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Jerry Goldsmith's LEGEND (1985) - 2021 2-CD Music Box Records


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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

 

Regarding the recent edition of the Always score does a much better integration of the synthesizer and orchestra.

 

 

Well, it's not really a comparison. Nothing in that goes beyond dreamy, wafting new age sounds, so the question of integration isn't nearly as relevant.

 

Horner was the second of the *old* breed of composers who went as far in the synthesizer department, even though he hardly used it in his fantasy scores.

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50 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

No love for RUNAWAY, @Yavar Moradi?

 

I like it! I just can't fathom it being on someone's Goldsmith Top 10 when he did so many more incredible scores.

 

I also have issues with the old synth sounds on it. I love the synths in Damnation Alley which was even older, but for some reason the Runaway synths grate on my ears in a way Jerry's two other all-synth scores from half a decade later (Alien Nation and Criminal Law) do not, even though I think Runaway is easily the best of the three compositionally. I just kinda long for someone to transcribe it for orchestra and newly record it so it can shine as a composition. Jerry "orchestrated" it for synths so it should be possible and I know the great Leigh Phillips is interested in that particular challenge...

Yavar

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7 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

You left out his most extensive use of synthesisers, in a score: RUNAWAY; a score that is all-time top-10 Jerry for me - no, I'm not joking!

That is not a score that is much-discussed regarding the pro- or contra-synth question. Most people don't like the score being completely synthetic.

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I do, but I've been listening to electronic music since 1974.

I regard RUNAWAY not as an electronic score, but as a score that just happens to compromise of synthesisers. Weird? Maybe, but that's the way I see it. Orchestral, or synth; it's all the same, to me. That's why my favourite Jarre score is WITNESS (and no, I'm not joking!).

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On 26/10/2021 at 12:05 AM, GoodMusician said:

I honestly adore this score and have studied it in as about much depth as one can... looking at the track list and track lengths I'm hoping for a few things and based on how it looks / the track list, I'm guessing Disc 1 is the Silva release (with remastering and 2 new tracks) and Disc 2 is the OST (with remastering and 2 new tracks).


Disc 1 
-"Main Titles" and "The Goblins" (disc 2 presents 'The Goblins' isolated unlike the Silva release)

-"My True Loves Eyes" and "The Cottage" (same on both releases really)

-"The Unicorns" is a combination of two tracks: 'Jack Surprises Lilly' and 'The Unicorns' both of which have alternates. IF Disc 1 is the SILVA and Disc 2 is the OST, then this will present BOTH versions of 'Jack Surprises Lilly' but neither will have 'The Unicorns' alt.

'Jack Surprises Lilly' (track 07 on the OST) has a different opening than the Silva release (track 03). One's more energetic while the other has a sustained moment.

'The Unicorns' has a section of about 15 seconds that's a repeated / choirless section that was on a boot sourced from the DAT tapes around the 3:45 mark in the combined track. It would make this compiled track over 8 minutes which it isn't so I think it's not included.

-"Living River" / "Bumps and Hollows" / "The Freeze" - This is three tracks (per the names). Typically, the ending of "Bumps and Hollows" into "The Freeze" (approximately 45 seconds) heard on the DAT boot is omitted on the released albums. It's mostly synth swells and repeated throbbing synth so It seems to be omitted for that reason.

-"Darkness Arisen" is out of order (it should be after "The Armour / Oona's Secret") Good to finally have THIS in original quality!!! Its only been on the DAT tape boot. It would be heard when Darkness speaks with the Goblins to confirm they killed the unicorn(s) plural (but they hadn't killed the mare).

-"The Fairies / The Riddle" There's an alternate or more probably an extension to "The Fairies" in the film which seems to have been lost which is really disappointing tbh... maybe one day we'll get lucky and they'll find the tapes.

The Silva also has a different ending to "The Riddle" than the OST so we should be getting both of these if they did what I suspect.

-"Sing The Wee" i kinda wish we knew more about how this was to be heard in the film (or that it existed in one of the cuts). 

-"Playmates" now THIS track intrigues me! Best I can tell it is THREE omitted cues. It's firstly a cue for when Brown Tom fights off the Goblins with his frying pan (and thinks he got shot). It sounds (based on the sample) like it THEN goes into "Hall of Columns" next BUT there's about 30 seconds left which makes me think it's also the cue for when they set the mirrors later in the film (only about 30 seconds). This TRACK ALONE will up the amount of new music by three cues I suspect!!!!!

-"Forgive Me" not much to say but it seems to be complete
 

-"Faerie Dance" there are technically 2 main version of this cue, then an alternate additional solo violin mix of 1, and lastly the mixing of the voices heard in the film. I'm hoping that the alternate at the end of Disc 2 is the Film alternate and not just the alternate violin mix of the album version heard on the DAT boot but they're the same length so I'm thinking maybe not... but we'll see!

-"The Armour" not much to say but seems complete.

-"Oona / The Jewels" are the bookends to "Hall of Columns" which is in the new music on Track 08. 

-"The Dress Waltz"  this confuses me... it was one of the biggest points of contention I had with the boots which is this misunderstanding that there was an alternate. It's not so much an alternate composition as an alternate presentation. You see, after this beautiful waltz queue, Goldsmith goes a bit nuts with the throbbing / crashing synth sound as Darkness steps out of the mirror. This "extension" is omitted / faded out on the albums and is often marked as an alternate when included. Based on the track length noted on Disc 2, I'm thinking it's going to JUST be the full track (with that new section) although I will be HAPPILY wrong if its a true alternate!

-"Darkness Falls" is a combination of a few tracks again. 'Darkness appears' which is right after "The Dress Waltz" which is just gorgeous (the film uses a choirless version which is just as haunting). Next you'd then have 'Setting the Mirrors' which is a new cue I think is on that new track, then the rest goes through to the destruction of Darkness.

*If anyone is interested, the music used in this section of the UK cut / Directors cut is a mix of music from Psycho II (also by Jerry Goldsmith) and music from Slugs The Movie by Tim Souster).


-'The Ring' is another cue I wish we would get lucky and find the masters for because the film has a very beautiful version that reminds me almost of a finale to one of the Williams's disaster films but then goes into this beautiful harp rendition of "True Loves Eyes" that feels very 'Poltergeist' and is just gorgeous. The alternate version we have is a bit bigger and is a rendition of "Bumps and Hollows" instead. 

-"Reunited" as with the alternate version of the previous track, there seems to be an unreleased alternate for a vocal-less continuation of "True Love's Eyes." It then picks up with the version we hear on the albums just after the vocals. Another cue I fear is lost to time... I'm glad we have the alternate as it includes the singing and such but so sad that the score wasn't preserved better :-/ 

All in all, I think this'll be a great upgrade on what we have! It includes 4 new tracks (by my count 5 new cues and one expanded cue possibly new cue!?) 

 

On 27/10/2021 at 9:39 AM, Brundlefly said:

Is the score complete now - meaning there is at least one version of every cue?



This will give you some information, but I can elaborate more if you'd like and it seems like my overview was spot on for what this release was. 

EDIT: Except they unfortunately used the OST 'The Unicorns' on both disc 1 and disc 2, effectively omitting the Silva alternate section from the release.

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3 hours ago, GoodMusician said:

-"Sing The Wee" i kinda wish we knew more about how this was to be heard in the film (or that it existed in one of the cuts). 

Butting in with my very limited knowledge, having heard the track once and seen the movie once years ago: maybe it was meant to be sped up and pitched up?

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7 minutes ago, Holko said:

Butting in with my very limited knowledge, having heard the track once and seen the movie once years ago: maybe it was meant to be sped up and pitched up?

I'm a bit bothered I hadn't thought of this... even the orchestrations are overall pretty low excepting some small part which, doing even some medium playback adjustment doesn't sound overly fake... 

Granted, the main characters whod be singing it didn't have high voices which is why I don't think this had occurred to me... plus it was released on the album unadjusted...but I think its a possibility at least!

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Great Release,

Wished for the Fairies revised version as is the filmversion.

Original version we have .

I do think that LIVING RIVER song is new or it is a well done Remastering.

The unreleased tracks sounds Amazing.

as is the Booklet.

The National Philharmonic Orchestra were members from The Londen Symphony Orchestra.

As for the boot ,

there are a few Alternates in poor sound as Yavar and GoodMusician told.

But nothing for The Fairies Revised unfortunately.

Great Release and Love everything about it. 

 

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On 30/10/2021 at 9:32 PM, blondheim said:

I can't wait to read a detailed review of this new release

Unfortunately there's not much else to say.

Disc 1 is inessence the SILVA release with some EQing done to it. The only difference is "The Unicorns" they pulled from the OST instead so it omits the alternate intro. 

The new tracks on it sound really good without going back to the originals.

"Darkness Arisen" is suppose to score when Darkness appears to the Goblins asking if they killed both unicorns.

"Playmates" is 3 unreleased / unused cues. The first is when Brown Tom fights off the goblins to protect the mare using his frying pan, the 2nd cue in the assembly is the part where Oona chases Lilly through the Hall of Columns, and the last cue is for as they set up the mirrors. None are used in the film or had been released before.

Disc 2 is the OST with VERY minor EQing done.

The Alternate Faerie Dance is a true alternate (the version intended for use in the film but the footage was not completed due to a major fire that burned down the entire set and They must have lost what they had as all that exists of it is this video:
 

 
"The Dress Waltz" alternate is NOT an alternate, but rather the full cue as the presentations previously omitted the ending heard as Darkness exists the mirror.
 

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2 hours ago, GoodMusician said:

Disc 1 is inessence the SILVA release with some EQing done to it. The only difference is "The Unicorns" they pulled from the OST instead so it omits the alternate intro. 

 

Sounds more like the complete intro, as the Silva version seems to have the middle part cut out. 

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1 hour ago, publicist said:

 

Sounds more like the complete intro, as the Silva version seems to have the middle part cut out. 

They are two different performances. You can see how they otherwise match.Screen Shot 2021-11-01 at 3.43.40 AM.png

 


The OST variant has the opening synth 2 octaves higher than in the silva release.

The silva Release's take also shortens the frantic moment (Jack's theme) for a longer sustain before the flute accent as Lilly spins around angrily at about 00:13 into the cue. 

Screen Shot 2021-11-01 at 3.47.14 AM.png

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Yeah, but the effect still is the same: it sounds like a longer part was shortened. It's nothing anyone needs another 8-minute cut for (whereas the *real* film alternates of this and 'The Ring' are sadly missing).

 

The mix downplays the synth, which is very obvious going by the opening of 'The Unicorns', but the liner notes don't specify what elements were used. The mix here is more detailed but also lacks some of the cavernous reverb from the ilva, which makes the score sounding a we bit less impressive.

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53 minutes ago, publicist said:

Yeah, but the effect still is the same: it sounds like a longer part was shortened. It's nothing anyone needs another 8-minute cut for (whereas the *real* film alternates of this and 'The Ring' are sadly missing).

 

The mix downplays the synth, which is very obvious going by the opening of 'The Unicorns', but the liner notes don't specify what elements were used. The mix here is more detailed but also lacks some of the cavernous reverb from the ilva, which makes the score sounding a we bit less impressive.

Technically speaking the Silva release had the Directors Cut "film" version of the opening (the shorter Jack fanfare with the longer sustain). 

And you're right, both are missing an insert used in the Director's cut (maybe UK cut too, I'd have to check) as Jack stakes out their hiding spot amongst the lillies up to the Goblins reveal.

And what I wouldn't give for them to find the material like the alternate 'The Ring' and such... I know it's for a shorter cut of the film but its gorgeous

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4 hours ago, publicist said:

Sounds more like the complete intro, as the Silva version seems to have the middle part cut out. 

I've heard about a bad edit the only the Silva release, but not the OST was supposed to have in the Unicorns track. That might be it.

 

7 hours ago, GoodMusician said:

"The Dress Waltz" alternate is NOT an alternate, but rather the full cue as the presentations previously omitted the ending heard as Darkness exists the mirror.

Why isn't just on CD1, integrated into the main program? Different sound quality?

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17 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Why isn't just on CD1, integrated into the main program? Different sound quality?

 

Yes, the sound quality of the two alternates on disc 2 is not that good.

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2 hours ago, Positivatee said:

In other words, this release sounds like a disappointment, and don't delete your older copies. 


Only if you care about a short inferior opening for “The Unicorns”. Everything else is here, and more.

 

i think they must have had to take the disc 2 alternates from whatever inferior source provided the longer bootleg, and it seems they improved the sound best they could. But I’d rather they do that than leave them off!

 

Yavar

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31 minutes ago, Amer said:

Any new material is worth the double dip here. Plus the OST program which I never had on cd.

yea, I mean the sound quality on the new tracks is more than most have ever had.

The Dress Waltz "alternate" I think was kept separate for that reason of the quality but its not really an Alternate.

 

4 hours ago, Positivatee said:

In other words, this release sounds like a disappointment, and don't delete your older copies. 

I wouldn't say that. Yes, its mostly a reprint of the two releases with some EQing but the new tracks are definitely worth while and sound pretty darn great! 

Plus having more LEGEND music is always ideal hehe

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  • 3 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

For anyone on the fence about this new release, check out the new Goldsmith Odyssey Soundtrack Spotlight!

https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/9568664-odyssey-soundtrack-spotlight-legend-1985

 

spotlight_legend.jpg

 

We play three of the four previously unreleased cues which premiere here. And we also play, for reference, *all* (I'm pretty sure) of the still-unreleased film alternates of certain cues, so you can hear what is still missing (unless there are other unused cues Goldsmith wrote and recorded...it's hard to tell as the written score was misplaced and we don't have a cue list from the sessions themselves). Special guests are Jeff Bond (who wrote the new liner notes) and Paul Andrew MacLean (who wrote the liner notes for the original Silva Screen expanded edition 29 years ago!)

 

Enjoy, and let me know what you all think!

 

Yavar

Interested to give this a listen! 

Hopefully my order shows up eventually lol....

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5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

For anyone on the fence about this new release, check out the new Goldsmith Odyssey Soundtrack Spotlight!

https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/9568664-odyssey-soundtrack-spotlight-legend-1985

 

spotlight_legend.jpg

 

We play three of the four previously unreleased cues which premiere here. And we also play, for reference, *all* (I'm pretty sure) of the still-unreleased film alternates of certain cues, so you can hear what is still missing (unless there are other unused cues Goldsmith wrote and recorded...it's hard to tell as the written score was misplaced and we don't have a cue list from the sessions themselves). Special guests are Jeff Bond (who wrote the new liner notes) and Paul Andrew MacLean (who wrote the liner notes for the original Silva Screen expanded edition 29 years ago!)

 

Enjoy, and let me know what you all think!

 

Yavar


The discussion of Lily Awakens alternate is interesting to me... but I disagree. There's the directors cut and the uk cut and they have differing ideas.

-One has Lilly awaken and then they kiss and then its a montage to the end.

-The other she awakens and has a conversation with Jack and eventually sings for him.

It seems like there was some reworking going on as far as how the cut would be, if there would be a song, etc. Like a revision of the section because bits of each half are used depending on the cut.

The Freeze is just a change to the way the track was presented on the album, yea. They cut the repeated section of the synth at the end / opening of the next cues. There's actually more to it than what you played (I edited it slightly out in that track you played...)

The Unicorns is an extension insert with some repeated measures again. It does sound like it was re-recording of the section to be patched in if needed--edit dependant I'm sure.

Fun talks about the score! I learned some interesting things i didn't know about the time frame in Goldsmith's life and a little more about the production. Thanks for sharing!
 

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12 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

For anyone on the fence about this new release, check out the new Goldsmith Odyssey Soundtrack Spotlight!

https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/9568664-odyssey-soundtrack-spotlight-legend-1985

 

spotlight_legend.jpg

 

We play three of the four previously unreleased cues which premiere here. And we also play, for reference, *all* (I'm pretty sure) of the still-unreleased film alternates of certain cues, so you can hear what is still missing (unless there are other unused cues Goldsmith wrote and recorded...it's hard to tell as the written score was misplaced and we don't have a cue list from the sessions themselves). Special guests are Jeff Bond (who wrote the new liner notes) and Paul Andrew MacLean (who wrote the liner notes for the original Silva Screen expanded edition 29 years ago!)

 

Enjoy, and let me know what you all think!

 

Yavar

So far I am just through half an hour of it and really enjoy the stories and the atmosphere of the talk. 

And I thought,  one good practice from other such potcasts would be helpful here: To have a listing of the musical quotes in order of their appearance in the page below. Sometimes you wonder, is this now an alternate from Legend or First Blood or Total Recall or Daphnis e Cloé from Ravel or what? That confused me a little bit.

But it is a great conversation so far.

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13 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Usually, it's pretty safe to say it's Goldsmith. :)


We quote Ravel’s Daphnis et Chloe ballet at one point — it was influential on this and NIMH.

 

16 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

So far I am just through half an hour of it and really enjoy the stories and the atmosphere of the talk. 

And I thought,  one good practice from other such potcasts would be helpful here: To have a listing of the musical quotes in order of their appearance in the page below. Sometimes you wonder, is this now an alternate from Legend or First Blood or Total Recall or Daphnis e Cloé from Ravel or what? That confused me a little bit.

But it is a great conversation so far.

 

We do often have a tracklist. Those just take the editor time to make, and he’s got his hands full right now editing the next thing! (We are hoping to get out three more podcasts in the next six weeks…)

 

Yavar

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It never fails to astound me that they spend a year making a very expensive fantasy picture with all that imagery and then don't even preserve the material. There has to be a 125 and even a 140 minute cut (boring as they may be except for design fans) and all they have left are the badly cut versions that got released.

 

And some of these cuts and music edits are worthy of italian movies of the 70's and that's no recommendation.

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1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

We quote Ravel’s Daphnis et Chloe ballet at one point — it was influential on this and NIMH.

 

Well, I'm sure Ravel ripped off Goldsmith!

 

Btw, just bought this puppy:

 

 

51skaW9MGxL._SY780_.jpg

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46 minutes ago, publicist said:

It never fails to astound me that they spend a year making a very expensive fantasy picture with all that imagery and then don't even preserve the material. There has to be a 125 and even a 140 minute cut (boring as they may be except for design fans) and all they have left are the badly cut versions that got released.

 

And some of these cuts and music edits are worthy of italian movies of the 70's and that's no recommendation.

It seems like reproaching Ridley Scott with the final product that Legend is, is just as pointless as blaming Lynch for the old Dune movie. We only ever got to see the producer's versions.

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1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

It seems like reproaching Ridley Scott with the final product that Legend is, is just as pointless as blaming Lynch for the old Dune movie. We only ever got to see the producer's versions.

This whole director's cut thing is completely overrated. I got the blu ray with Ridley Scott's director's cut of Legend. And the producer's version is better.

There are very few cases where I would consider the director's cuts better than the producer's cut. And I would say, that is not necessarily because the director or the producer has the better vision of how the movie should be.

I think, it is rather the case, that for movies, like for almost everything else, addtional expert's oppinions can help to improve a product in case they share the same artistic vision.

 

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Btw, just bought this puppy:

 

51skaW9MGxL._SY780_.jpg

Interesting. I have the DECCA complete box of Ravel's work and it has just 14 CDs. And I think, it is complete. What did they put here on seven additional CDs? (sorry for the off-topic)

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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

What did they put here on seven additional CDs? (sorry for the off-topic)

 

They're playing everything at exactly 33% reduced speed. :D

 

Actually, the five last discs are dedicated to bonuses and historical recordings, and there's also a disc of orchestrations by Ravel and others. Here's the back - you figure out the rest. :)

 

71TRI1FF2zL._SL1500_.jpg

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Ah. That looks interesting. Ravel was really a great orchestrator. 

There you think, you've got the optimal box. And then comes another box. :angryfire:

But I don't complain. The DECCA box is good. And I even haven't listened to that completely.

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Goldsmith had a nice impressionnism period in the early 80's, you can feel the french-sound influence of Debussy and Ravel, starting with Alien/Star Trek TMP, Legend, Omen Final Conflict, Poltergeist, Secret of NiMH, etc...  Even something like Inchon or The Challenge has influences from them.

 

The Forest music in Legend is basically L'enfant et les sortilèges.

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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Ah. That looks interesting. Ravel was really a great orchestrator. 

There you think, you've got the optimal box. And then comes another box. :angryfire:

But I don't complain. The DECCA box is good. And I even haven't listened to that completely.

 

I wouldn't mind at all having the Decca box. Or both. :)

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I think the main difference between modern composers like Zimmer and Elfman and guys like Goldsmith and Williams, is modern composers are influenced by film composers and the other guys influenced by concert composers.

It's all good!😊

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9 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

I think the main difference between modern composers like Zimmer and Elfman and guys like Goldsmith and Williams, is modern composers are influenced by film composers and the other guys influenced by concert composers.

It's all good!😊

But I remember reading in an interview, where Williams was asked about his Wagner influence and he said, that he didn't study Wagner much, but he studied Korngold, who obviously studied Wagner.

But Korngold was a concert composer as well. So, in that sense your statement is still valid.

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19 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

This whole director's cut thing is completely overrated. I got the blu ray with Ridley Scott's director's cut of Legend. And the producer's version is better.

There are very few cases where I would consider the director's cuts better than the producer's cut. 

 

It isn't, Scott just recycled the bad cuts because he hadn't other material to work with. Especially galling (not talking about the ton of bad music edits in Goldsmith' score) are mismatching cuts from Tom Cruise's face to a random cloud formation during the blizzard, mismatched reaction shots of Cruise and Sara obviously pulled from different parts of the film and so on.

 

It's obvious that for a big, important studio picture the first edits must have been better. Stuff like 'Legend' you only release in desperation.

29 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

But I remember reading in an interview, where Williams was asked about his Wagner influence and he said, that he didn't study Wagner much, but he studied Korngold, who obviously studied Wagner.

 

All these guys form Williams generation and before did have a healthy repertoire knowledge they could draw from, even if they didn't care much for the source (as in Williams/Wagner's case). And going by the obvious inspiration  of the Siegfried tune and the Force theme, i doubt he didn't listen to the Ring.

 

 

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2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

It isn't, Scott just recycled the bad cuts because he hadn't other material to work with. Especially galling (not talking about the ton of bad music edits in Goldsmith' score) are mismatching cuts from Tom Cruise's face to a random cloud formation during the blizzard, mismatched reaction shots of Cruise and Sara obviously pulled from different parts of the film and so on.

 

It's obvious that for a big, important studio picture the first edits must have been better. Stuff like 'Legend' you only release in desperation.

Ok, that explains a lot. I just saw the "director's cut" that is published on BluRay and I was disappointed beccause I expected the scene with Jack faorced to dance under a spell, where we got that nice music from on the Silva release. But it wasn't there. It was just cut less tight than the official cut. I didn't like it much in comparison.

 

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8 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Ok, that explains a lot. I just saw the "director's cut" that is published on BluRay and I was disappointed beccause I expected the scene with Jack faorced to dance under a spell, where we got that nice music from on the Silva release. But it wasn't there. It was just cut less tight than the official cut. I didn't like it much in comparison.

 

The UK cut ran 95 minutes and wasn't as awful as the american one, but bad enough. The director's cut runs 113 minutes and contains a prior version that already was heavily compromised (read: after the disastrous Dallas preview). Because the Goldsmith-scored version ran 140 minutes, it's clear that they tinkered a lot with the music because it didn't fit anymore (and Goldsmith was already on Rambo II, like the podcast points out).

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3 hours ago, publicist said:

And going by the obvious inspiration  of the Siegfried tune and the Force theme, i doubt he didn't listen to the Ring.

 

Williams did watch a Ring although we don't know if this was before he penned the Force theme; and he seems to have known of Wagner even prior to this event.

 

Interesting that he doesn't seem to have listened to Tristan.

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34 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Williams did watch a Ring although we don't know if this was before he penned the Force theme; and he seems to have known of Wagner even prior to this event.

 

He traced that back to his time in Hamburg, which must have been around 1968 when he recorded Heidi there. Long before the force theme.

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Oh that's right, he did say it was in Hamburg!

 

Going to see the Ring without a grasp of German, though... Ooofff... one can see how Williams became frustrated with it.

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