Remco 685 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, Fabulin said: Check their ages. It might be a conflict of generations, as witnessed in the erosion of Alex Ross' confidence of Herrmann's superiority that took place between the 1990s and 2020s. Thinking of it, you're very right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,282 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Remco said: I have a suspicion that they see him as somehow less artistic and more a business man type of composer but I think that's very naive. I remember, a similar accusation was made by the so called "intellectual" critics to Alfred Hitchcock. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,613 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Outside of when I am complaining, I rarely complain, but could we please fix the thread title--it hurts my brain. Bayesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Remco said: I wonder what's with the more 'intellectual' film score enthusiasts that they will often leave out Williams in favor of Herrmann, Morricone, etc. ? I have a suspicion that they see him as somehow less artistic and more a business man type of composer but I think that's very naive. 3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: They're probably feeling insecure about their own taste. I agree with Jurassic Shark. They're just insecure about being seen as having middlebrow taste or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,235 Posted October 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Tom said: Outside of when I am complaining, I rarely complain, but could we please fix the thread title--it hurts my brain. John Williams are a pretty cool guy, he's writes songs and doesn't afraid of anything Bayesian, Omen II, eitam and 4 others 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Tom said: Outside of when I am complaining, I rarely complain, but could we please fix the thread title--it hurts my brain. Jon William he very good. Rite for the star war. I like he song. They happy. Martinland and Tom 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: I agree with Jurassic Shark. I like the sound of that. It would make a great catchphrase! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Disco Stu said: I agree with Jurassic Shark. Really!? 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: I like the sound of that. It would make a great catchphrase! No. Just...no. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,423 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Or maybe great T-Shirt or the title of the fourth Jurassic world if a fourth there must be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 On 28/10/2021 at 7:32 AM, Tom said: Outside of when I am complaining, I rarely complain, but could we please fix the thread title--it hurts my brain. Does Tom is dislikes the thread title? Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sandor 796 Posted October 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 30, 2021 I’ve seen just about enough posts in my 22 year history on this board that try to theoretically or even scientifically prove that John Williams -or someone else- is ‘the greatest film music composer of all time’, but that is never going to work. There is no objective method to determine ‘the greatest color’, ‘the greatest country’, ’the greatest football player’ and so on, and the same applies for ‘the greatest film composer of all time.’ Personal taste, viewpoint and criteria take such a crucial part in answering these questions and far outweigh pure logic. That's why my taking on the matter started with: 'I think history will remember John Williams as the greatest film music composer of all time’, which is fundamentally different than saying he actually is the greatest. It is my belief that due to Williams’ string of instantly recognisable themes that have become part of our cultural heritage -just like the films for which they were written-, Williams is the film composer who will remain relevant for a long time, simply because his themes for Star Wars, Jaws, Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, etc. will be around for awhile. When asking a random person on the street who the greatest classical composer of all time is, don’t be surprised if they go with either Mozart, Bach or Beethoven. For many reasons, these names are passed on from generation to generation, as well as their most famous pieces. Is Mozart, Beethoven or Bach ‘the greatest’? There are quite a few viewpoints from which such a notion can be defended, but is it logic? No. The same goes for popular music. One could argue that The Beatles, Elvis or Michael Jackson could hold on to a title which says ‘the greatest’, but if anyone is opting for Imagine Dragons, that person is in essence not wrong, since it is not science we’re dealing with. What is less likely though, is that Imagine Dragons or Maroon 5 will go down in history as ‘the greatest band of all time’. Because history is determined by a larger, collective viewpoint. It transcends generations and takes into account factors as cultural impact, popularity, critical acclaim, influence, etc. The Beatles still enjoy universal praise based on various factors and it wouldn’t raise a lot of eyebrows if one were to label them ‘the greatest band of all time’. John Williams is holding extremely strong cards in his hand and these are the aforementioned batch of perfectly constructed famous and iconic themes which -through their respected films and franchises- get discovered again and again by newer generations. It’s the asset that will keep him in the common man’s eyesight, long after many other composers will be forgotten and it is quite likely that in time he will be regarded as ‘the greatest film music composer of all time.' MaxTheHouseelf, Datameister, SteveMc and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Logically, Beethoven is the greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 796 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Logically, Beethoven is the greatest. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,235 Posted October 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 30, 2021 Another thing you mentioned in your other post that I find appropriate and sort of puts John Williams and his scores in a rather sweet category of iconic artists and artistic works is how his music resonates with children. The kinds of things kids are drawn toward can often be multi-faceted and not all of it is gonna be exactly "good art," but there is always something a little extra special to me about something I might have memories hearing, enjoying, or even simply noticing as a kid and then later in life appreciate how it "holds up" through strength of craftsmanship. I think this sort of criteria is a little different to judging something as the greatest of all-time, but somehow it makes sense to me to associate John Williams and his most popular films and scores with the likes of The Beatles, Walt Disney, The Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, Tom Sawyer, The Nutcracker, Peter and the Wolf...other things kids may not LOVE but are certainly familiar with and can recognize and comprehend on a basic level like the Mona Lisa, Starry Night, The Last Supper, even some Shakespeare like Romeo & Juliet. I guess in this way, I'm less concerned with how highly Williams is judged as the greatest, because some of the things I mentioned aren't exactly considered that, but simply that he endures as a foundational part of Western culture, that his music doesn't really feel like something that needs to be "discovered" but rather something that is always there, always acknowledged, always enjoyed in anyone's living memory and then at a certain point, those people grow up and think "Oh right, THAT'S why I kept hearing this everywhere" and understand its artistry. I think that's one cycle that helps elevate something above the rest of the forgotten crap we all gobble up as children. There's sort of this blending of nostalgic familiarity and critical thinking that goes on when I look at some of these "Great" works, where I can't remember NOT being aware of them going all the way back to childhood, but now can see why they're "Great" for myself. My hope for John Williams's legacy is simply that it endures. I don't care if everyone thinks he's The Greatest. I don't care if everybody knows his obscurities. I just want him to keep getting the listens on Spotify and YouTube, I want his franchise themes to keep getting recycled and remixed even if they get it wrong, I want his music played in theme parks and awards shows and commercials and all kinds of kitsch forever, I want normies calling him our Mozart without having any idea why they're saying that, and I want him to have a place of honor in the big mural of cultural history. This stuff lately with Vienna and Berlin feels pretty significant. I look at the respect he commands with our younger leading conductors and performers, the passion they have to want to perform his music, the smiles on their faces when the most familiar moments in his pieces arrive. I look at the Concertgebouw programming the Star Wars Main Title, Princess Leia's Theme, and Adventures on Earth and feeling like it's representative of an overall sense that John Williams will be integrated into musical tradition, education, appreciation going forward and it's like, god! That is one hard-won victory right there. It's so exciting. MaxTheHouseelf, SteveMc, Remco and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 796 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 36 minutes ago, mrbellamy said: Another thing you mentioned in your other post that I find appropriate and sort of puts John Williams and his scores in a rather sweet category of iconic artists and artistic works is how his music resonates with children. The kinds of things kids are drawn toward can often be multi-faceted and not all of it is gonna be exactly "good art," but there is always something a little extra special to me about something I might have memories hearing, enjoying, or even simply noticing as a kid and then later in life appreciate how it "holds up" through strength of craftsmanship. I think this sort of criteria is a little different to judging something as the greatest of all-time, but somehow it makes sense to me to associate John Williams and his most popular films and scores with the likes of The Beatles, Walt Disney, The Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, Tom Sawyer, The Nutcracker, Peter and the Wolf...other things kids may not LOVE but are certainly familiar with and can recognize and comprehend on a basic level like the Mona Lisa, Starry Night, The Last Supper, even some Shakespeare like Romeo & Juliet. I guess in this way, I'm less concerned with how highly Williams is judged as the greatest, because some of the things I mentioned aren't exactly considered that, but simply that he endures as a foundational part of Western culture, that his music doesn't really feel like something that needs to be "discovered" but rather something that is always there, always acknowledged, always enjoyed in anyone's living memory and then at a certain point, those people grow up and think "Oh right, THAT'S why I kept hearing this everywhere" and understand its artistry. I think that's one cycle that helps elevate something above the rest of the forgotten crap we all gobble up as children. There's sort of this blending of nostalgic familiarity and critical thinking that goes on when I look at some of these "Great" works, where I can't remember NOT being aware of them going all the way back to childhood, but now can see why they're "Great" for myself. My hope for John Williams's legacy is simply that it endures. I don't care if everyone thinks he's The Greatest. I don't care if everybody knows his obscurities. I just want him to keep getting the listens on Spotify and YouTube, I want his franchise themes to keep getting recycled and remixed even if they get it wrong, I want his music played in theme parks and awards shows and commercials and all kinds of kitsch forever, I want normies calling him our Mozart without having any idea why they're saying that, and I want him to have a place of honor in the big mural of cultural history. This stuff lately with Vienna and Berlin feels pretty significant. I look at the respect he commands with our younger leading conductors and performers, the passion they have to want to perform his music, the smiles on their faces when the most familiar moments in his pieces arrive. I look at the Concertgebouw programming the Star Wars Main Title, Princess Leia's Theme, and Adventures on Earth and feeling like it's representative of an overall sense that John Williams will be integrated into musical tradition, education, appreciation going forward and it's like, god! That is one hard-won victory right there. It's so exciting. I totally agree and thanks for this beautiful expansion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 On 28/10/2021 at 2:32 PM, Tom said: Outside of when I am complaining, I rarely complain, but could we please fix the thread title--it hurts my brain. He, he. It reminds me of that old videogame "meme" from a few years back - "All your base are belong to us" or whatever it was. But yes, removing 'does' and putting 'is' in front would alleviate my brain too. As for the topic at hand: Yes, I consider Williams the best film composer who ever lived, for many different reasons. But 'best' is a very vague term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hristo 12 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Yes, I also consider him the best composer(also the best conductor, because he has great moving and facial expressions) who ever lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 'Best composer' and 'best conductor' is too far for me. But 'best film composer', sure. But again, one would probably need more parameters that moved 'best' away from being just 'favourite'. Hristo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 He indeed has the best facial expressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 On 30/10/2021 at 3:35 AM, Jurassic Shark said: Logically, Beethoven is the greatest. Mozart > Beethoven > Bach: in that order. The Holy Trinity of classical composers. On 30/10/2021 at 3:33 AM, Sandor said: Imagine Dragons Who? On 30/10/2021 at 3:33 AM, Sandor said: Maroon 5 Who? Sandor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Moroon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hristo 12 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 16 hours ago, Thor said: 'Best composer' and 'best conductor' is too far for me. But 'best film composer', sure. But again, one would probably need more parameters that moved 'best' away from being just 'favourite'. Yes, better said, I didn't clarify correctly. Favourite indeed for both film composing and conducting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 @mxsch Dude, why did you correct the thread title?! Come on, man; that title was cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,890 Posted November 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 1, 2021 John Williams is the greatest human being ever. Period. That's a scientific fact. Bayesian, Positivatee and Raiders of the SoundtrArk 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Most successful: yes Best: no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, publicist said: Most successful: yes @Lord Zimmer sends his regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Adjusted for inflation is the keyword here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 But that's three words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Shut the fuck up, Donnie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 It's actually Donny, not Donnie. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,282 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 I think, you can argue if John Williams is the best film music composer. Still he is apparently the best when it comes to inspiring youngsters who grew up with film music to also sneak into classical music. He inspires people to study plaing instruments and become serious orchestra musicians and to listen to his music in concert halls without the movies. All that does not really belong to the skill set of a film music composer. Still it makes him very special as an artist. I would say, he really plays a unique role when it comes to the bridge between film and so called serious orchestra music. At least for my generation. mrbellamy and publicist 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: @Lord Zimmer sends his regards. Yeah, well, "lord" Zimmer can fuck off, can't he. 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: It's actually Donny, not Donnie. Eejit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 The old 'my composer is more successful than yours' spiel is as old as the film music messageboards and certainly psychologically revealing, how many guys badly need such legitimization of their own taste. It's a flip of the coin of the proven fact that most can't admit they like crap. Richard Penna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 I admit @Lord Zimmer is crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Score 770 Posted November 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 1, 2021 The best film music composers are John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Jerry Goldsmith and Bernard Herrmann, in no particular order. Each of them wrote a lot of great music, and each of them outdid the others in some particular styles. Many other composers wrote beautiful scores, but those 4 stand out for the quality and quantity of their output. Fabulin, Remco, Hristo and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,620 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 I'd find threads like this more entertaining (and actually helpful) if they showed examples from all composers of particular instances where they absolutely knocked it out of the park. Many would be Williams' best moments, and some would be other composers on top form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,423 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 I find there is a lot of reaction for a just rhetorical question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 I don't understand why my "popular" post on the previous page have only 5 likes. I gave all I was able to give, excuse my idiosyncratic english... but com'on a little much enthusiasm would be appreciated. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Well, Bes, your post got five likes, then it was quoted, and that got a like, so you could argue that you got six likes. Then your next post got six reactions, as well, so what's the what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 42 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said: Well, Bes, your post got five likes, then it was quoted, and that got a like, so you could argue that you got six likes. Then your next post got six reactions, as well, so what's the what? I just can't get enough! I just can't get enough I just can't get enough I just can't get enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Score said: The best film music composers are John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Jerry Goldsmith and Bernard Herrmann, in no particular order. Each of them wrote a lot of great music, and each of them outdid the others in some particular styles. Many other composers wrote beautiful scores, but those 4 stand out for the quality and quantity of their output. those are the 4 names I would have taken. I will throw in North and Steiner. There is one mark against Williams. Only one. innovation. Williams is the perhaps the most exemplary film composer in the traditional symphonic romantic orchestral realm. But it can be argued he doesn’t have many scores that break the mold. hermman has several. Scores like Psycho and main titles like North by Northwest are some of the most originally things ever done in the movies aurally. Bespin and Bayesian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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