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Will we ever get a BATMAN & ROBIN (Elliot Goldenthal, 1997) score release?


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I wish I had some valuable insight. But I would definitely purchase an expansion (and I sadly missed the Batman Forever expansion).

 

Whats this “Grand Gothic Suite”? That sounds incredible!

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6 hours ago, WampaRat said:

I wish I had some valuable insight. But I would definitely purchase an expansion (and I sadly missed the Batman Forever expansion).

 

Whats this “Grand Gothic Suite”? That sounds incredible!

 

Here's some information from Goldenthal's website!

https://www.elliotgoldenthal.com/grand-gothic-suite

 

And here's a recording:

https://elliot-goldenthal.s3.amazonaws.com/The+Grand+Gothic+Suite.mp3

 

There hasn't been a great recording of it yet, but this is the most compete/best quality performance I could find.

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3 hours ago, Archive Collection said:

I've heard people speculate that this is because of the dispute between Warner Bros. and Goldenthal over Tyler Bates' 300 score (that lifted several sections of Goldenthal's score to Titus) – apparently Goldenthal and Warner Bros. are not on good terms, and therefore neither have chosen to proceed with a new CD release. However, I'm not sure whether this is accurate. The 300 debacle happened in 2007, and five years later, Batman Forever received an expanded release. Goldenthal seems to be on good terms with LLL as well, since he approved their 2018 release of Alien 3.

Yes, but we don't know how long it took for the Batman Forever expansion to be put together. Might have been years for all we know.

 

Karol

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The 300 lawsuit thing is completely true. 

 

Forever was licensed before the lawsuit, it simply took a long time to finally release. 

 

No WB Goldenthal scores have been licensed to anyone since. 

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46 minutes ago, Jay said:

The 300 lawsuit thing is completely true. 

 

Forever was licensed before the lawsuit, it simply took a long time to finally release. 

 

No WB Goldenthal scores have been licensed to anyone since. 

Wow… so it took at least 5 years to release Batman Forever. I suppose they could have licensed it around the same time they were planning the two Elfman CD’s, and they just waited to release those first…

 

I noticed that the information for B&R’s score was updated on GEMA, roughly a year ago. I don’t think any new cue titles were added, but the entries were definitely updated (the work numbers and catalogue numbers were completely different, I believe). Not sure what the implications of this are.

 

Hopefully one day we’ll get to hear the score in an official release. For now, I’ll have to stick the the numerous bootleg versions.

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Yeah I definitely wouldn't use the release of Alien 3 as any indication of traction on B&R happening... totally separate studio and Goldenthal's beef was with WB, not Fox.

 

MV commented on the possibility of a reprint of Batman Returns (in April 2018) and it seemed like nothing had changed.

 

Quote

Nope. Too complicated of a deal and I highly doubt given the nature of the soundtrack that it could happen again

MV

 

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Sounds like it won’t be happening anytime soon. At least most of the score has leaked out already…

 

Speaking of which, I’ve spent quite a bit of time identifying the original cue numbers/titles and information for the score. If anyone wants me to post this, I will.

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Just to make sure I got it right,

WB is not good with Goldenthal because Tyler Bates copied Goldenthals music for 300.

Is this correct?

 

 

BTW thanks for the cue titles. I had to watch the entire movie to make my own titles. Never going to do this again...

Here's a "best of" of my titles:

 

"Defreezing Robin" (2m15)

"Iceman Watches A Movie" (5m38)

"Iceman Makes A Party Cooler" (6m45)

"My Exit Cue" (6m47)

"Disabling Robin" (6m49)

"Freeze Doesn't Like The Warm" (7m53)

"Icehead's Old Lady" (9m66)

"Icehead's New Lady" (9m67)

"My Vines Have A Crush On You" (13m95)

"Freeze Freezing Gotham" (13m98)

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8 minutes ago, David Müller said:

Just to make sure I got it right,

WB is not good with Goldenthal because Tyler Bates copied Goldenthals music for 300.

Is this correct?

 

Basically.  Here's some more info

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_Original_Motion_Picture_Soundtrack#Copyright_issues

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=43965&forumID=1&archive=0

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0120866/trivia

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/trivia

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well... Tyler still does his very best to imitate Elfman, Desplat aaaaaaaannnnd Goldenthal:

 

"Everyone's an Idiot" from Guardians of the Galaxy 1

https://youtu.be/EwzoVILkCdU?list=OLAK5uy_lK9yvYjzZZJBK2W06woFfwULuupPLuU4I&t=12

is basically
"The Batman Theme" from Batman 1 (1989)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoaU3kRFvLg

 

"Guardians United" from Guardians of the Galaxy 1
https://youtu.be/VH_Q5flTqYs?list=OLAK5uy_lK9yvYjzZZJBK2W06woFfwULuupPLuU4I&t=9

is very similar to
"Voldemort's End" from Harry Potter 7.2

https://youtu.be/qvQl1kF2zFY?t=18

 

"Kraglin and Drax" from Guardians of the Galaxy 2
https://youtu.be/e5VLAzWvVMA?list=OLAK5uy_k-SsCuvDq28o7yxAMmzzBvzoN08LYYiEQ&t=74

could by inspired by this magnificence
"Main Titles & Fanfare" from Batman 3

https://youtu.be/E7NUT1ehGOo?list=PLnpIGDCblPQX5RzM9lOwEqezQ4fZxOEGW&t=13

 

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17 hours ago, David Müller said:

well... Tyler still does his very best to imitate Elfman, Desplat aaaaaaaannnnd Goldenthal:

 

"Everyone's an Idiot" from Guardians of the Galaxy 1

https://youtu.be/EwzoVILkCdU?list=OLAK5uy_lK9yvYjzZZJBK2W06woFfwULuupPLuU4I&t=12

is basically
"The Batman Theme" from Batman 1 (1989)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoaU3kRFvLg

 

"Guardians United" from Guardians of the Galaxy 1
https://youtu.be/VH_Q5flTqYs?list=OLAK5uy_lK9yvYjzZZJBK2W06woFfwULuupPLuU4I&t=9

is very similar to
"Voldemort's End" from Harry Potter 7.2

https://youtu.be/qvQl1kF2zFY?t=18

 

"Kraglin and Drax" from Guardians of the Galaxy 2
https://youtu.be/e5VLAzWvVMA?list=OLAK5uy_k-SsCuvDq28o7yxAMmzzBvzoN08LYYiEQ&t=74

could by inspired by this magnificence
"Main Titles & Fanfare" from Batman 3

https://youtu.be/E7NUT1ehGOo?list=PLnpIGDCblPQX5RzM9lOwEqezQ4fZxOEGW&t=13

 

Oh man... those last two especially...

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

I wish someone released the beautifully curated score album that Goldenthal prepared at the time. I own it already, but it needs to be out there, commercially.

Any chance of listing what tracks he had proposed for this?

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It's a particularly good album assembly, I agree. And a better summation of the complete score than the Batman Forever OST.

 

If they ever release this score, I hope they include it

 

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One thing it is missing though is Telescope Destroyed. Or the first half of it anyway with the brilliant triumphant statement of Batman's theme.

 

Karol

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In my view Goldenthal is rather a bulky composer. Probably, He is too ingenious for my little brain. I have an album of his chamber music. It sounds to me like he opened a notation program on his computer and hit randomly hands and head on the keyboard, pressed "print" at the end and handed the result to various chamber ensembles. I believe, that it is challenging high quality music, but a little too challenging for me.

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56 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

In my view Goldenthal is rather a bulky composer. Probably, He is too ingenious for my little brain. I have an album of his chamber music. It sounds to me like he opened a notation program on his computer and hit randomly hands and head on the keyboard, pressed "print" at the end and handed the result to various chamber ensembles. I believe, that it is challenging high quality music, but a little too challenging for me.

 

 

But there's not anything particularly challenging about his Batman music. It is simultaneously acessbible, smart and interesting

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  • 5 months later...

Sorry to bump an old thread. We just watched B&R for the first time in ages. What started as a “hate-watch” evolved into a genuine fascination for such a go-for-broke bananas 2 hour toy commercial. 
 

Goldenthals score on the other hand is just as vibrant colorful as the movies production design. I did notice he reuses a handful of motifs from Batman Forever (Chase’s theme pops up as a generic Bruce Wayne romance motif, Nygmas 4 note repeating zany motif crops up a time or two to denote a “mystery”, even a bit if the two-face waltz appears in the action scenes.) Wonder if it was Goldenthals idea? or if it was was just temp-trac bleed through? Was there a particularly crazy schedule for scoring this film that caused him to reuse some stuff? 
 

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On 21/07/2022 at 5:07 AM, WampaRat said:

Wonder if it was Goldenthals idea? or if it was was just temp-trac bleed through? Was there a particularly crazy schedule for scoring this film that caused him to reuse some stuff? 
 

Goldenthal, like many composers, re-uses/quotes his prior works in his scores. I'm inclined to believe that this was his choice. There are bits of Interview With The Vampire, Alien 3 and Demolition Man in both of his Batman scores. Sections from IWTV, Alien 3 show up in Titus. Incidental material from Titus appears in The Glorias. His Symphony No. 2 is built around material from Sphere and Final Fantasy.

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2 hours ago, Archive Collection said:

Goldenthal, like many composers, re-uses/quotes his prior works in his scores. I'm inclined to believe that this was his choice. There are bits of Interview With The Vampire, Alien 3 and Demolition Man in both of his Batman scores. Sections from IWTV, Alien 3 show up in Titus. Incidental material from Titus appears in The Glorias. His Symphony No. 2 is built around material from Sphere and Final Fantasy.

Slightly tangential query, is his second symphony the Symphony in G assuming the Othello Symphony was ostensibly his first?

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29 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Slightly tangential query, is his second symphony the Symphony in G assuming the Othello Symphony was ostensibly his first?

That's right, although I think it was in G# minor haha. Othello also has heaps of ideas and fragments adapted from his other scores, that's just how composers operate.

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32 minutes ago, Archive Collection said:

That's right, although I think it was in G# minor haha. Othello also has heaps of ideas and fragments adapted from his other scores, that's just how composers operate.

As a musician and composer I should have spotted that. The fun alternative to A flat minor… however thanks for the info. I’ll give that a listen later. I recall it being thornier than the Othello Symphony (which is terrific, as is the original ballet) but a very fine work. 

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15 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

As a musician and composer I should have spotted that. The fun alternative to A flat minor… however thanks for the info. I’ll give that a listen later. I recall it being thornier than the Othello Symphony (which is terrific, as is the original ballet) but a very fine work. 

If I recall correctly, it's essentially a development of Sphere's "Main Title" and Final Fantasy's "Toccata and Dreamscapes".

 

The Othello symphony (and original ballet) are both excellent.

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While I do like the symphony version the ballet version is still superior. It might be my favourite work from Goldenthal actually. 

 

Karol

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7 hours ago, Archive Collection said:

If I recall correctly, it's essentially a development of Sphere's "Main Title" and Final Fantasy's "Toccata and Dreamscapes".

 

The Othello symphony (and original ballet) are both excellent.

I'll have to give them another listen and compare. I guess with Goldenthal, much of his work can sound like a sideways development of another, especially with all those various idiosyncratic orchestral devices (the wailing brass, for example) he employs that are unmistakably him. I therefore don't really think to listen out for callbacks to specific works in his concert pieces, just assuming he's simply deploying his well developed and instantly recognisable composing style (none of this is meant as a criticism!).

 

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

While I do like the symphony version the ballet version is still superior. It might be my favourite work from Goldenthal actually. 

 

Karol

Agree about the Othello symphony and ballet, I need to give them both another listen. The ballet used to be one of my favourite Goldenthal works in any medium (although if it isn't, I don't know what is!). A bit like with some of Elfman's concert works, it's like a distillation of the essence of Goldenthal's music in its purest form. Terrific stuff.

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On 23/7/2022 at 4:51 PM, crocodile said:

While I do like the symphony version the ballet version is still superior. It might be my favourite work from Goldenthal actually. 

 

Karol

Just listened to the ballet version recently, and I agree. The recording is excellent. 
 

Batman Forever and Interview With The Vampire would probably be my favourite scores, but I really appreciate the intelligence and sophistication of his concert works.

 

As much as I enjoy EG’s integration of electronic production elements into his film music, it is nice to hear a more organic and refined sound.

 

I really hope that Goldenthal can score a few more big-budget action films - even if the film is rubbish, his music never fails to deliver.

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EG was truly a pioneer, a visionary, but he also had a very idiosyncratic style. I write this in the past tense as EG has not been doing much lately outside of repurposing his works for symphonies. Man, EG was such a fresh sound in 1992. Then, the horns got approximated, etc. I largely blame Brian Tyler for this. 2003's Hunted was when I truly noticed the massive Goldenthal 'homage':

 

 

Just to be clear. Tyler was ahead of the game here and he did not copy any EG work but used the general approach - massive brass, percussion, atonality, dark if any melodies - but Tyler was so promising. Now he is a car advertisement. And the score stuff he does is just empty nonsense. How does he live with himself, especially after composing amazing stuff like this......

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There's a very likely answer to why Tyler had that: he shares Robert Elhai as an orchestrator with Goldenthal. So chances are, any potential similarities might have to do with that particular factoid.

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  • 1 month later...

I came here to find out where the tracks featured in this video uploaded to YouTube by Xxensational came from and am kind of surprised to see that it hasn't been discussed at all here. At first, I thought it might be a reconstruction, but listening to it more closely, it's definitely the real thing. The highest quality recordings of the score I could find on the internet. The question is, who is Xxensational and how do they have access to these recordings? The question has been asked in that video's comment section but the uploader hasn't responded. Does anyone have any insight, or is Xxensational perhaps among us? I'd be stoked to learn that there's a version of the entire score out there that's as high quality as this video. 

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6 hours ago, revdelvo said:

I came here to find out where the tracks featured in this video uploaded to YouTube by Xxensational came from and am kind of surprised to see that it hasn't been discussed at all here. At first, I thought it might be a reconstruction, but listening to it more closely, it's definitely the real thing. The highest quality recordings of the score I could find on the internet. The question is, who is Xxensational and how do they have access to these recordings? The question has been asked in that video's comment section but the uploader hasn't responded. Does anyone have any insight, or is Xxensational perhaps among us? I'd be stoked to learn that there's a version of the entire score out there that's as high quality as this video. 


The recording sessions have leaked online, in lossless quality. There are a few cues missing from the sessions but most of the score is there online, you’ll just need to do a bit of googling, but it’s not hard to find.

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1 hour ago, Archive Collection said:


The recording sessions have leaked online, in lossless quality. There are a few cues missing from the sessions but most of the score is there online, you’ll just need to do a bit of googling, but it’s not hard to find.

Strange, I've been looking for so long but I guess I just used the wrong keywords. Thanks!

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