out of this. And that might have actually provided a stronger narrative arc for this first film.

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8 minutes ago, KK said:

I don't know much about the books. But it strikes me that if Villeneuve was entitled to draw from multiple books in the series, that he could have actually fashioned a meaty trilogy out of this. And that might have actually provided a stronger narrative arc for this first film.

 

I've read the first book about four times, and Frank's sequels once each.

 

The plot devices and characters introduced in Dune Messiah do not have a place in a movie of the first half of the first book. They would only complicate things. 

 

Heck, DV excised major Part 2 characters like Fenring, Irulan, her father, and Feyd. 

 

For whatever reason, DV saw fit to remove the banquet scene that happens before the big attack. At best, he could have mentioned the Spacing Guild in more detail, like in the SyFy series, but what's the point? They were only useful to bring Paul and family to Arrakis. They won't matter again until the jihad puts the hurt to planetary spice production. 

 

There's a lot of weird shit that starts to figure in Dune Messiah. Face Dancers, gholas, stone burners, and axolotl tanks are not important yet. They become important once Paul becomes important to the universe. 

 

But right now in our story, Paul is a nobody that everyone offworld and onworld (ie any Atreides agent who lived) thinks is dead. 

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Denis is rigorous streamlining means he’s left with a really diffuse 2.5 hour movie.

 

As I said, the movie currently is just Atredies coming to Arrakis, assassination attempt on Paul, attack by the Hs and Jessica and Paul escaping to join the Fremen.

 

 To me it’s just not 2.5 hrs of story. This isn’t TV.

 

 If there’s more stuff in the books, why not put it in the movie.

 

I see absolutely no reason why the movie’s meager content level couldn’t have been comfortably fit in 2 hrs.

 

does every fucking movie have to be 2.5 hrs these days?

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I'm hoping that Part 2 features some "meanwhile" moments. 

 

As was mentioned earlier, one of the major Atreides personnel survives the attack and wants revenge. The catalyst for that revenge is the thought that Jessica betrayed Leto instead of Yueh. There was no mention about what a Suk doctor is, let alone they have perfect loyalty and cannot be bought. Lol. 

 

Can we see a "meanwhile" scene that shows the surviving character's POV and why they would suspect her? That character will trigger Paul's motivation for Act 3 of the first book. 

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1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Denis is rigorous streamlining means he’s left with a really diffuse 2.5 hour movie.

 

As I said, the movie currently is just Atredies coming to Arrakis, assassination attempt on Paul, attack by the Hs and Jessica and Paul escaping to join the Fremen.

 

 To me it’s just not 2.5 hrs of story. This isn’t TV.

 

 If there’s more stuff in the books, why not put it in the movie.

 

I see absolutely no reason why the movie’s meager content level couldn’t have been comfortably fit in 2 hrs.

 

does every fucking movie have to be 2.5 hrs these days?

Calm down, it’s just a movie. And yes, most blockbusters these days are 2.5 to 3 hours long. Been happening almost regularly since Titanic and LOTR. 

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2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Oh, wow. All this Dune-bashing is beginning to make Lynch's version look like THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS :lol:

 

I just watched it. It isn't. DV's version comes off as a masterpiece.

 

2 hours ago, Positivatee said:

For whatever reason, DV saw fit to remove the banquet scene that happens before the big attack. At best, he could have mentioned the Spacing Guild in more detail, like in the SyFy series, but what's the point? They were only useful to bring Paul and family to Arrakis. They won't matter again until the jihad puts the hurt to planetary spice production.

 

I missed the banquet badly for lots of reasons, but it has no place in this film. I could have done with hearing less about the Guild. I honestly think that this is either bleed over from Lynch or DV being too familiar with the books. The true connection of the guild with Arrakis is a surprise to everyone but the Guild and Paul at the end of the book.

 

The one thing that isn't in the movie that (I think) needed more weight was that the Atreides knew there was a traitor and why it was "impossible" for it to be Yueh. Even if the audience isn't told up front that it is Yueh (in the book we are told from almost the start) the fact that it is known that there is a traitor motivates a lot of the characters actions. They know they are on thin ice.

 

I got the impression that DV took out all of the overt Harkonnen action against the Atreides before the actual full scale attack (leaving behind booby traps, sabotage, stealing the caryall rather than it simply failing due to age) so that the Duke would not have direct evidence to show Kynes. In the book this didn't matter. But if I didn't have the book as reference, would I care?

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10 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

does every fucking movie have to be 2.5 hrs these days?

 

Certainly not and, in fact, only a small proportion of them are. Of 55 films released this year that I've seen, only two reach that duration, and only eight others pass the two hour mark. I don't think that's a wildly unrepresentative sample. I'd like to see more films aiming for four hours and above, but my personal preferences aren't to be confused with artistic imperatives.

 

The key points of this film's plot could certainly be conveyed within two hours; indeed, they could be conveyed within fifteen minutes. But simply relating a string of events isn't what films are generally made for. There's no canonical rate at which events have to happen in a film in order for it to be acceptable, and deviation from the average (in either direction) is not inherently a flaw.

 

The fact (or, at least, the opinion) that Dune: Part One isn't aesthetically or intellectually mind-blowing doesn't mean that its stately pace is a presumptuous imposition on our precious time...

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This movie is very smart in the way it handles it's worldbuilding. This whole movie is a lot of exposition and it does is extremely well.

If Part One wouldn't have been made the way it has, Part Two would autimatically be different and less understandable.

Part One explains a lot about this universe and everything that belongs with it. It does this, so that in Part 2 the story can move forward quicker (because it doesn't have to explain a lot again) and it will make a lot more sense.

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For those who have seen DUNE, a quick question:

What is the message of the film? What is it trying to say?

The term "jihad" has been replaced with "crusade". Does that affect the film? For those who have read the book, and/or seen Lynch's version, does that change the thrust of the film? How does Vilneuve's version differ from Lynch's version?

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46 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

The term "jihad" has been replaced with "crusade".

 

Neither term appears in the film. It's alluded to, briefly. But only in passing. Given the backlash that I have seen from Arab readers about the word jihad being removed I wonder how this will affect part II. (I wonder if anyone cares?)

 

I'm not sure there is as much of a "message" in this film. I also don't think the book had as much of a single "message" as a lot of people do. It had a lot of ideas. And like Tolkien wanted a history for his fictional languages Herbert wanted to see what would happen if ecologists ran a planet.

 

To me the biggest conceptual changes are that it is front loaded that everyone knows the value of the spice (making it easier to make the spice into "oil") and the Fremen are now treated as "natives" and everyone else as "colonials". How much this changes the film is up to the viewer. It's probably less of a big deal than I think it is.

 

If I start saying the same thing over and over again please let me know.

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46 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

To me the biggest conceptual changes are that it is front loaded that everyone knows the value of the spice (making it easier to make the spice into "oil")

 

Enlighten me, because I first became (vaguely) familiar with Dune through the C&C precursor video game in the 90s and then the Lynch film, which seem to handle it in the same way. I recently read the book for the second time, but starting it with the assumption that the spice and its properties are common knowledge, I never picked up on it apparently being handled differently in the book?

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The spice is important and valuable (and addictive) for various reasons and these are known. But the fact that is it used by and vital to the spacing guild isn't revealed until the end of the book. It's why the Fremen have been able to make deals with the guild and why there are no satellites over Arrakis.

 

Both movies make this all common knowledge and front loaded in the plot. But it's Paul's winning card at the end of the book.

 

The other mystery (that isn't really touched on in the film) is who Kynes is and what her significance is. It turns out that while she is Imperial she is also essentially the leader of the Fremen and would be the key to the Atreides survival even before the invasion. Something that is missed from the banquet scene is how afraid all of the other power brokers on Arrakis are of her. She also has her own aims (the terraforming of Arrakis) and starts to fall in with the Atreides when she discovers they aren't just on Arrakis for the spice.

 

The structure of the book is interesting in that it tells you very early on that the Duke is doomed and the Atreides will fail. And then it gives the reader hope over and over and over again that the "good guys" will win the day. I didn't get that impression from the film but maybe I didn't have the unspoiled eyes to see it.

 

It was pointed out to me that even when the Harkonnens were making money fat hand over fat fist off of Arrakis that they would still be paying taxes and fees to the Emperor. That's why he's the Emperor. And as the whole plot of Dune shows he is very jealous of his power. So the notion that the Baron has more wealth than Shadam is silly. (In the book Shadam rubs the Baron's face in the fact by making the Baron pay for the invasion.)

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12 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Calm down, it’s just a movie. And yes, most blockbusters these days are 2.5 to 3 hours long. Been happening almost regularly since Titanic and LOTR. 

Most?

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13 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Calm down, it’s just a movie. And yes, most blockbusters these days are 2.5 to 3 hours long. Been happening almost regularly since Titanic and LOTR. 

 

which - for these kinds of movies - I love.

 

I love the idea of a movie as an ordeal.

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I don't remember which clan had more wealth, whether it was the Harkonnen or Corrino. The Baron did make a comment to Rabban to start selling their surplus melange and keep the price high. It does not matter if the Baron is outwardly more wealthy than the Emperor. He has planned for future shortages and can control the market in the short term (at least until Muad'Dib starts wreaking havoc). 

 

I did like the movie plot element of having the Emperor's Sardukar operate in the open on Arrakis. In the miniseries (and I presume in book), they wore Harkonnen uniforms to hide the Emperor's involvement. 

 

In the long run, however, this is irrelevant. The Atreides discover the deception and the book makes it known. By the end of the book, it does not matter. So DV deconstructs that ruse and allows the Atreides and audience to know the Emperor is open about it. This makes Shaddam IV more terrifying and evil. 

 

The Baron calls the Duke "cousin." If they're really related, that makes Paul and his unborn sister all kinds of fucked up. 

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43 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

It's longer than Dune!

 

And it's unfilmable! :D

 

2 hours ago, Positivatee said:

The Baron calls the Duke "cousin." If they're really related, that makes Paul and his unborn sister all kinds of fucked up.

 

1) They're royalty. But 2) it's an honorific. I forget the details but Leto actually has a bloodline in common with Shadam and Vladimir does not. Leto is supposed to call Vladimir "cousin" but he refuses and Vladimir is terribly insulted by it.

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8 hours ago, Tallguy said:

1) They're royalty. But 2) it's an honorific. I forget the details but Leto actually has a bloodline in common with Shadam and Vladimir does not. Leto is supposed to call Vladimir "cousin" but he refuses and Vladimir is terribly insulted by it.

 

He made his peace gesture. The forms of Kanly had been obeyed!

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