Spoiled by John Williams

[Fabulin 3,511]

In one of the Legacy of John Williams episodes it was said that Williams's music can have a spoiling effect on a listener:

if one wants to hear more music like that of JW, one has to give up on something:

either harmony has to get more conservative, or orchestration get less interesting, or the melodic line less captivating... or the music have less variety.

 

Do you feel this dilemma as well when searching for comparable music to listen to? 

 

I certainly do, and whenever I listen to recent film scores, or recent concert music, I feel like I have to give up on just about every item. In the best case the music is nice to listen to once, but it doesn't really make me wish to hear it again.

[Datameister 2,041]

I...agree, to a certain extent. There's a lot of music out there that I love about as much as JW's work, and I'm grateful that not all music sounds like his. Variety is, after all, the spice of life. But I've never found another composer who pushes the right buttons in my brain so consistently and so strongly and for so many decades.

[artguy360 1,843]

I agree in the sense that there is no other composer quite like John Williams or even another composer who I listen to when I want John-Williams-like music, there is only John Williams. Beyond even the fitting and memorable nature of his themes, JW has a musical voice that is quite specific. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

This is a dilemma easily remedied by listening to Williams' influences. Prokofiev, Haydn, Copland, Hermann, Steiner, Vaughn Williams, Tchaikovsky, etc. You might not find a lot of Williams in any one of them, but you can certainly find all of them in Williams. 

[Bespin 8,480]

Well, as a fan of JW, I must admit in some movies, in some scenes, his music is simply obscene.

 

That's porn, well in a musical context!

 

I love that a lot.

[Fabulin 3,511]

17 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

This is a dilemma easily remedied by listening to Williams' influences. Prokofiev, Haydn, Copland, Hermann, Steiner, Vaughn Williams, Tchaikovsky, etc. You might not find a lot of Williams in any one of them, but you can certainly find all of them in Williams. 

Yes, I can listen to Herrmann, Lutosławski, tonal Schoenberg, Bruckner, Wagner, and other composers... of the past, and some of their best works are quite satisfying. The sort of synthesis of some of their best qualities that Williams did, however, seems... sadly rather unique to him. I don't hear it often (rarely ever) with composers younger than Williams.

 

Exception: I've recently been to a premiere of a new staging of Verdi's Don Carlos, which included a rather Stravinskian prelude written by some contemporary composer. I really enjoyed it, and when I had the opportunity to hear that staging at a later point, I was more excited about the prelude than about any of Verdi's original music. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

56 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

Yes, I can listen to Herrmann, Lutosławski, tonal Schoenberg, Bruckner, Wagner, and other composers... of the past, and some of their best works are quite satisfying. The sort of synthesis of some of their best qualities that Williams did, however, seems... sadly rather unique to him. I don't hear it often (rarely ever) with composers younger than Williams.

 

Exception: I've recently been to a premiere of a new staging of Verdi's Don Carlos, which included a rather Stravinskian prelude written by some contemporary composer. I really enjoyed it, and when I had the opportunity to hear that staging at a later point, I was more excited about the prelude than about any of Verdi's original music. 

You’re right there - the synthesis of those composers is something truly unique to Williams, and as you indicated in your initial post there can be dissatisfaction in not quite finding all the different musical elements of them in as satisfying a package as what Williams offers. And quite rightly - there never will be again. Williams is of a time and a place that can never be replicated.
 

However I’m always comforted by the notion that there are composers out there right now who are actively trying to distill the techniques of a different set of masterful artists and will achieve their own alchemic style, even if it won’t be in the same way. I just hope I can find them in my lifetime, and have a similar emotional connection to their music. Hasn’t happened yet though, and maybe it will never happen for me. But it will for another generation, and as I said, that's comforting in a way.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

I always felt super guilty about feeling this way, but yeah. ESPECIALLY with the dreck that passes for film music today, there's only so much Williams to balance it out these days. 

[Thor 7,490]

I can enjoy a good Williams pastiche by the likes of Debney, McNeely, Verta or whoever, but I do not for one second feel that it's on the same level as the master. Williams is Williams. But then I don't go out actively to seek out more music like him just for the sake of it. I have no need to listen to the same exact music all the time, but rather enjoy the different takes on an idiom.

[GerateWohl 4,350]

Unfortunately, Williams' scores are often limited by critics to classical holywood sound. But in my oppinion managed to make that sound fit for modern cinema without losing the high standard of classical composition.

Unfortunately, that path has not really been followed on to the full possible extend.

Mainly probably because this is an effort, that you can easily save by zimmering your score together on the keyboard, because the only ones who care about that are we few fans. 

 

That is by the way the same development that pop music took since the 60s. Composition becomes less important. Sound is everything. Few exceptions. As always.

 

[Schilkeman 961]

When it comes to film music, yes. I've more or less given up on other film composers, with a few exceptions for the occasional Herrmann, Goldsmith, or Horner (early Horner) score. And even those leave me wanting. As was mentioned before, his music is a synthesis of craft. Now when it comes to orchestral music in general, I find myself more spoiled for choice than anything else.

[Andy 4,118]

There is no comparison.

[Poor_Man_S_HirschFeld 16]

I'm familiar with that comment made on the LegacyofJW podcast (hehehe).

Let me elaborate a bit on that.

Of course, to state that John Williams' music is of such caliber that no one else's can compare and therefore is not  enjoyable would be silly.

If anything, John Williams actually helped me appreciate music more, of any kind, by any artist.

If it's just a matter of taste, meaning JW's music has a particular, very specific flavour that I prefer above all others, and I cannot get the same kick from any other composer, well... that can be said of any composer or musician with a strong personal voice, be it Bach, Strvinsky, Danny Elfman or Paul Simon.

 

My point was rather that being exposed to Williams at a very young age and in the context of popular mainstram media, maybe instilled in me the expectation that any piece of popular entertainment would display the same lavel of sofistication.

Not that as a youngster I would have been able to articulate it, but it was almost like demanding of every major hollywood movie to have rich yet direct thematic material, detailed counterpoint, cristaline orchestrations and sofisticaded harmonies. To be fair, there have been plenty of scores by many other composers doing just that, but nonetheless we are talking of a very high bar, hence the idea of 'being spoiled'.

 

The only real instance of me getting 'spoiled' to the point I stopped enjoy other works in a field has been the tv show The Wire. To this day no matter how much I can appreiate a series, I stilll end up thinking "Well, it wasn't The Wire".

 

 

[Ian Stouffer 17]

I find it hard to enjoy the official scores for Harry Potters 4-8 because of how awesome the first 3 scores are. Similarly, Giacchino's Rogue One score was a huge letdown. Also, most modern film scores nowadays focus on using pre-existing pop music to set the mood, which ends up getting stale fast. Sympathy for the Devil and Don't Stop Me Now have appeared in more major films than the Ode to Joy, despite the Choral Symphony having been around for far longer.

[King Mark 3,631]

On 28/11/2021 at 12:21 AM, Datameister said:

I...agree, to a certain extent. There's a lot of music out there that I love about as much as JW's work, and I'm grateful that not all music sounds like his. Variety is, after all, the spice of life. But I've never found another composer who pushes the right buttons in my brain so consistently and so strongly and for so many decades.

[GerateWohl 4,350]

On 13/12/2021 at 4:00 PM, Ian Stouffer said:

I find it hard to enjoy the official scores for Harry Potters 4-8 because of how awesome the first 3 scores are. Similarly, Giacchino's Rogue One score was a huge letdown. Also, most modern film scores nowadays focus on using pre-existing pop music to set the mood, which ends up getting stale fast. Sympathy for the Devil and Don't Stop Me Now have appeared in more major films than the Ode to Joy, despite the Choral Symphony having been around for far longer.

I would say, the song I heard most in movies is "What a Wonderful World". Seems to appear in almost every fifth movie. 

Or maybe it is just because I preferably like watching movies about the end of the world, and for those the directors love to use that song in at least one scene.

[QuartalHarmony 542]

The question reminds me of an anecdote I once heard, which I'll summarise:

 

"A friend who really likes opera convinced me I should give it a try, so he lent me his discs of Cosi Fan Tutte, Don Giovanni and The Marriage of Figaro. I listened to them and liked them so I went back to my friend and said 'They were great, I really like opera, what should I listen to next?'. My friend looked a bit sheepish and said 'Well, you do realise you started with the best ones: it's all a bit downhill from here.'.

 

I could say the same thing about film music and JW.

 

Mark

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

19 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

"A friend who really likes opera convinced me I should give it a try, so he lent me his discs of Cosi Fan Tutte, Don Giovanni and The Marriage of Figaro. I listened to them and liked them so I went back to my friend and said 'They were great, I really like opera, what should I listen to next?'. My friend looked a bit sheepish and said 'Well, you do realise you started with the best ones: it's all a bit downhill from here.'.

 

HA! The best one is of course Die Zauberflöte.