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Question about thematic connections in TROS


mxsch
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Why the heck Yoda's and Luke and Leia themes are detached from the characters in the track Reunion?

Since when Yoda's theme means victory and Luke and Leia theme now belongs to other characters, this is because that girl can be daughter of Lando?

Makes no sense and this is the most head-scratching moment of TROS for me in terms of the score.

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20 minutes ago, mxsch said:

Since when Yoda's theme means victory

 

well it's not like this is unprecedented.  His theme is present during Lando, Leia and company escaping Bespin.

 

 

now obviously i think it's a reference to Luke's presence on Bespin and his training....but Yoda kinda hinted he was gonna fail.  So do we signify Yoda's theme here with 'giving it a valiant effort, but come up short'....even though Yoda has already said 'there is no try'.....so in that sense, conceptually, does it make sense?  i'm not sure I care, cause it simply works.  And I don't think it always has to be dissected like that, even though it's fun to.

 

I think JW just likes to use these themes in different ways at times, and I'm okay with it.  We get brilliant statements of said themes.

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2 minutes ago, Holko said:

Whoops, didn't mean to imply that.

 

nah i was joking!

 

i honestly couldn't for the life of me point out what's wrong with it lol

 

it just sounds awesome to me.

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1 hour ago, mxsch said:

Why the heck Yoda's and Luke and Leia themes are detached from the characters in the track Reunion?

 

Because it just sounded right? Seems pretty straightforward to me. Williams had never shied away from using his themes purely for affect.

 

I mean - and not that this is a justification for this practice, per se - but what is the Tarnhelm theme doing there when Waltraute tells Brunhilde that Wotan's Spear is in pieces? It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Tarnhelm. And we keep on hearing Tarnhelm-y music throughout this passage, like here where the Tarnhelm chords "poison" the Valhalla theme for no particular reason, and later when Alberich recalls the same scenario to Hagen.

 

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

His theme is present during Lando, Leia and company escaping Bespin.

 

That's kinda the same situation, except that the thought process there seems to me as "Well, I have all of these themes; naturally I want them all to play a part in the climax of the piece..." Its a symphonic mode of thinking, in a way.

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If you want to ruin it for yourself, pay close attention to them, try to keep repeating that initial pattern in your head: the snares in the right and whatever in the left channel are already late to the beats during the initial statement and even miss bars, but then in the reprise from 4:09 to 4:19 they are completely just completely lost and messed up.

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28 minutes ago, Holko said:

If you want to ruin it for yourself, pay close attention to them, try to keep repeating that initial pattern in your head: the snares in the right and whatever in the left channel are already late to the beats during the initial statement and even miss bars, but then in the reprise from 4:09 to 4:19 they are completely just completely lost and messed up.

 

Yeah it's pretty bad - but most of all a fuck-up of the editor. 

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2 hours ago, Bellosh said:

 

well it's not like this is unprecedented.  His theme is present during Lando, Leia and company escaping Bespin.

 

 

now obviously i think it's a reference to Luke's presence on Bespin and his training....but Yoda kinda hinted he was gonna fail.  So do we signify Yoda's theme here with 'giving it a valiant effort, but come up short'....even though Yoda has already said 'there is no try'.....so in that sense, conceptually, does it make sense?  i'm not sure I care, cause it simply works.  And I don't think it always has to be dissected like that, even though it's fun to.

 

I think JW just likes to use these themes in different ways at times, and I'm okay with it.  We get brilliant statements of said themes.

You are right about connection to Luke. But TROS still makes no sense. Reprise of the moment when Luke is lifting X-Wing for Rey is absolutely understandable, but not this one in finale.

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I mean, that quote of Yoda's theme in Empire is ok because the theme is actually from Empire. When these themes appear out of nowhere in other movies like Luke and Leia in the scene with Lando and his "daughter" it seems like a leftover from the temp tracks <insert here the respecive theme from this film>. But there is no quiet melodic emotional theme like Yoda, Luke and Leia or Han Solo and the Princess or Princess Leia's Theme or the Force Theme. So, he used the old ones whenever some emotional music was required.

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2 hours ago, Bellosh said:

I think JW just likes to use these themes in different ways at times, and I'm okay with it.  We get brilliant statements of said themes.

 

I don't see this yet mentioned, but I'm sure everybody is thinking of the desperate statement of Leia's theme when Vader strikes down Obi-Wan.

 

I have convinced myself that I'm "okay with it" when JW does it, but there are a few moments in TROS that give me pause. Things like the quiet, high-strings Vader theme when Rey enters the old Death Star (lifted from the moment of Vader's death) or the reprise of lifting the X-wing (Yoda:Dagobah::Luke:Ahch-to) that make me feel like they tried to mash the nostalgia button a bit too hard...

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I've said this before on here but regardless of whether or not it is intentional or even correct, the off percussion in that final statement of The Imperial March sounds unhinged and I like it. My biggest problem with TROS OST is the straight reprise of TFA's lead-in to the end credits. That hurts me to hear it every time.

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46 minutes ago, j39m said:

 

I don't see this yet mentioned, but I'm sure everybody is thinking of the desperate statement of Leia's theme when Vader strikes down Obi-Wan.

 

I have convinced myself that I'm "okay with it" when JW does it, but there are a few moments in TROS that give me pause. Things like the quiet, high-strings Vader theme when Rey enters the old Death Star (lifted from the moment of Vader's death) or the reprise of lifting the X-wing (Yoda:Dagobah::Luke:Ahch-to) that make me feel like they tried to mash the nostalgia button a bit too hard...

Williams once explained that he used Leia's theme in the moment when Vader "kills" Obi-Wan because this theme was most dramatic of all in original SW.

P.S. That's what is said about this in the 97 SE RCA re-release:

Interestingly, Williams uses Princess Leia's theme at the moment Ben vanishes, deferring to the purely musical effectiveness of the sweeping melody over any apparent thematic relevance, although the theme does reinforce the connection between the Princess and the old Jedi suggested by her holographic message.

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1 hour ago, mxsch said:

Williams once explained that he used Leia's theme in the moment when Vader "kills" Obi-Wan because this theme was most dramatic of all in original SW.

P.S. That's what is said about this in the 97 SE RCA re-release:

Interestingly, Williams uses Princess Leia's theme at the moment Ben vanishes, deferring to the purely musical effectiveness of the sweeping melody over any apparent thematic relevance, although the theme does reinforce the connection between the Princess and the old Jedi suggested by her holographic message.

I think he could have written a dramatic cue with the force theme (obi wans theme)…but well im not musically trained so im not going to contradict the maestro ;) 

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I remember a rumor that the ghosts of Luke, Leia, and Yoda (and other Jedi) appear during the scene.  Perhaps that is what Williams was going for.  I doubt it, though, the explanation above that JJ just wanted the classic themes is likely the right one.  

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That's not a bad theory. I think I remember something similar.

 

They remade that movie so many times up until a few weeks before, you never know.

 

Hell, remember when they showed the first scene on Good Morning American and the music in THEY FLY NOW was totally different. 

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2 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Hell, remember when they showed the first scene on Good Morning American and the music in THEY FLY NOW was totally different. 

 

And like most things, the final cut was probably worse than where they started (especially in regards to the music editing).

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20 hours ago, Tom said:

I remember a rumor that the ghosts of Luke, Leia, and Yoda (and other Jedi) appear during the scene.  Perhaps that is what Williams was going for.  I doubt it, though, the explanation above that JJ just wanted the classic themes is likely the right one.


I think the later is probably right, especially since the documentary includes footage of this cue being recorded, and as Yoda’s theme is heard, Maz and Chewie appear on the monitor, same as in the finished film.

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2 hours ago, BrotherSound said:


I think the later is probably right, especially since the documentary includes footage of this cue being recorded, and as Yoda’s theme is heard, Maz and Chewie appear on the monitor, same as in the finished film.

 

Which one is that?

 

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53 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:


This one (The Maestro’s Finale), about 3 minutes in:

 

 

Watching that again, I see that John addresses the Pavlovian Dagobah reprise around 7:30. "It's an exception," he says, also taking care to mention that JJ actually questioned if it was appropriate. I can't stay mad when JW's doing the talking...

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I agree, but it seems a big fragmented, as if he was taking what he knew was great from what he already wrote and dropped it into a revised context.  That all being said, the biggest musical crime of the SW saga is on JJ--leaving the Speeder Chase 95% unused.  Okay, well, all the issues are on JJ, as the man doesn't seem to have a clear idea of what his films are about when he begins shooting--like a weird second-rate clone of prequel-era Lucas.  Hey, maybe we should rename the sequel trilogy Attack of the (2nd rate) Clone. 

 

I think I need sleep.  

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2 hours ago, Tom said:

I think Williams poured his heart into the first version of the movie he watched.  As he scored the 3rd or 4th version, he went last third of AOTC on it.  

 

Yeah, I think you can tell he cut corners in a few places, notably the end credits suite (which is mostly just a copy paste of previous scores). I guess he was more focused on finishing the score proper at that stage.

 

It is clear there was a heavy focus on new material and new themes in his earliest cues, before the revisions started...

 

I'd love to know where barely-reworked cues like the AOTC suspense motif on Kijimi fell within the scoring timeline. A change so subtle, you wonder why they bothered asking JW to re-record it (given the volume of music from previous scores they pasted elsewhere).

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Nope, according to the November spreadsheet (which has the same duration as the final cut), the music in that scene in TROS is 4M11 Poe and Girlfriend

 

It's audibly different to the AOTC version anyway. Different horn line and slightly slower tempo from memory. 

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