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My Star Wars soundtrack tracklists (OT)


Tallguy
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(I don't know if this is worth it's own thread and I will certainly move it to an appropriate one if asked.)

 

Since Disney doesn't seem to be moving on this I will boldly go where I'm sure lots of people have gone before: Making MY Star Wars albums. (I'll be sticking to the OT.)

 

I had a few guidelines for myself: I'm using the original cue names to the best of my knowledge. Which is a big part of why I'm bothering to post it here for a set of more knowledgeable eyes. I have a lot of questions.

 

I'm really trying to codify when I feel like a track should be separate or combined. (This is a way more relevant to Empire and Jedi.) If the last note of one track leads directly into the first note of the next (e.g. The Mouse Robot to More Rescue or Stand By to Approaching the Target) AND the focus of the scene doesn't change then I combine them / keep them combined. I'll do the same for Losing a Hand to Hyperspace on Empire. But the Battle of Hoth will be broken the heck up, ditto Endor. Different cues, different characters, different scenes.

 

OK, here is Star Wars. I'm realizing that I really know Star Wars but I don't know Empire as well as I think. Jedi might be a bit of a trial for me.

 

Film

01. Twentieth Century Fox Fanfare with CinemaScope Extension
02. Main Title, The War, The Escape Hatch (1M2,1M3, 1M4-2M1)

I can't imagine any "real" edition of this score would be presented this way with the main title and the Imperial Attack cues combined. But after making an isolated score of Star Wars and realizing that last note of Main Title leads right into The War I can't hear it any other way. Maybe when the Super Set comes out I'll be surprised.

 

OTOH sure, it's nice to just listen to The War / The Escape Hatch by itself. (Like we have been doing for 44 years.) That's what the bonus section is for. (Again, can't see this being this way on a real release.)

 

03. Desert Song (1M5/2M1)
04. The Little People (2M3)
05. More Little People (2M3 Rev.)
06. R-2 (2M4)
07. The Princess Appears  (3M1 Rev.)
08. Lost R-2 (3M2 New)
09. The Sand Speeder (3M3 Rev.)
10. The Sandman Attacks (3M4/4M1 Rev.)
11. Obi-Wan Kenobi (4M2)
12. The Force (4M2A)
13. The Princess Reappears (4M3)
14. Learn About the Force (A Home Destroyed b1-14B) (4M4 Rev)
    
Is this really also called A Home Destroyed? I just couldn't name it that.

 

15. A Home Destroyed b31-72,15-30 1 (4M4 Rev. [4M4A])
16. A Hive of Villainy (5M1)
17. The Inner City (5M6 Rev)
18. Blasting Away (6M1)
19. The Destruction of Alderaan (6M5 New)
20. Is It a Bird? (7M1 New old 6M3)
21. The Hatch Opens (7M1/7M2 New)
22. The Mouse Robot, More Rescue (7M2, 8M2 New)

 

Are these titles right? Does "More Rescue" come before "The Rescue"?

 

23. The Rescue (8M2 Rev.)
24. The Water Snake (8M3 Rev.)
25. The Walls Converge (8M4)
26. Ben Creeps Around (9M1)
27. The Swashbucklers (9M2)

 

I went back and forth on if I should separate these two cues. It's one of those instances where they are clearly separate ideas but there is the tiniest connective tissue. Plus you can hear the end of Ben Creeps Around at the start of The Swashbuckler. I'd be very curious to hear these two actually separate as they were recorded.

 

My edit isn't perfect, but it works. (I'm open to improving.)
    
28. Ben's Death, Here They Come (9M3/10M1, 10M2)
29. Stand By, Approaching the Target (10M3/11M1, 11M2 Rev)
30. The Last Battle (12M1)
31. End Titles (12M2, 12M2)

 

Source cues and suite
32. Cantina Band
33. Cantina Band #2

 

I went back and forth on keeping the Cantina source in the main program or no. I finally decided that there is a better than even chance that I skip these when I listen so I moved them.

 

34. The Princess Theme (27A)

 

Alternates and Discrete Cues
35. Lost R2 (Alternate) (3M2 New)
36. The War (1M3)
37. The Escape Hatch (1M4-2M1)

 

Does anyone have a good way to make the break between The War and The Escape Hatch "clean"? I saw some discussion about these being separate in the Radio Play but covered with dialog. I'm not the musical engineer in my family (and the one who is is too expensive.)

 

38. The Mouse Robot (7M2)
39. More Rescue (8M2 New)
40. Ben's Death (9M3/10M1)
41. Here They Come (10M2)

 

Just realized I broke this in totally the wrong place! I broke it at "We're not out of this yet" rather than, well, "Here they come!"


42. Stand By (10M3)
43. Approaching the Target (11M1)
44. Main Title Take 16
45. Main Title Take 17
46. Main Title Take 18
47. Main Title Take 19
48. Main Title Take 20

 

Next up: Empire!

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On 29/09/2021 at 4:35 PM, Tallguy said:

Are these titles right? Does "More Rescue" come before "The Rescue"?


Nah, “The Rescue” definitely goes before “More Rescue”. Presumably “The Rescue” would really be 8M1 in the new numbering. Oops, had that wrong!

 

On 29/09/2021 at 4:35 PM, Tallguy said:

Alternates and Discrete Cues
35. Lost R2 (Alternate) (3M2 New)


The alternate “Lost R2” is 3M2R.

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10 hours ago, BrotherSound said:


Nah, “The Rescue” definitely goes before “More Rescue”. Presumably “The Rescue” would really be 8M1 in the new numbering.

 


The alternate “Lost R2” is 3M2R.

 

I'll fix that, thanks!

 

@BrotherSound What about "A Home Destroyed" at the end of the scene in Ben's hut? Is that title correct?

 

Has anyone else done anything like this? Or does everyone just play the CDs like normal people?

 

I started on Empire last night. I will definitely have questions.

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A Home Destroyed was written to a different cut of the film.  In between when he wrote it, and when they were at the recording stage, George had re-edited the film a bit.  So, they recorded the first 14 bars as one discrete cue, then recorded bars 31-72 / 15-30 as another discrete cue.  If they decided on new names for each piece of that original cue at that recording stage, we have no idea what name that could be.  The recording log information in the booklet of the 1997 expansion replaces whatever original names were on those logs with the new names they invented for that 1997 release.  So for your personal edit, you can title things however you want!

 

They very likely might have just called them "A Home Destroyed Part 1" and "A Home Destroyed Part 2" or something.  We just don't know.

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40 minutes ago, Jay said:

A Home Destroyed was written to a different cut of the film.  In between when he wrote it, and when they were at the recording stage, George had re-edited the film a bit.  So, they recorded the first 14 bars as one discrete cue, then recorded bars 31-72 / 15-30 as another discrete cue.  If they decided on new names for each piece of that original cue at that recording stage, we have no idea what name that could be.  The recording log information in the booklet of the 1997 expansion replaces whatever original names were on those logs with the new names they invented for that 1997 release.  So for your personal edit, you can title things however you want!

 

They very likely might have just called them "A Home Destroyed Part 1" and "A Home Destroyed Part 2" or something.  We just don't know.

 

That's a good idea on the titling. Thanks.

 

So if I'm following this right going by the bar numbers and the original edit (and the order in the novel) then A Home Destroyed is: The end of the scene at Ben's House, Vader interrogating Leia, finding the dead jawas and Luke running home. Wow! When you think of the cues that got chopped up into multiple cues (Imperial Attack) but this one he wrote all as one piece? Also, that's a crazy collection of scenes to decide to score wall to wall!

 

So Part 1 and Part 2 it is then.

 

See? Education!

 

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I actually just remembered that we do know the official name for the recording of the first 14 bars of "A Home Destroyed"! 

 

It's "Ben and Luke"


The source is Lukas Kendall's old FSM article about the unreleased "5th disc" of the 1993 Anthology set.

 

Here

Spoiler

From: Mercerton on America Online
===================================
Lukas Kendall wrote in the Jan/Feb/Mar issue of Film Score Monthly
(among a wealth of other SW music background):
"And finally, the 'fifth disc,' an object I made the mistake of
mentioning a few months ago. At this point, while a sequencing for
a fifth disc was made (featuring another 70 minutes of music), there
are no immediate plans to release it. It's not dead, just kind of
in limbo. Because I wasn't supposed to announce it, it would not
be a good idea to write Fox demanding the "fifth disc." To them
nobody knows about it, and therefore nobody would care if they ever
did it. Rather, write that you would be interested in 'any
additional Star Wars outtakes and unreleased music' like the fourth
disc in the set. Address is: Fox Records, c/o Fox Music Group, PO
Box 900, Beverly Hills, CA 90213. Be nice, be brief and try not to
sound like you're crazy; perhaps disc five may yet happen."
So there you have it. If you're interested, here's the missing
music that could be on a fifth disc according to Film Score Monthly:
From Star Wars:
- Main Title (first recorded take) 2:16
- More Little People (after droids purchased) :22
- The Force/The Princess Reappears/Ben and Luke 2:00
- Out of the Floor (group infiltrates Death Star) 1:45
From The Empire Strikes Back:
- The Imperial Probe (film version pt. 1) 1:00
- Ben's Instruction (complete) 3:30
- The Probe Scanner 3:00
- Yoda Appears ("You feel like what?") 1:15
- Vader's Command (Imperial Fleet breaks up) 1:10
- Luke to the Rescue (taking off from Dagobah) :55
- Vader Shows Up (group meets Vader at dinner) 1:30
- Putting Threepio Together 1:00
- Trouble in Prison (Lando visits prison cell) 2:20
- Carbon Freeze (alternate) :40
- Finale (alternate) 2:00
From Return of the Jedi:
- Vader Contacts Luke (not in film)/The Iron Door 2:20
- Jabba Harp Source 3:00
- Unused Source Music (not in film) 1:30
- My Favorite Decoration 1:00
- Lapti Nek (film version)
- Fancy Man (Lapti Nek English Version)
- Jabba's Prisoners (Boushh barters over Chewie) 2:20
- Jabba's Sail Barge Source
- Han Solo Returns (film version) 4:00
- A Strange Visitor (Luke arrives) 2:30
- The Sentence (Jabba says: Die by Sarlaac) 2:00
- The Sarlaac Pit :45
- Ben and Luke on a Log/The Rebel Fleet 2:50
- Battle Plans (the real "Rebel Briefing) 2:00
- Jungle Encounter (before Speeder Bikes) 1:20
- After the Bike Chase :50
- Enter the Ewok (Leia meets Wickett) 2:00
- More Trouble/More Ewoks Emerge 4:30
- Ewok Drums (group carried to Ewok Village) 2:25
- Using the Force (Luke levitates Threepio) 1:15
- Bedtime Stories (Threepio tells saga to Ewoks) 1:10
- Ewok Drums 2 (group joins tribe) 2:05
- Father Meets Son (Endor landing platform) 3:30
- Finding an Entrance (group at bunker) :50
- Rebel Forces Captured 2:00
- The Emperor Provokes Luke 1:00
- The Battle Rages (space/bunker fight) 1:00
- Space Battle (Rebels enter Death Star, etc.) 2:00
So, as you can see, most of the fifth disc would contain unused
music from "Jedi." The full article in FSM contains everything
you could ever want to know about Star Wars music. If you really
love film scores, FSM is the mag for you (I don't work for them,
honest! Unfortunately, I haven't even had the time to subscribe)
For Film Score Monthly info, contact:
Film Score Monthly
Box 1554
Amherst College
Amherst, MA 01002-5000
Phone/Fax: (413)542-3353

 

You can see more information on my google doc, here:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NTJGw3zWk6qamNFBPNCfrQiMefuO2BQCDlovHwi6ud4/

 

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Nah, “The Rescue” definitely goes before “More Rescue”. Presumably “The Rescue” would really be 8M1 in the new numbering.

 

That isn't correct.

 

More Rescue is the scene where Luke, Han, and Chewie shoot up the prison cells control room area and take over.  It was part of "The Last Battle" on the OST and 1993 Anthology, and titled "Detention Block Ambush" on the 1997 set.

 

The Rescue is the scene where stormtroopers then show up and they have to fend them off before jumping into the garbage chute.  It was part of "Rescue of the Princess" on the OST and 1993 Anthology, and titled "Shootout In The Cell Bay" on the 1997 set.

 

So it's correct that More Rescue goes before The Rescue.

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Can I just ask what a "Discrete Cue" is? Also there is a fantastic edit of the 1977 Score on YouTube by "Film Score Media" who may actually contribute to this forum. How on earth he separates "Imperial Attack" into two cues is beyond me but it works beautifully. I know its unlikely but a future release of the OT scores with each and every cue separated no matter how short would be dream come true. 

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2 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

Can I just ask what a "Discrete Cue" is?

 

I just meant they recorded the first 14 bars as its own cue.  They recorded what the sheet music had written down for the first 14 bars, but didn't play any of bar 15 at all. Instead we get a "clean ending" of bar 14 ringing out and finishing up without anything written in bar 15 playing on top of it.  I hope that makes sense.

 

2 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

Also there is a fantastic edit of the 1977 Score on YouTube by "Film Score Media" who may actually contribute to this forum.

 

That's @Manakin Skywalker

 

2 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

How on earth he separates "Imperial Attack" into two cues is beyond me but it works beautifully.

 

I haven't listened to his edit but it can be easier to separate film music tracks at certain points than you think.  It just takes experience and practice and sometimes brief mockups.

 

2 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

I know its unlikely but a future release of the OT scores with each and every cue separated no matter how short would be dream come true. 

 

I'd enjoy that as well.

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A mine of information as ever. Thankyou 

Just listening to the opening of "The Sandman Attacks" again. Fantastic turbulent/threatening music with that strange little Piccolo moment. Would also love to hear this cue separated. 

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b1 - 14B A Home Destroyed. Is the opening on Violas related to any of the major themes? Often Williams has caught me out with musuc I've been listening to for decades before realising this or that snippet from whichever score is actually leitmotivic. This is testament to his unassuming genius. 

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This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Thank you so much!

 

20 hours ago, stravinsky said:

b1 - 14B A Home Destroyed. Is the opening on Violas related to any of the major themes? Often Williams has caught me out with musuc I've been listening to for decades before realising this or that snippet from whichever score is actually leitmotivic. This is testament to his unassuming genius. 

 

It's kinda the theme to Rogue One. :)

 

20 hours ago, Jay said:

I just found an old post I made explaining A Home Destroyed better.  I forgot that the sheets show they actually added bars 14A and 14B to to end Ben and Luke with the Imperial theme to transition to the fleet, and that bar 72 was revised to segue from there into bar 15!

 

Wow! I'm so glad I don't have to edit all of that together! But I will be calling the track Ben and Luke. Historically speaking that's amazing. It makes you want to take a time machine and tell Maestro W. "Hey, let me tell you about 1999..."

 

21 hours ago, stravinsky said:

How on earth he separates "Imperial Attack" into two cues is beyond me but it works beautifully.

 

He doesn't break the cue on the same place. He breaks it right when Threepio gets into to pod. (Which is an aesthetically pleasing place to break the cue to be sure.)

 

 

He does a very nice job on Stand By / Approaching the Target.

 

I'm sure someone with much better Audacity skills than I would be able to make the break at the actual cue and make it sound natural. (It's right after the big crash when Vader breaks the rebels neck: "I want them alive!") But if I had those skills I would probably be using Pro Tools.

 

If I hadn't heard where the real break is on the Radio Play I probably would have taken my best guess and made the break in a more convenient place. But it's also not the way I plan to listen to this piece so it's more of a curiosity. (It's an interesting curiosity.)

 

I'm moving on to Empire. Yes, this whole thread is a convoluted way to ask @Jay "Why haven't you done a spreadsheet for Empire like you did for Star Wars and Jedi?" ;) But I'm using this: https://www.jwfan.com/?p=4092

 

I'm going around on sources. I was going to use The Imperial Edition for as much as I can. Still might. Or I might just use the RCA to keep everything the same. I've never had the issues with the RCA disk's quality that many here and elsewhere have had.

 

My big problem with listening to Empire is that the start of the CD is not the movie. But it's beautiful and majestic and exciting! So i have to keep that somewhere. And then it moves into a whole section of wonderful music that is mostly dialed out in the film but interspersed with bits that aren't dialed out. Thankfully the dialed out bits still line up with the movie so I don't have to figure out how to program a whole bunch of alternates.

 

So my plan is to take the film version of the opening (track 4 on the RCA) and mix it with the rest of RCA Track 1. I'm not sure what to do with the little sting when Han rides into the base (RCA T4 0:54). I'll probably take the album edition of the Imperial Probe and add it to that. Kind of like the RCA only backwards.

 

There's a lot of micro-edit shenanigans in the film when the probe and Luke are introduced, aren't there?

 

I think after that it gets pretty easy, right?

 

The next big change I'm going to make is swap out The Imperial March for the original intro to Vader's fleet. I'm treating this as a special case because it's not tracked from another part of the film. Yes, we know where it comes from but within the film it is original music. So it isn't the same case as (for example) Hyperspace replacing Luke's Rescue. And (and here is the important part) I have always loved the way it sounds.

 

Where this is going to get hard is all the Yoda stuff. A lot of it isn't in the film and it's hard for me to keep track of.

 

This will be a walk in the park compared to Jedi.

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3 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

I'm moving on to Empire. Yes, this whole thread is a convoluted way to ask @Jay "Why haven't you done a spreadsheet for Empire like you did for Star Wars and Jedi?" ;) But I'm using this: https://www.jwfan.com/?p=4092

 

I dunno!  I guess I just never got around to it.

 

3 hours ago, Tallguy said:

My big problem with listening to Empire is that the start of the CD is not the movie. But it's beautiful and majestic and exciting! So i have to keep that somewhere. And then it moves into a whole section of wonderful music that is mostly dialed out in the film but interspersed with bits that aren't dialed out. Thankfully the dialed out bits still line up with the movie so I don't have to figure out how to program a whole bunch of alternates.

 

So my plan is to take the film version of the opening (track 4 on the RCA) and mix it with the rest of RCA Track 1. I'm not sure what to do with the little sting when Han rides into the base (RCA T4 0:54). I'll probably take the album edition of the Imperial Probe and add it to that. Kind of like the RCA only backwards.

 

There's a lot of micro-edit shenanigans in the film when the probe and Luke are introduced, aren't there?

 

I think after that it gets pretty easy, right?

 

So the 1997 track titled "Main Title/The Ice Planet Hoth" contains everything JW originally recorded for the start of the film; It's just 1M1 Main Title followed by 1M2 The Imperial Probe and that's it.  Easy peasy!

 

 

He later wrote 3 different revisions (a new opening and two inserts) for 1M2 The Imperial Probe, though we have no evidence that one of them was recorded

  • 1M2 New Start = was recorded, was used in film, included in the 1997 set

  • 1M2 Insert Bar 80 = was recorded, but was not used in the film, included in the 1997 set
  • 1M2 Insert Bar 109 = unknown if recorded or not, was not used in the film and a recording has never turned up

 

When assembling the 1997 2CD set, Mike chose to debut 1M2 New Start and 1M2 Insert Bar 80 in track 4; That track breaks down like this:

 

1-04 The Imperial Probe / Aboard The Executor (4:24)

  • 0:00-0:54 = 1M2 New Start
  • 0:54-1:14 = 1M2 Insert Bar 80
  • 1:14-end = 2M4 The Probe Scanner

The correct way to edit 1M2 New Start and 1M2 Insert Bar 80 into the original 1M1 and 1M2 is:

  1. 1M1 Main Title [1-02 0:00-1:31]
  2. 1M2 New Start [1-04 0:00-0:54]
  3. 1M2 The Imperial Probe (portion) [1-02 2:30-3:53]
  4. 1M2 Insert Bar 80 [1-04 0:54-1:14]

In the final film, they followed steps 1,2, and 3, but then replaced step 4 with music tracked in from 5M1 Crash Landing instead of using 1M2 Insert Bar 80.

 

So that's the only edit you need to make for your set, and it's not that hard to do!  It makes a nice bonus track, obviously you want the Main Title paired with the unedited 1M2 to open your presentation.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tallguy said:

The next big change I'm going to make is swap out The Imperial March for the original intro to Vader's fleet. I'm treating this as a special case because it's not tracked from another part of the film. Yes, we know where it comes from but within the film it is original music. So it isn't the same case as (for example) Hyperspace replacing Luke's Rescue. And (and here is the important part) I have always loved the way it sounds.

 

The film does not replace the opening of 2M4 The Probe Scanner (Aboard The Executor) with music taken from the album version of The Imperial March!  It uses different takes from the recording of that cue than what was used to make the album version.  If you listen carefully, you will hear instrumentation differences.  So, if you want to include in your set what the film does, you have to rip the music from the film itself, and it will have sound effects.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Where this is going to get hard is all the Yoda stuff. A lot of it isn't in the film and it's hard for me to keep track of.

 

I don't understand what issues there is.   The 1997 set is already chronological with no edits to any cues or anything.  What is there to do?

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1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

He breaks it right when Threepio gets into to pod. (Which is an aesthetically pleasing place to break the cue to be sure.)

 

 

 

To be fair all of the OT edits on my channel are quite old, and I've been planning on redoing them each from scratch at some point (I just finished redoing the prequels). I believe this edit was done before the sheet music leaked, so the break was just a guess on my part.

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39 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

To be fair all of the OT edits on my channel are quite old, and I've been planning on redoing them each from scratch at some point (I just finished redoing the prequels). I believe this edit was done before the sheet music leaked, so the break was just a guess on my part.

 

Excellent news. Any pointers? 

 

@Jay I'll respond to your post when I have more time and attention other that to say: greatly appreciated! 

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On 30/09/2021 at 11:26 AM, Jay said:

That isn't correct.

 

More Rescue is the scene where Luke, Han, and Chewie shoot up the prison cells control room area and take over.  It was part of "The Last Battle" on the OST and 1993 Anthology, and titled "Detention Block Ambush" on the 1997 set.

 

The Rescue is the scene where stormtroopers then show up and they have to fend them off before jumping into the garbage chute.  It was part of "Rescue of the Princess" on the OST and 1993 Anthology, and titled "Shootout In The Cell Bay" on the 1997 set.

 

So it's correct that More Rescue goes before The Rescue.

 

Oh wow, weird! I'd convinced myself it was the other way around.

 

image.png

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2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

If I hadn't heard where the real break is on the Radio Play

 

Where was this exactly? I don't recall it appearing anywhere off the top of my head; if this is indeed the case I'd be very interested in listening to it.

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3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Where was this exactly? I don't recall it appearing anywhere off the top of my head; if this is indeed the case I'd be very interested in listening to it.

 

The first part is in Episode 3 at about 14:12. The second part can be heard in Episode 1 at 14:52. I think I read it was used elsewhere as well. None of it clean. :(

 

5 hours ago, Jay said:

So that's the only edit you need to make for your set, and it's not that hard to do!  It makes a nice bonus track, obviously you want the Main Title paired with the unedited 1M2 to open your presentation.

 

If I'm following you correctly my intention is to use:

  • 1M1 Main Title [1-02 0:00-1:31]
  • 1M2 New Start [1-04 0:00-0:54]
  • 1M2 The Imperial Probe (portion) [1-02 2:30-8:08]

That way I get the opening as heard in the film and I get the complete Imperial Probe. (Is that whole section from 2:30 onward all called The Imperial Probe?) Then I just have to figure out how to present the original 1M2 and 1M2 Insert Bar 80 in the bonus section.

 

Thanks so much for this. It cleared a lot of things up for me.

 

5 hours ago, Jay said:

The film does not replace the opening of 2M4 The Probe Scanner (Aboard The Executor) with music taken from the album version of The Imperial March!  It uses different takes from the recording of that cue than what was used to make the album version.  If you listen carefully, you will hear instrumentation differences.  So, if you want to include in your set what the film does, you have to rip the music from the film itself, and it will have sound effects.

 

Interesting. Well, I'll probably still use the concert version of the March since that it's what we have that is closest to the film. (I'll have to listen harder for the differences.) But that gives me hope that if we ever get the Ultimate edition that they will put that in the main program and put what's on the RCA disc as a bonus since it's original material that is in the film.

 

5 hours ago, Jay said:

I don't understand what issues there is.   The 1997 set is already chronological with no edits to any cues or anything.  What is there to do?

 

Apparently nothing! I think I may have been intimidated / confused by the liner notes in terms of what was used, unused, what was on the original LP, the Arista box, etc.

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35 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

If I'm following you correctly my intention is to use:

  • 1M1 Main Title [1-02 0:00-1:31]
  • 1M2 New Start [1-04 0:00-0:54]
  • 1M2 The Imperial Probe (portion) [1-02 2:30-8:08]

That way I get the opening as heard in the film and I get the complete Imperial Probe. (Is that whole section from 2:30 onward all called The Imperial Probe?)

 

 

That's one way to start your custom album off I guess;  It always made more sense to me to start the score off with Williams' original intentions and save those later revisions as bonus track material, but it's your edit so whatever makes you happy I guess.

 

It isn't just everything after 2:30 that is entirely 1M2 The Imperial Probe, everything after 1:31 in that track is entirely 1M2 The Imperial Probe!  In other words, that track is made up of:

 

1-02 Main Title / The Ice Planet Hoth (8:08)

  • 0:00-1:31 = 1M1 Main Title
  • 1:31-end = 1M2 The Imperial Probe

 

In my view the fact that 1M2 New Start got used in the final film and 1M2 Insert Bar 80 did not is irrelevant; What matters is that the entire 1M2 The Imperial Probe is how Williams envisioned his score starting, and the later inserts are just something the director later asked for that don't improve the music (IMO), just offer a different idea (that IMO isn't as good as the original idea).  So that's why I like leaving the full 1M2 to start things off, and the shortened 1M2 with the New Start and Bar 80 ending as a bonus track.  But, that's me.

 

35 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Then I just have to figure out how to present the original 1M2 and 1M2 Insert Bar 80 in the bonus section.

 

You'd just do this

 

  1. 1M1 Main Title & the start of 1M2 The Imperial Probe [1-02 0:00-3:53]
  2. 1M2 Insert Bar 80 [1-04 0:54-1:14]

That's it.

 

35 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Interesting. Well, I'll probably still use the concert version of the March since that it's what we have that is closest to the film. (I'll have to listen harder for the differences.) But that gives me hope that if we ever get the Ultimate edition that they will put that in the main program and put what's on the RCA disc as a bonus since it's original material that is in the film.

 

Again that makes no sense to me.  2M4 The Probe Scanner is what JW intended to be heard as part of his score here, and it's such a freaking AWESOME cue!  The fact that the film's director rejected it and grabbed some scraps from the recording floor to use instead is irrelevant to me, the maestro's pure composition is what matters.  I'd absolutely love to get the takes he put in the film clean some day as a bonus track on an expanded CD (I would call it "The Imperial March (Alternate)" and have it be the same composition we know, but use the takes that got slapped into the film here at the start and other interesting different takes for the rest).

 

35 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Apparently nothing! I think I may have been intimidated / confused by the liner notes in terms of what was used, unused, what was on the original LP, the Arista box, etc.

 

I don't see why it really matters what the fim's director dialed out in the final cut; When listening to the score I want to hear the unedited cues as JW recorded them!  But that's just me I guess.

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18 minutes ago, Jay said:

Again that makes no sense to me.  2M4 The Probe Scanner is what JW intended to be heard as part of his score here, and it's such a freaking AWESOME cue!  The fact that the film's director rejected it and grabbed some scraps from the recording floor to use instead is irrelevant to me, the maestro's pure composition is what matters.  I'd absolutely love to get the takes he put in the film clean some day as a bonus track on an expanded CD (I would call it "The Imperial March (Alternate)" and have it be the same composition we know, but use the takes that got slapped into the film here at the start and other interesting different takes for the rest).

 

My guess is maybe he's trying to do like an isolated score type edit?

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I normally like to place the composer's latest revisions in the main program and leave earlier alternates for the end...but with the start of ESB, the multiple inserts make that decision more difficult for me. If you go with Williams' latest revisions, you end up cutting out some great material and chopping up a longer cue into separate parts. But if you go with the original, you miss out on the more mysterious opening to the film.

 

In any case, I certainly agree with Jay (and many others here) that I want to hear what the composer wrote and recorded, not what the film editor included in the final cut. For something like ESB, the film benefits from the way the score was pared down and replaced in parts, but when I listen to it outside of the film, I want to hear the score that was recorded.

 

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When it comes down to it you gotta treat everything on a case by case basis, and make the decisions that result in the edit you most enjoy listening to! 

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32 minutes ago, Jay said:

When it comes down to it you gotta treat everything on a case by case basis, and make the decisions that result in the edit you most enjoy listening to! 

 

The trouble is, I love both versions just about equally! :drool:

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@Manakin Skywalker @Tallguy The Inperial Attack break is between the big brass crescendo for Vader sending out Stormroopers to search for the plans, and the sustained strings with muted brass for them searching in the hallway with Leia looking around the corner, 3:38 of Manakin's Part 1 video.

 

The clean end is (IIRC) used when Antilles sends out Leia or something.

On 30/09/2021 at 12:29 PM, stravinsky said:

A mine of information as ever. Thankyou 

Just listening to the opening of "The Sandman Attacks" again. Fantastic turbulent/threatening music with that strange little Piccolo moment. Would also love to hear this cue separated. 

Fron what I remember, you just start with that horn rip for Luke picking up the binoculars and heading to see where the Sand People are.

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

Again that makes no sense to me.  2M4 The Probe Scanner is what JW intended to be heard as part of his score here, and it's such a freaking AWESOME cue!  The fact that the film's director rejected it and grabbed some scraps from the recording floor to use instead is irrelevant to me, the maestro's pure composition is what matters.  I'd absolutely love to get the takes he put in the film clean some day as a bonus track on an expanded CD (I would call it "The Imperial March (Alternate)" and have it be the same composition we know, but use the takes that got slapped into the film here at the start and other interesting different takes for the rest).

 

The director asked for the sunset in Star Wars to be rescored too, and that worked out OK. ;)

 

The way I see it is that Williams wrote both openings intentionally for what ended up on screen. I don't have a super preference for either of them. But it kinda bugs me when I plug in ESB to listen to that I never hear the actual opening of the movie. JW included the original on the album so that might tip his hand. But since I always have the original LP edit of Empire handy, I know where to find the original version.

 

I originally struggled with how to present this because I was thinking I had to included Bar 80. But then I realized that I could have the film opening and then just let the whole rest of the track play. Chewie's intro is one of my favorite pieces of music in all of Star Wars.

 

56 minutes ago, Datameister said:

The trouble is, I love both versions just about equally! 

 

Right?!?

 

3 hours ago, Jay said:

Again that makes no sense to me.  2M4 The Probe Scanner is what JW intended to be heard as part of his score here, and it's such a freaking AWESOME cue!  The fact that the film's director rejected it and grabbed some scraps from the recording floor to use instead is irrelevant to me, the maestro's pure composition is what matters. 

 

This is where I have a little bit less of a leg to stand on. The only reason I'm trying to approximate the film is because a) it isn't used anywhere else in the film like Hyperspace is and b) I don't like that version of Vader's fleet nearly as much. I admit it's probably the grayest area of my assembly according to my "rules".

 

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

My guess is maybe he's trying to do like an isolated score type edit?

 

Not... exactly. My rules (such as they are) are: If it was rescored, go with the final version. If it was dialed out but not rescored, keep it. If it was replaced with tracked music heard elsewhere in the film (my Probe Scanner caveat) then keep the original. We'll see how this holds up when I get to Jedi. (I'll do an isolated score eventually.)

 

Hmmm. Reading what I wrote I realize that I'll have to do something with the probe droid portion of Probe Scanner. Drat.

 

3 hours ago, Jay said:

I don't see why it really matters what the film's director dialed out in the final cut; When listening to the score I want to hear the unedited cues as JW recorded them!  But that's just me I guess.

 

This was in response to the Yoda sections. Yes I intend to keep them all as scored. There aren't any alternates or anything funky there are there?

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

When it comes down to it you gotta treat everything on a case by case basis, and make the decisions that result in the edit you most enjoy listening to! 

 

It's funny how these scores make one feel responsible. But I will always split the scene at Ben's house into three tracks and nobody can stop me!

 

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Real Life has been annoyingly real this week. Hopefully I can get back to this this weekend.

 

On 02/10/2021 at 6:51 AM, blondheim said:

All this confusion is why it would be so nice to have a composer-approved main program assembly of each saga score.

 

Just remember that the full version of Desert Chase is not on the Indiana Jones Concord set.

 

In the back of my mind is the improbable wish that if I do this that someone will announce the Big Star Wars Set (or at least the OT). ;)

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On 01/10/2021 at 10:42 AM, Jay said:

 

The film does not replace the opening of 2M4 The Probe Scanner (Aboard The Executor) with music taken from the album version of The Imperial March!  It uses different takes from the recording of that cue than what was used to make the album version.  If you listen carefully, you will hear instrumentation differences.  So, if you want to include in your set what the film does, you have to rip the music from the film itself, and it will have sound effects.

 

That's interesting. I was under the impression it was tracked from the concert recording too, mostly because of the Mike Matessino article in here: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/backissues/viewissue.cfm?issueID=10

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6 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

That's interesting. I was under the impression it was tracked from the concert recording too, mostly because of the Mike Matessino article in here: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/backissues/viewissue.cfm?issueID=10

 

It is taken from the concert recording, just not the same take used in the album. ;)

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11 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

That's interesting. I was under the impression it was tracked from the concert recording too, mostly because of the Mike Matessino article in here: https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/backissues/viewissue.cfm?issueID=10

 

Oh this is invaluable. Thank you. (It makes me a little dizzy to read early 1997 news. "Goldsmith in concert", "John Barry not returning for Bond, new composer unknown", "Ron Jones to score Star Trek video game". Wow!)

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  • 9 months later...

Thanks for that - that's good info!

 

And thanks for proving the exact timestamp in the episode where you can hear the clean opening!

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On 29/09/2021 at 3:35 PM, Tallguy said:

(I don't know if this is worth it's own thread and I will certainly move it to an appropriate one if asked.)

 

Since Disney doesn't seem to be moving on this I will boldly go where I'm sure lots of people have gone before: Making MY Star Wars albums. (I'll be sticking to the OT.)

 

I had a few guidelines for myself: I'm using the original cue names to the best of my knowledge. Which is a big part of why I'm bothering to post it here for a set of more knowledgeable eyes. I have a lot of questions.

 

I'm really trying to codify when I feel like a track should be separate or combined. (This is a way more relevant to Empire and Jedi.) If the last note of one track leads directly into the first note of the next (e.g. The Mouse Robot to More Rescue or Stand By to Approaching the Target) AND the focus of the scene doesn't change then I combine them / keep them combined. I'll do the same for Losing a Hand to Hyperspace on Empire. But the Battle of Hoth will be broken the heck up, ditto Endor. Different cues, different characters, different scenes.

 

OK, here is Star Wars. I'm realizing that I really know Star Wars but I don't know Empire as well as I think. Jedi might be a bit of a trial for me.

 

Film

01. Twentieth Century Fox Fanfare with CinemaScope Extension
02. Main Title, The War, The Escape Hatch (1M2,1M3, 1M4-2M1)

I can't imagine any "real" edition of this score would be presented this way with the main title and the Imperial Attack cues combined. But after making an isolated score of Star Wars and realizing that last note of Main Title leads right into The War I can't hear it any other way. Maybe when the Super Set comes out I'll be surprised.

 

OTOH sure, it's nice to just listen to The War / The Escape Hatch by itself. (Like we have been doing for 44 years.) That's what the bonus section is for. (Again, can't see this being this way on a real release.)

 

03. Desert Song (1M5/2M1)
04. The Little People (2M3)
05. More Little People (2M3 Rev.)
06. R-2 (2M4)
07. The Princess Appears  (3M1 Rev.)
08. Lost R-2 (3M2 New)
09. The Sand Speeder (3M3 Rev.)
10. The Sandman Attacks (3M4/4M1 Rev.)
11. Obi-Wan Kenobi (4M2)
12. The Force (4M2A)
13. The Princess Reappears (4M3)
14. Learn About the Force (A Home Destroyed b1-14B) (4M4 Rev)
    
Is this really also called A Home Destroyed? I just couldn't name it that.

 

15. A Home Destroyed b31-72,15-30 1 (4M4 Rev. [4M4A])
16. A Hive of Villainy (5M1)
17. The Inner City (5M6 Rev)
18. Blasting Away (6M1)
19. The Destruction of Alderaan (6M5 New)
20. Is It a Bird? (7M1 New old 6M3)
21. The Hatch Opens (7M1/7M2 New)
22. The Mouse Robot, More Rescue (7M2, 8M2 New)

 

Are these titles right? Does "More Rescue" come before "The Rescue"?

 

23. The Rescue (8M2 Rev.)
24. The Water Snake (8M3 Rev.)
25. The Walls Converge (8M4)
26. Ben Creeps Around (9M1)
27. The Swashbucklers (9M2)

 

I went back and forth on if I should separate these two cues. It's one of those instances where they are clearly separate ideas but there is the tiniest connective tissue. Plus you can hear the end of Ben Creeps Around at the start of The Swashbuckler. I'd be very curious to hear these two actually separate as they were recorded.

 

My edit isn't perfect, but it works. (I'm open to improving.)
    
28. Ben's Death, Here They Come (9M3/10M1, 10M2)
29. Stand By, Approaching the Target (10M3/11M1, 11M2 Rev)
30. The Last Battle (12M1)
31. End Titles (12M2, 12M2)

 

Source cues and suite
32. Cantina Band
33. Cantina Band #2

 

I went back and forth on keeping the Cantina source in the main program or no. I finally decided that there is a better than even chance that I skip these when I listen so I moved them.

 

34. The Princess Theme (27A)

 

Alternates and Discrete Cues
35. Lost R2 (Alternate) (3M2 New)
36. The War (1M3)
37. The Escape Hatch (1M4-2M1)

 

Does anyone have a good way to make the break between The War and The Escape Hatch "clean"? I saw some discussion about these being separate in the Radio Play but covered with dialog. I'm not the musical engineer in my family (and the one who is is too expensive.)

 

38. The Mouse Robot (7M2)
39. More Rescue (8M2 New)
40. Ben's Death (9M3/10M1)
41. Here They Come (10M2)

 

Just realized I broke this in totally the wrong place! I broke it at "We're not out of this yet" rather than, well, "Here they come!"


42. Stand By (10M3)
43. Approaching the Target (11M1)
44. Main Title Take 16
45. Main Title Take 17
46. Main Title Take 18
47. Main Title Take 19
48. Main Title Take 20

 

Next up: Empire!

Well Star Wars is the best of the three.

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I've been taken away from this project by Real Life. Maybe I can get back to it. (Everything is in boxes. In a couple of weeks I won't have anything else to do!)

 

10 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

I was just listening to the ESB radio drama (episode 4 at 9:33) and I discovered that you can actually hear the clean opening (buried under sfx of course, but not overlapped with any other cue) of 1m2 Insert Bar 80! It turns out that the harp which I had always assumed to be the ending of 1m2 New Start is actually not.

 

The real way that the track breaks down is like this:

1-04 The Imperial Probe / Aboard The Executor (4:24)

  • 0:00-0:55 = 1M2 New Start
  • 0:52-1:14 = 1M2 Insert Bar 80
  • 1:14-end = 2M4 The Probe Scanner

The woodwinds from 0:52-0:55 are the ending of 1m2 New Start, but the harp from 0:52-0:55 is from 1m2 Insert Bar 80. It would appear that the harp from 0:51-0:52 and the harp from 0:52-0:55 are completely separate performances from completely separate cues. I would never have guessed that just by listening to the SE album, but it seems to be the case based on the sheet music as well.

 

Now I'm super impressed by that SE album edit, it has to be one of the most seamless transitions ever, especially for two cues that were not designed to overlap each other

 

This is the kind of expertise and attention to detail that we come here for. Thank you!

 

So... Um. I get confused here. Weren't New Start and Insert Bar 80 meant to be separate in the film? And The Probe Scanner even more so?

 

1 hour ago, JoeinAR said:

Well Star Wars is the best of the three.

 

True! Unless you think it isn't. For me The Empire Strikes Back is an acceptable answer, of course. Depends on the day. As I get older for some reason Star Wars takes a more commanding lead. (I think it's the Star Wars Darth Vader theme.)

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17 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

So... Um. I get confused here. Weren't New Start and Insert Bar 80 meant to be separate in the film? And The Probe Scanner even more so?

 

The original plan for the opening of the film was:

  1. 1M1 Main Title [1-02 0:00-1:31]
  2. 1M2 The Imperial Probe [1-02 1:31-end]

The revised plan was:

  1. 1M1 Main Title [1-02 0:00-1:31]
  2. 1M2 New Start [1-04 0:00-0:55]
  3. 1M2 The Imperial Probe (portion 1) [1-02 2:30-3:53]
  4. 1M2 Insert Bar 80 [1-04 0:55-1:14]
  5. (no score)
  6. 1M2 The Imperial Probe (portion 2) [1-02 5:20-end]

 

The final film follows the revised plan except they did not use 1M2 Insert Bar 80, tracking in the ending of "5M1 Crash Landing" instead.

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My dream would be an extra disc included with any future release of the OT scores which features new recordings of every scrap of inserts or alternates from the three movies which were written but never recorded. Don't know if it would fill a complete disc though. It could even be a Kickstarter campaign. Although rights wise it would probably get nowhere. Would anyone even know where to start with a list of what this might look like? For such iconic music I'm sure Star Wars music fans would jump at the chance of contributing. 

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Here's something from ESB I've never understood that I'd love to know.

 

Can somebody explain all the variants of the Finale and End Credits cues? I'm aware of at least two different recordings of Finale and at least two different recordings of the End Credits but I'm not exactly sure why they exist and which is available where

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12 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

Here's something from ESB I've never understood that I'd love to know.

 

Can somebody explain all the variants of the Finale and End Credits cues? I'm aware of at least two different recordings of Finale and at least two different recordings of the End Credits but I'm not exactly sure why they exist and which is available where

I'll answer what I know: the Imperial March segment has 2 versions. The one on most albums has the stronger opening which was not used in any version of the film. The softer opening, which is in the film, is on the album where its attached to the film version of 'Ewok Celebration'. Not sure how that exactly came to pass but it did.

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12 minutes ago, Brando said:

The softer opening, which is in the film, is on the album where its attached to the film version of 'Ewok Celebration'. Not sure how that exactly came to pass but it did.


Im sure it was just an effort to include both alternates on the same disc in the Anthology box while the album versions are represented earlier in the set.  Here’s what the liner notes say.


07D1B152-969D-42DD-A747-ED960B8D2362.jpeg

 

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Okay so to recap there's two versions of Finale

 

The longer version used on the original OST (John Neal mix), the 1997 SE set (Brian Risner mix), and the 2018 remaster (Eric Tomlinson mix)

 

The shorter version used on the Crimson Empire audiobook. 

 

The anthology set and the film seem to use the shorter version but segue to the longer version for the last statement of the love theme

 

Did I get all that? 

 

As for the End Credits cue, this is where I'm really confused

13 minutes ago, mstrox said:

 Here’s what the liner notes say.


07D1B152-969D-42DD-A747-ED960B8D2362.jpeg

 

This seems to imply that the film version is an entirely separate recording, but the John Takis cue list (https://www.jwfan.com/?p=4092) refers to it as "End Credit Insert"

 

Is it an insert that replaces just part of the cue with the rest of it just artificially sped up? Or was the entire cue rerecorded with the new insert

 

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There are two versions of the Finale. There's the OST/Special Edition mix, and the Anthology mix, which is orchestrated a bit differently and slightly shorter. It also seems to be identical to the Crimson Empire audiobook take, but the very ending seems to be the same take as the other albums. So I theorize that the Anthology/Crimson Empire takes are the same, but the ending take on the Anthology was changed to the film take to segue properly into the End Credits (whereas the Crimson Empire version uses one continuous, unedited take, with the original ending).

 

For the End Credits, there is only one full version, and a very short insert that was edited into the film version (and also released on the Anthology set). You can hear the edit points very clearly, so it's definitely not one continuous version.

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42 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

There are two versions of the Finale. There's the OST/Special Edition mix, and the Anthology mix, which is orchestrated a bit differently and slightly shorter. It also seems to be identical to the Crimson Empire audiobook take, but the very ending seems to be the same take as the other albums. So I theorize that the Anthology/Crimson Empire takes are the same, but the ending take on the Anthology was changed to the film take to segue properly into the End Credits (whereas the Crimson Empire version uses one continuous, unedited take, with the original ending).

 

For the End Credits, there is only one full version, and a very short insert that was edited into the film version (and also released on the Anthology set). You can hear the edit points very clearly, so it's definitely not one continuous version.

 

I mean, it's not that short, and certainly not insignificant. It covers the biggest rendition of Yoda's theme.

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51 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I mean, it's not that short, and certainly not insignificant. It covers the biggest rendition of Yoda's theme.

 

You're right, I was under the impression it only covered the very opening of the Imperial March. Looking at the sheets though, it's much longer.

 

1 hour ago, enderdrag64 said:

So then that means the anthology/film version is faster because it was artificially sped up?

 

Yes, the entire cue is at a slightly higher pitch (not just including the insert), which would indicate the tape was playing a little faster.

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Can anyone tell me why the LSO was chosen to record Star Wars in 1977?

I know the orchestra were involved with recording British Film Scores mostly conducted by Muir Matheison from the 40s to the 60s. Was there a lull in soundtrack work for the LSO before Star Wars? 

 

I read somewhere that Fox were hoping that Damnation Alley would be the big hit of 1977 and that as a consequence George Lucas' little movie wasn't paid much attention. 

How did it come about therefore that a low to mid budget movie like Star Wars would end up with a stellar soundtrack recording by one of the top five orchestras in the world? 

 

Did Lucas specifically want the LSO or was it John Williams idea? 

 

Had Williams actually worked with the LSO at all before 1977? I'm not sure. 

 

Lastly why didn't Kurtz as producer just get the score recorded in Holywood? 

 

Extra lastly were all the major studios still in possession of their own orchestras in 1977? Like the famous MGM, Warner Bros and Fox ensembles? Or had all of that died out by the mid 70s?

 

Sorry if this the wrong topic for this thread but I know the minds on here will have the answers. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

Can anyone tell me why the LSO was chosen to record Star Wars in 1977?

I know the orchestra were involved with recording British Film Scores mostly conducted by Muir Matheison from the 40s to the 60s. Was there a lull in soundtrack work for the LSO before Star Wars? 

 

I read somewhere that Fox were hoping that Damnation Alley would be the big hit of 1977 and that as a consequence George Lucas' little movie wasn't paid much attention. 

How did it come about therefore that a low to mid budget movie like Star Wars would end up with a stellar soundtrack recording by one of the top five orchestras in the world? 

 

Did Lucas specifically want the LSO or was it John Williams idea? 

 

Had Williams actually worked with the LSO at all before 1977? I'm not sure. 

 

Lastly why didn't Kurtz as producer just get the score recorded in Holywood? 

 

Extra lastly were all the major studios still in possession of their own orchestras in 1977? Like the famous MGM, Warner Bros and Fox ensembles? Or had all of that died out by the mid 70s?

 

Sorry if this the wrong topic for this thread but I know the minds on here will have the answers. 

 

 

From what I've read they chose to record in London since principal photography was done there and it was cheaper than in the States, the LSO was chosen specifically because it's usual conductor was André Previn, a good friend of John Williams.

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