SPOILER TALK: SPIDER-MAN: NO WAY HOME (2021)

[Giftheck 916]

Sandman finds out right at the end, after Venom is killed.

 

As for the others, it's not certain when they were taken. Ock's dialogue suggests he was taken right after he tried to throttle Spider-Man but before he overrode the arms' AI. It could of course be that he did survive somehow, but the AI affected his memory of the event. Electro was taken at the point he exploded. Goblin and Lizard are far more ambiguous - especially since Lizard never died in his film (unless you count being cured as 'being killed by Spider-Man')

[Alex 2,833]

The golden rule when questioning the plot of this movie:

 

 

[Giftheck 916]

For once, that's totally apt

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

It sucked

[TSMefford 1,509]

23 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

It sucked

 

I never thought about it that way before.

[Giftheck 916]

Marvel has officially given designations to the Raimi and Webb Spider-Men:

 

Raimi's Spider-Man is called Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man: https://www.marvel.com/characters/friendly-neighborhood-spider-man

 

Webb's Spider-Man gets the same designation as the film series he originates - The Amazing Spider-Man: https://www.marvel.com/characters/the-amazing-spider-man

[Brónach 1,301]

On 18/12/2021 at 6:06 PM, TSMefford said:

 

Yes. There have been leaks that ended up being real.

 

leaks in 8K!

13 hours ago, Alex said:

The golden rule when questioning the plot of this movie:

 

 

 

 

Yes but, it's this or picking on the bad greenscreen scenes or the Tobey introduction without being on the set or MJ being "supportive girlfriend" or May dying after abandoning her character for a while without working to earn the tears or the gags that don't land or the extremely boring new thematic work by Gia; so picking on the wizard plot is kinder..

 

People are being carried away by nostalgia and because the basic outline of the film kind of actually works but the execution is sometimes shoddy. Like I can see how this could be a cape movie I could actually love, with the downer ending and some of the gags and the Dafoe and such, but I'm not actually that much into it the way it is.

13 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

I mean Sandman being "cured" is moreso removing his ability so he can be a regular dude again when he goes home. 

They are taken from before they're about to die, with the exception of Sandman (it seems), but perhaps he was taken after seeing Peter Parker without his mask at the end of Spider-Man 3 (it's been awhile since I've seen the Raimi films so I honestly don't remember when he finds out that Spidey = Peter Parker). But the whole point is that the villains are brought in after the point they know that Spider-Man is Peter Parker, which is typically near the end of their time on screen.

 

It's not a different version where they survived. Andrew and Tobey are the same versions we saw originally, not different ones.

 

All that being said, no one is really supposed to think that much about it. It's a comic-book movie. 

 

I didn't think about it this way yesterday, but perhaps Doc Ock disappears after unsmaking Spidey, then the arms take control again (also some of the villains seem kinds confused, like they forgot what actually happened, maybe that helps the arms take control), and then stole a turtleneck because it's chilly or something. Like Osborn and his hoodie maybe. Sometimes you do something very simple and the nerds like me over think it. (the real explanation might involve vfx stuff)

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Honestly I struggled a bit with this one. I really wanted to like it, but like many others I'm becoming increasingly fatigued with the Marvel Factory Production Line and this did nothing to jolt me out of it, unlike WandaVision (Loki didn't do much for me, it had a lot of promise but just never reached its potential).

 

It was just quip after quip after quip, sandwiched between near-operatic moments of melodrama. When Maguire came through the portal I just felt nothing. Maybe it was the knowledge that he would definitely be in it, as it was the worst kept secret in Hollywood. But he was my Spider-Man, and Raimi's second film of the franchise remains the best of the whole genre, and I barely blinked when it happened. On one hand I might be getting too old for these movies, but on the other hand the thrilling Into the Spider-verse did everything that this film did but with some real style and panache, and I felt a bit of that childlike awe and wonder watching that one. The plastic and dull MCU aesthetic really pales in comparison.

 

Willem Dafoe stole the show, he was really great hamming it up as both sides of Osborne, and Alfred Molina was pretty fun as well. But the rest of the villains may has well have not been there. Cumberbatch snoozed through every line, and while I know Doctor Strange has always been a bit of a prick he was downright unpleasant in this film. For a movie that puts so much into the idea of responsibility it was baffling to see how much blame and guilt he put on Peter for a spell that he himself royally botched. The whole "look what you made me do" vibe was pretty tone-deaf in my opinion.

 

Garfield was surprisingly good in this. I didn't love the Judd Apatow-esque bantering scene between the three Peters, but the most affecting moments in the film were surprisingly Garfield's.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

They fucked Doc Ock

[Jay 37,249]

2 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

I didn't love the Judd Apatow-esque bantering scene between the three Peters,

 

Oh man, those types of scenes (any scene with 2-3 Spider-men talking) was the best stuff in the movie!  I thought it was all so effortlessly enjoyable

 

2 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

but the most affecting moments in the film were surprisingly Garfield's.

 

Easily, yea

 

That guy is great, made me want to watch more of his movies

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Oh man, those types of scenes (any scene with 2-3 Spider-men talking) was the best stuff in the movie!  I thought it was all so effortlessly enjoyable

Different strokes I guess. Part of the issue for me is that it’s becoming increasingly obvious where the seams of these films are showing, and nothing highlights it more than the jokes. The MCU famously brings in comedians to punch up the scripts with more jokes, and you can hear how the writing style drastically changes from scene to scene, or worse, right in the middle of a scene. It doesn’t feel organic to me.

[TSMefford 1,509]

To me the seams were always there from the beginning. Besides the obvious lower quality films present in the series, this is how Marvel has literally always been for me. It's pure entertainment. Don't think too much about it and there's no problems. I'm not a fanboy of them, as there are many I've only seen the one time, but they're fine. 

 

Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy this one as much. I honestly expected to feel more like you're describing, but it really did it for me in the theater. I don't know how I'll feel watching it on home video, but yeah.

[bored 303]

Can't relate at all. Personally my favorite Spider-Man movie since Spider-Man 2. I love that Tom Holland's performance actually felt like Peter Parker/Spider-Man instead of Iron Man's replacement (sorry Tom Holland being young does nothing for me enjoying him or not. I hated his Logan Paul-esque video sequence in the beginning of Homecoming, his stupid, unfunny quips, his worshipping of Iron Man, and half the time he just comes across as stupid, more so than either live-action Spider-Man). I love that great power and great responsibility is emphasized in this film again because that's always been the core of the best Spidey stories. 

 

I love the callbacks in the score and how many there were (though I do agree they're a bit more subdued than maybe they should be, but to be honest, my friends and I weren't convinced the score would have any previous references, so I'm just grateful for that). I love the references to other films, and while I do wish Tobey and Doc Ock interacted a bit more, I still loved their reunion regardless, as I've always adored how they handled their relationship. 

2 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

They fucked Doc Ock

 

Not sure how, the only time I thought they fucked with his character was when they laugh at his name even though the main character is named Peter Parker. Otherwise they pretty much wrote him exactly like how he appeared in Spider-Man 2. I guess you're referring to when his arms turn against him with Peter's nanotech, so yeah he's not intimidating in this movie, but considering it's more about his redemption I was ok with it. They more than made up with it in Dafoe's performance anyway. That entire first attack from the Goblin that results in May's death was beautifully done, aside from May thinking she can stand up to and survive a super strong man that her superhero son couldn't defeat. But I guess that's what you get when you ruin her character by turning her into a dumbass soccer mom. 

17 hours ago, Brónach said:

MJ being "supportive girlfriend" or May dying after abandoning her character for a while without working to earn the tears or the gags

 

Well considering I found MJ an annoyance at best and May utterly irresponsible and dull at worst I was more than ok with it. I actually was getting a bit torn up when she died because Holland's acting and May believing she was ok, and finally teaching Peter the motto sold it so well for me, especially since, as previously mentioned, I never liked her character before this. 

 

Yeah the plot was messy, but I don't go to these roller coaster non-movies for intricate plots. I go to them for compelling characters and arcs, and I thought this movie had that in spades. I cannot express enough how happy I am with the way they resolved Maguire and Garfield's respective stories, while also paying plenty of tribute and respect to their characters. Not to mention that the ending is the perfect way to end this story, with Peter after being handed everything when Iron Man came into his life, now realizing it's his responsibility to let it all go.

 

I take a lot of the same issues with some of the Marvel staples such as dumb, undercutting humor, and plot conveniences like Ned turning into Doctor Strange with only one dumb joke line to set it up, but at the end of the day, I came to this movie to see if they'd handle my favorite characters from the past with the respect they deserved, and see if they finally made Tom Holland's Peter Parker/Spider-Man into his own character. For the most part, they did both and then some, so I'm more than satisfied with it. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

8 minutes ago, superultramegaa said:

sure how, the only time I thought they fucked with his character was when they laugh at his name even though the main character is named Peter Parker. Otherwise they pretty much wrote him exactly like how he appeared in Spider-Man 2. I guess you're referring to when his arms turn against him with Peter's nanotech, so yeah he's not intimidating in this movie, but considering it's more about his redemption I was ok with it. They more than made up with it in Dafoe's performance anyway. That entire first attack from the Goblin that results in May's death was beautifully done, aside from May thinking she can stand up to and survive a super strong man that her superhero son couldn't defeat. But I guess that's what you get when you ruin her character by turning her into a dumbass soccer mom. 

They wrote him as a silly, grumpy and out of touch old man.  The Spider Man 2 Doc was so much more suave and slick.  

[Positivatee 327]

He had to be suave to steal the Baku babe from Captain Picard. 

 

Then he fucked up. 

[bored 303]

20 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

They wrote him as a silly, grumpy and out of touch old man.

 

Well yeah, he's a man being controlled by robotic arms from the year 2004, he's going to be confused and out of touch. I only thought he was silly and grumpy when the arms were controlling him, but even then, how else would you write him at that point? 

20 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

The Spider Man 2 Doc was so much more suave and slick.  

 

"Has anyone found a roll of $20 bills and a rubber band? Because we found the rubber band." 

In all seriousness I thought as a villain he was that when he initially fights Tom Holland, it's just that when the main character has the ability to control his arms, there's not much else you can do to make him threatening, suave, or slick at that point. 

[JNHFan2000 2,938]

I thought the moment that Doc Ock is in the prison and is getting questioned about Osborn a really good scene. Especially at the moment when he snaps and you just for a second see that the crazienis is in there. Loved that.

[Chen G. 3,940]

6 hours ago, TSMefford said:

It's pure entertainment.

 

Blast and bebother "entertainment"!

 

What happened to drama?!

[Jay 37,249]

Don't choose to watch an MCU film if you're looking for drama. Watch an MCU film for escapist entertainment. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

Its virtually the only game in town, by way of big spectacle movies, unfortunately.

[bored 303]

But what about Disney Star Wars movi - oh right... 

[Chen G. 3,940]

Those movies at least tried!

[Bilbo 3,709]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Don't choose to watch an MCU film if you're looking for drama. Watch an MCU film for escapist entertainment. 

Yeah, I watch them when I’m sick or just want popcorn. They’re not really movies. They’re a snack. And you can have a lot of fun with them if you just approach them that way. But some take themselves a bit too seriously which is why I generally don’t enjoy the ones that feature Captain America. Guy is a bore. But Guardians, Ant-Man, Ragnarock, Captain Marvel. I had a blast with those.
 

No Way Home was Spider-man Fan Service The Movie. And I loved it for that. I’m sure if I think about the plot for too long it will fall apart so I’m not going to do that. 
 

 

But I want more Andrew Garfield as Spidey as he’s always been my favourite of the three and looking around the internet it’s becoming increasingly more likely that I will get what I want at some point 😬

[TSMefford 1,509]

5 minutes ago, His Royal Noelness said:

But some take themselves a bit too seriously

 

Oh boy, you must REALLY hate the Snyder DC films.

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 hour ago, TSMefford said:

 

Oh boy, you must REALLY hate the Snyder DC films.

Yup! Don’t think you could pay me to watch one if I’m honest.

[Chen G. 3,940]

I hate those, too, but at least they try.

 

Marvel doesn't try. They don't have to try because they deliberately make a joke out of it: their movies are action-comedies.

 

Its a cheap "get-out-jail-free card", and I loathe it.

[Tallguy 3,359]

29 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I hate those, too, but at least they try.

 

Marvel doesn't try. They don't have to try because they deliberately make a joke out of it: their movies are action-comedies.

 

Its a cheap "get-out-jail-free card", and I loathe it.

 

None of these movies are Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf and we don't expect them to be. Star Wars, Marvel, Snyder, any flavor of Spider-Man. But to say that there is no emotional content is either unfair, or maybe it's a case of getting out what you bring in.

 

Too many people say "Marvel movies are the same formula over and over." To me that says they're either not actually watching them or they blank out at "Superhero film". Captain America movies are not the same as Iron Man movies and aren't the same as Guardians movies. Hell, Thor movies aren't like other Thor movies.

 

When Endgame came out there was a... meme isn't the right word. Thing? of looking at your Fitbit / Apple watch, whatever and lining it up to when you were watching Endgame. Sure enough, I could tell when all of the major emotional beats of the last act were.

 

While there are certainly parts of Marvel that rely on the jokes more than others, I think at the very least the MCU is good at what Nicholas Meyer called "tap dancing". Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back were good at it. The prequels were not. The sequels would be better at it if they didn't usually mess up the "plot". I love Man of Steel and the Snyder Cut Justice League but they do NOT tap dance.

 

Oh and the one Marvel movie that deliberately made a joke out itself was the one Thor movie that everyone loves. Ragnarok.

[Edmilson 7,367]

I only would've wanted more Andrew Garfield movies if Horner was still alive to score them. Please, enough of Zimmer-and-band dubstep crap.

[bored 303]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Marvel doesn't try. They don't have to try because they deliberately make a joke out of it: their movies are action-comedies.

 

90% of the time I agree with you. But there are movies like Iron Man 3, The Winter Soldier, and I believe No Way Home does this to an extent too, that does have darker and drama elements that aren't undercut by jokes, that develop the characters in an actual satisfying way.

 

I know Iron Man 3 gets a lot of shit for the joke villain twist with the Mandarin, but I always thought it worked because it supported one of the main themes of the movie (the theme of keeping up appearances and deceiving the public), while simultaneously getting a laugh. Not to mention there's plenty of dark, drama-filled moments in that movie, more so than the previous 2, such as Tony's panic attacks/PTSD, his house being destroyed, Pepper's torture, etc, so I thought the many jokes helped to balance the tone, and they almost never undercut it. 

 

No Way Home is very similar to that type of tone for me. There's very dark elements such as the entire apartment fight with the Goblin leading to May's death, the whole world's memory of Peter Parker being wiped out, the other Spider-Men's losses (especially Andrew Garfield's story), the possibility of leaving the supervillains to die, and the only time I remember any of these story elements being undercut with a joke, was when Tobey mentions Harry's death and Ned gets paranoid about it, which, while stupid, was very quick, and only mentioned twice. 

 

It just depends on the movie and the story the creators choose to tell. I agree that most of these Marvel movies don't have a good tonal balance, but I don't think that means all of them are the same, even if most of them feel that way. I also don't buy for a second that the creators of the new Star Wars trilogy tried. None of those films seemed the least bit inspired, or passionate.

[Chen G. 3,940]

31 minutes ago, superultramegaa said:

90% of the time I agree with you.

 

90% of the time is enough to establish a general trend: the general Marvel ouvre is one of action-comedy. An occasional entry of relative earnestness (and I would argue that we only percieve films like The Winter Soldier as fairly earnest because so much of what preceeded and followed them was so very insufferably frivolous) doesn't really change this trend.

 

I'm not saying every film shown in the multiplex needs to be a Saving Private Ryan, but is some earnestness really too much to ask for?

 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

Too many people say "Marvel movies are the same formula over and over."

 

I don't care about formulaicism: if you really boil things down, virtually all stories are formulaic.

 

My issue with Marvel is their insufferable lightheartedness. Like, what happened to movies having sad beats that were actually sad? Stakes that actually distressed the audience, such that when those stakes were overcome, the audience will have felt a real sense of release?

 

But no, its all about "having fun": its amusing; its cutsie, and those are NOT compliments.

[Bilbo 3,709]

49 minutes ago, superultramegaa said:

90% of the time I agree with you. But there are movies like Iron Man 3, The Winter Soldier, and I believe No Way Home does this to an extent too, that does have darker and drama elements that aren't undercut by jokes, that develop the characters in an actual satisfying way.

 

I know Iron Man 3 gets a lot of shit for the joke villain twist with the Mandarin, but I always thought it worked because it supported one of the main themes of the movie (the theme of keeping up appearances and deceiving the public), while simultaneously getting a laugh. Not to mention there's plenty of dark, drama-filled moments in that movie, more so than the previous 2, such as Tony's panic attacks/PTSD, his house being destroyed, Pepper's torture, etc, so I thought the many jokes helped to balance the tone, and they almost never undercut it. 

 

No Way Home is very similar to that type of tone for me. There's very dark elements such as the entire apartment fight with the Goblin leading to May's death, the whole world's memory of Peter Parker being wiped out, the other Spider-Men's losses (especially Andrew Garfield's story), the possibility of leaving the supervillains to die, and the only time I remember any of these story elements being undercut with a joke, was when Tobey mentions Harry's death and Ned gets paranoid about it, which, while stupid, was very quick, and only mentioned twice. 

 

It just depends on the movie and the story the creators choose to tell. I agree that most of these Marvel movies don't have a good tonal balance, but I don't think that means all of them are the same, even if most of them feel that way. I also don't buy for a second that the creators of the new Star Wars trilogy tried. None of those films seemed the least bit inspired, or passionate.

The reaction to Iron Man 3 is what initially started to sour me on the MCU. It tried to do something different but the internet couldn’t handle it. I thought the twist was great. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

18 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

Can't relate at all. Personally my favorite Spider-Man movie since Spider-Man 2. I love that Tom Holland's performance actually felt like Peter Parker/Spider-Man instead of Iron Man's replacement (sorry Tom Holland being young does nothing for me enjoying him or not.

 

18 hours ago, TSMefford said:

Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy this one as much. I honestly expected to feel more like you're describing, but it really did it for me in the theater. I don't know how I'll feel watching it on home video, but yeah.

 

I'm genuinely glad people did connect with it, because I probably would've a few years ago, and I really wanted to!

 

I was in a bristly mood on the day I went, that probably didn't help. And I went solo because my partner hates everything MCU haha. Most of my friends these days are more into arty films, and I like them too, but I do still value popcorn entertainment. These are the kinds of films best watched with friends and with your brain firmly switched off.

[Jay 37,249]

What made Peter still able to control his physical body after Strange zapped him out of it?  The way they had Strange say "you shouldn't be able to do that" made me think it was setting up something that'd be paid off later, but then it wasn't

[Giftheck 916]

Spider-Sense. I guess it still works without the soul in the body?

[Alex 2,833]

Still trying to wrap my head around the multiverse (I’m wasting my time, I know).

 

If Tobey Maguire Spider-Man has been transported to the MCU later in his timeline (years after Spider-Man 3), has he not already witnessed the death of Doc Ock and Norman Osborn? And if Norman Osborn was zapped out of his timeline, would that not affect the existence of Doc Ock, who’s fusion programme was funded by Oscorp?

 

Again, I think it’s just easier to say “a wizard did it” and leave it at that.

[Giftheck 916]

According to both Avengers: Endgame and Loki, the past can't be rewritten, so when the villains are removed from their timelines, it creates variant timelines for each of them. They're not sent back to their 'universes of origin'.

 

Sucks for them: according to Loki, the TVA is destined to prune each and every variant timeline.

[Jay 37,249]

41 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

Spider-Sense. I guess it still works without the soul in the body?

 

What do you mean?  Spidey-sense is when he senses danger nearby, right?

 

What does that have to do with controlling his body while outside of it?

[Giftheck 916]

That is one use of his Spider Sense, yes, but it's more complicated than that. He has a heightened awareness of his surroundings, somewhat similarly to Daredevil. In fact, in the comics, it works even when he's unconscious. As to how he moves, I'm not sure Peter was consciously controlling that, because even Strange was confused by it. I think it's more that he's moving almost instinctually.

[Jay 37,249]

Huh.  Interesting

[Brónach 1,301]

I feel like all the villains are there for fanservice except Green Goblin, but I guess that's fine.

[Bilbo 3,709]

58 minutes ago, Brónach said:

I feel like all the villains are there for fanservice except Green Goblin, but I guess that's fine.

But why did they stop at 5? They should have had one more for real fan service.

[crocodile 7,973]

Because he changed the spell 5 times? 🤷

 

Karol 

[Giftheck 916]

Technically, 6 did come through, just one decided to get drunk at a bar instead.

[Tallguy 3,359]

Goblin had the most impact, obviously. The only fight scene that worked for me as an action scene was the first fight with Ock. I can't put my finger on it but it felt like the action scenes in Homecoming. Something about managing stakes, character, and geography. 

[crocodile 7,973]

I don't think there's much point to overanalyse this anyway. It's as flimsy of a concept as they come. And plus it's about a guy bitten by a radioactive spider. The technicalities of magic are somewhat irrelevant to me. Nothing much really makes sense in this movie.

 

What worries me bit more is that aunt May had to die and the world had to be brainwashed because Peter wanted to go to posh college with his mates. When you put it like that... 

 

Karol

[Bilbo 3,709]

21 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Because he changed the spell 5 times? 🤷

 

Karol 

so why didn’t they write it to have it 6 times and give us the Sinister Six?

[crocodile 7,973]

Think it was meant to be one per film. 

 

Karol

[A. A. Ron 1,736]

2 hours ago, His Royal Noelness said:

so why didn’t they write it to have it 6 times and give us the Sinister Six?

Sony has been very vocal about wanting a Sinister Six film for years now, but I think when they actually do it, it’ll be with characters they can reuse for as long as possible. I think the studio also hopes they can pull off the Six on their own, i.e. without having to share profits with Disney.

[Tallguy 3,359]

12 hours ago, crocodile said:

What worries me bit more is that aunt May had to die and the world had to be brainwashed because Peter wanted to go to posh college with his mates. When you put it like that... 

 

Peter taking selfish actions with fatal consequences that he repents of is kind of his bag.

[crocodile 7,973]

6 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Peter taking selfish actions with fatal consequences that he repents of is kind of his bag.

Oh yes, it definitely is. It's just particularly ridiculous here. 😂

 

Karol