Explain problems with La-La Land Hook reissue + Shawn Murphy discussion

[mxsch 105]

I'm pretty much new to this expanded release and I know that it's reputation here and in Filmtracks review is kinda bad.

What is exactly wrong with it?

How they even f-ed it up if JW was involved and this is La-La Land and they are have a very little list of fails, to my knowledge

And I also remember some criticisms of Murphy here, what's wrong with him?

For me he is a guarantee of superb recording and mixing quality.

Hook is 30 years old score now and it sounds insanely well, and how he mixed Prequels, for example, just blows my mind. LSO and Abbey Road rules, he rules too.

[Jay 30937]

Just now, mxsch said:

What is exactly wrong with it?

 

On 19/08/2021 at 11:15 AM, Jay said:

 

The following music can be heard in the film, yet is not on the LLL, the OST album, or any leak/boot (times taken from Amazon Prime display):

1. 0:00:48-0:01:50 = the unreleased portion of the Mike Lang piano solo that underscores the Peter Pan play {1M2?}
2. 0:08:10-0:09:15 = "God Rest You Merry, Gentlemen" heard sung by carolers outside Granny Wendy's house, not written by Williams but recorded by him for the movie
3. 0:38:35-0:39:18 = three different vocal overlays ("Hook! Hook!", "Hook, Hook, Hook Hook!" and "Hook, Hook, Show Us The Hook! Hook, Hook, Give Us The Hook!" mixed on top of 5M5 Show Us The Hook {one of the overlays turned up on the leak, but I don't know if it is a film take or an unused take}
4. 0:51:40-0:51:42 = a vocal overlay mixed on top of 7M2 To Neverland
5. 0:56:26-0:56:57 = a drum insert (or alternate take?) for the basketball scene during 7M5 The Lost Boys Ballet
6. 1:06:06-1:08:16 = "Pick 'Em Up", a song by Williams with lyrics by Leslie Bricusse
7. 1:16:33-1:17:14 = 9M4 Insert (the film version of the Neverfeast insert; the old boots had a slightly different insert)
8. 1:26:25-1:27:58 & 1:28:15-1:28:52 = "Take Me Out To The Ballgame", not written by Williams but recorded by him for the movie {the leak has some kind of partial take of just the backing part, without the lead}
9. 1:47:57-1:48:15 = 13M2 Insert Bar 37 (the insert for the moment Peter shows up)
10. 1:50:24-1:50:29 = 13M3 Insert (the insert for the moment The Lost Boys show up)
11. And in a general sense, all the correct film take portions for many cues in the film where the boot/leak/LLL presented unused take portions instead

The following music turned up in leaks/boots, but is not in the film, or on the LLL CD, or on the OST album:

1. A take of the celeste solo in 4M4 The Arrival Of Tink played at a higher octave (making it sound more ethereal than the film/album/LLL version)
2. A take of 5M6/6M1 Hook's Entrance that has the fanfare (heard on the LLL take) taceted out (the film uses no music for this bit)
3. The full ending of 7M4 Enter Rufio, which is missing on the LLL for some reason
4. The full ending of 9M3 The Banquet, which is faded down early on both the OST and the LLL
5. A super important portion of 15M2 The End of Hook that Spielberg dialed out of the final film (the climax of the score!)
6. Tiny portions of some of the reel 14 and 15 cues that were edited down in the final film and only presented on the LLL from the film's music stem
7. And in a general sense, a bunch of alternate take portions, though there's of course no need to an official album to include any of these

The following music was edited down in the only version released, meaning the full unedited cue is unreleased

1. Potentially more of the Peter Pan play music (1M2?), if it was edited down for the film (with no sheet music, we don't know if it was or not)
2. 1M4 Yuppie Sounds ("Banning Back Home" on the OST album) - the sheet music reveals where the cuts are and how much is missing
3. Potentially more of 1M4 Yuppie Sounds (Revised Version) ("Banning Back Home (Film Version)"), if it was edited down for the film (with no sheet music, we don't know if it was or not)

The following music was on the OST album, but was not included on the LLL album

1. The original ending of 4M5/5M1 I Don't Believe In Fairies (in the track "The Arrival of Tink and the Flight To Neverland"), which was replaced in the film & LLL with a New Ending
2. The full ending of 7M3 Lost Boys Appear (in the track "From Mermaids to Lost Boys"), which was omitted from the LLL track for some reason
3. The actual film version of 7M6/8M1 The Face Of Pan (in the track "You Are The Pan"), which does not use choir (the LLL release included an unused version with choir instead)

The following material can be seen in sheet music leaks, and was most likely not recorded, but you never know!

1. The original version of 5M5 Show Us The Hook, which used the Low Below theme throughout instead of switching to the Stick With Me theme
2. The original version of 13M2 To War!!, which has a section replaced by Alternate Insert 37-39 (which is different than the Insert Bar 37 that replaced it in the final film)
3. The original version of 15M2 The End of Hook, which had a section replaced by 15M2 Insert Bar 28
4. The original version of 15M4 The Next Morning, which had a section replaced by 15M4 Insert

The following additional songs were mentioned by Dan Schweiger in the LLL liner notes

1. Believe (potentially never recorded or filmed)
2. Childhood (probably recorded as the lyrics turned up in a lyric book, unknown if filmed or not)
3. Low Below (recorded and filmed - pictures here and video footage w/ audio here)
4. Stick With Me (potentially never recorded or filmed)

 

 

And that's not even considering the proper separation of cues that are still overlapped on the LLL, proper sourcing of music that was pulled from the film's music stem on the LLL, properly presenting the trailer cue ("Prologue") at the right speed...

[Jay 30937]

On 14/11/2021 at 4:29 PM, mxsch said:

How theY even f-ed it up if JW was involved and this is La-La Land which misses one in million time (imo)?

 

JW isn't really all that "involved" with scores pulled from his back catalog.  He is very involved with the OST albums that come out at the time of the film's release, and was more involved with the major label expansions of the late 90s, such as deciding on presenting some Jaws tracks in a different order in the premiere release of the film recording on Decca.  But for most of the specialty label albums of his back catalog, Mike Matessino makes all the decisions of how to present the music himself, then presents his finished album to JW who will either say it's fine as it is, or ask for some minor changes.  For example, he originally had HP1's third disc contain the version of "Harry's Wondrous World" recorded at the HP1 sessions, but JW asked for the longer concert ending to be put there instead, so Mike put the track from the HP2 OST on there for the final product.  Minor things like that is all JW really ever asks for with these things (though we recently learned of the biggest change yet I think, when LLL accidentally shipped out a few hundred copies of Mike's original AI Artificial Intelligence master, which featured 3 extra tracks that didn't make it to the final release, presumably because JW asked for them to be removed).

The 2012 Hook expansion was not handled by Mike Matessino.  It was handled by a guy named Didier Deutsch, who isn't exactly anywhere near the level of a Mike Matessino, Neil Bulk, Lukas Kendall, etc type.  Those guys make sure to have everything recorded before assembling a new album and then going from there.  Deutsch used what Sony Music had on hand, and didn't get anything from Sony Pictures other than the final film's music stem... and then didn't even grab everything from that that wasn't in the main source, as you can see above.  So basically you can't really blame JW, or the LLL guys, for how that 2012 album turned out; LLL was stuck releasing what Deutsch's team put together... and that was that.

 

Mike Matessino has said he wants to release a definitive edition of every score JW recorded if he can, so it's a given that one day we'll get a Matessino edition of this score, but until then, all we can do is wait!

[crumbs 12591]

50 minutes ago, Jay said:

For example, he originally had HP1's third disc contain the version of "Harry's Wondrous World" recorded at the HP1 sessions, but JW asked for the longer concert ending to be put there instead, so Mike put the track from the HP2 OST on there for the final product. 

 

If I understand correctly, the final product has the HP1 recording of Harry's Wondrous World at track 20 on disc 2, Harry's Wondrous World (Extended Version), because that piece was written as the end credits suite.

 

But if this was originally on disc 3 (until JW asked for the HP2 recording instead), does that mean disc 2 originally went from 2-19 Leaving Hogwarts to 2-21 Hedwig's Theme ?

[Jay 30937]

HWW is both the end credits of the film and a movement in the Children's Suite.  But the published version of the Suite has the different ending, which JW wrote during HP1 but never recorded until HP2.  Originally discs 2 and 3 both had the same HP1 recording, but then JW asked if the Disc 3 version could have the concert ending, which was luckily recorded at the HP2 sessions, so Mike could easily swap in the HP2 track instead of the HP1 track.

 

The HP2 track is actually the HP1 recording anyway, up until the new ending.  They did lay down some takes of the entire track at the HP2 sessions, but in the end didn't use any of it, and instead went with the HP1 recording for the film and the OST album, crossfaded into the HP2 recording of the new ending.

 

The HP1 recording is marked as "extended" on disc 2, because JW edited out a portion of it for the original HP1 score album.  That missing piece turned up on the HP2 OST already, ahead of the LLL expansion of 1.

[crumbs 12591]

Makes perfect sense now, thanks!

 

7 hours ago, mxsch said:

And I also remember some criticisms of Murphy here, what's wrong with him?

For me he is a guarantee of superb recording and mixing quality.

 

Yes, overall he's an excellent recordist with many more hits than misses. Some scores sound just okay, is all.

 

My personal favourite recording of his is The Lost World. Least favourite Artificial Intelligence (which is quite muddy and indistinct to my ears). Attack of the Clones also has persistent hiss throughout, not sure what technical issue happened there (hopefully it can be fixed in a future expansion).

 

Another benefit of experienced album producers like Mike Matessino is they're able to present Murphy's recordings in their best light. There's often a marked improvement between OST and expanded presentations, with improved clarity and acoustics. The aforementioned TLW sounds miles better on the LLL presentation than its OST. Minority Report had a similarly revelatory sound upgrade after Mike re-assembled that score using modern, high-resolution audio transfers of the analogue scoring elements.

 

You've probably also seen some criticism over Disney's 2018 Star Wars OST reissues, which Shawn Murphy oversaw. That's another topic entirely but those releases are riddled with problems and needed an experienced album producer to supervise their assembly.

[Jurassic Shark 9310]

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

The aforementioned TLW sounds miles better on the LLL presentation than its OST.

 

You're just saying that because you missed out on the 3D dinorama of the OST. 

[crumbs 12591]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

You're just saying that because you missed out on the 3D dinorama of the OST. 

 

I have both the TLW OST and that dinorama!

[Arpy 4072]

There's a lot of air in Prisoner of Azkaban, especially during the horn parts. 

[Marian Schedenig 6214]

POA was Murphy's return to form after years of mostly seriously sub-par Williams recordings. He seemed to do better for other composers (e.g. Horner), although even there his trademark heavy bass often went overboard and drowned out everything else.

[Jurassic Shark 9310]

It's heavy, man.