John Williams' Piano Concerto for Emanuel Ax

[Bayesian 1,448]

On 27/10/2024 at 4:27 AM, Miguel Andrade said:

 

Beside the Yo-Yo Ma connection, Ax is a member of the Boston Symphony and Tanglewood families, just as Williams and Ma are and they have shared the stage on numerous occasions -- most notably at the 1994 Tanglewood on Parade, where the two, along with Maria Tipo, were the soloist on Mozart's Concerto for 3 pianos (with Ozawa leading the BSO). 

I just love the fact that JW also occasionally performed classical works and not just conducted them. To be sure, I’m gonna guess playing the third piano in a Mozart stunt concerto (seriously, what could have been the point of writing such a thing, other than to say, “look what I can do”?) isn’t the hardest thing in the world for a pianist, but still—the fact that he did play the part, that he could play the part, is just another reminder of the total musician that JW is. 

[Steve 622]

15 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

I just love the fact that JW also occasionally performed classical works and not just conducted them. To be sure, I’m gonna guess playing the third piano in a Mozart stunt concerto (seriously, what could have been the point of writing such a thing, other than to say, “look what I can do”?) isn’t the hardest thing in the world for a pianist, but still—the fact that he did play the part, that he could play the part, is just another reminder of the total musician that JW is. 

I'm sure he can play more difficult pieces than that. At least in the past when he practiced for five hours each day. Unfortunately there is only one record of him performing classical music on the piano (the Cello/Piano album with Lustgarten). He may not be on the Previn-level of piano skills, but he is a fantastic player for sure.

I wish he'd do a "JW plays JW" album, but that will never happen.

[Jurassic Shark 13,740]

Well, there's this:

 

  

 

[Steve 622]

14 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, there's this:

 

  

 

Yes I know these. But with Gershwin the question is which of his music is considered classical and which is jazz? You could also add the Jessy Norman album.

[Jurassic Shark 13,740]

I considered doing so but I guess only a few tracks would qualify as classical music.

[Miguel Andrade 1,400]

3 hours ago, Bayesian said:

I just love the fact that JW also occasionally performed classical works and not just conducted them. To be sure, I’m gonna guess playing the third piano in a Mozart stunt concerto (seriously, what could have been the point of writing such a thing, other than to say, “look what I can do”?) isn’t the hardest thing in the world for a pianist, but still—the fact that he did play the part, that he could play the part, is just another reminder of the total musician that JW is. 

Here's a picture from the concert:

 

[WilliamsStarShip2282 321]

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, there's this:

 

  

 

 

The program note for this album is actually very interesting. The Porgy and Bess fantasy was done by Sandy Courage, and Williams, for I feel the only Tim I have ever seen, was not overly flattering about it.

5 hours ago, Steve said:

I'm sure he can play more difficult pieces than that. At least in the past when he practiced for five hours each day. Unfortunately there is only one record of him performing classical music on the piano (the Cello/Piano album with Lustgarten). He may not be on the Previn-level of piano skills, but he is a fantastic player for sure.

I wish he'd do a "JW plays JW" album, but that will never happen.

 

You are talking about the Prokofiev sonata recording right?

He has played his own pieces live though, some of which are quite challenging, much more than that Mozart concerto. The piano reductions (but more like straight its own version) of his concerti can also be quite challenging to play. I think he and Previn were about the same level as pianist, except Previn performed much more than Williams, which kept him in better shape to do more.

It is funny to me though that Andre Previn was given a lot of garbage until his days with the LSO, JW similarly until the last couple decades, about being too "pop" and not classical and not "serious" music, and probably not considered serious pianists either. But all of their records, live and studio, of all kinds are really clean and put together and wonderful, great compositions from both obviously, and great pianists. Leonard Bernstein is someone who was idolized and he has so many recordings that are sloppy, a lot of his works (the famous ones) were mostly written by other people, and was a terribly sloppy pianist.

 

[artguy360 1,941]

6 hours ago, Steve said:

I'm sure he can play more difficult pieces than that. At least in the past when he practiced for five hours each day. Unfortunately there is only one record of him performing classical music on the piano (the Cello/Piano album with Lustgarten). He may not be on the Previn-level of piano skills, but he is a fantastic player for sure.

I wish he'd do a "JW plays JW" album, but that will never happen.

A JW plays JW album would be incredible!

[Schilkeman 1,332]

8 hours ago, Steve said:

But with Gershwin the question is which of his music is considered classical and which is jazz?

It's Third Stream.

[TownerFan 5,420]

9 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

He has played his own pieces live though, some of which are quite challenging, much more than that Mozart concerto. The piano reductions (but more like straight its own version) of his concerti can also be quite challenging to play. I think he and Previn were about the same level as pianist, except Previn performed much more than Williams, which kept him in better shape to do more.

 

Anyone who has heard JW playing piano has referred to him using superlatives, so he is definitely a great pianist. His character however is not prone to show off this ability of his (much to the detriment of all of us, sadly), so I think he always resisted the idea of playing piano recitals/solos in public more often and doing solo recordings (I'm sure he was asked many times). Whenever he did play in public, he often humbly deflected the cheer to the soloist he was accompanying, and whatever solo he recorded (Schindler's List, Sabrina, Lincoln), he didn't even want a credit on the album. He's very very modest when it comes to these things.

 

Thank goodness these gold nuggets were saved for posterity:

 

 

 

[Miguel Andrade 1,400]

Regarding "Gershwin Fantasy": the Heifetz arrangements of the Preludes were recorded shortly before by Shaham and Previn. When the Bell/Williams album came out, the earlier recording was still fresh in the mind of some Gramophone magazine reviewer placing Williams piano playing above Previn's. I can try to find that old review, not sure if it is accessible online for non-subscribers. Can't remember what else was told about the album.

 

Regarding solo recitals: Williams did concertize occasionally. There was a Boston Globe article from his early days in Boston (1980 or 1981) how he spent his free time giving a recital with Emanuel Borok (former concertmaster in Boston), instead of relaxing at home. If memory serves, the program was made of a couple of sonatas (can't remember the composers) and included Williams' own violin and piano take on "Fiddler on the Roof".

[Steve 622]

18 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

You are talking about the Prokofiev sonata recording right?

Yes, this one: https://www.discogs.com/de/master/2843545-Edgar-Lustgarten-2-John-Williams-Serge-Prokofiev-Sonata-For-Cello-Piano-David-Ward-Steinman-Duo-For-

 

 

18 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

I think he and Previn were about the same level as pianist, except Previn performed much more than Williams, which kept him in better shape to do more.

As much as I love JW, he isn't that close to Previn's level on the piano. He even said in an interview that Previn was always a bit better than him. If you are a piano player then listen to their early jazz recordings and you will notice the difference. Previn was one of the best jazz pianists ever. And his classical playing was great also:

Spoiler

 

It's one thing to be able to play a difficult piece at home, but playing it flawlessly in a live concert is a much bigger challange. Not sure if JW could play a 30 minute concerto live (or could have done in the past, surely not at 92 years of age). I wish there were more videos of him playing the piano. But honestly, you can't compare the "Theme from Sabrina" with a piano concerto or piano quartett.

 

18 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Leonard Bernstein is someone who was idolized and he has so many recordings that are sloppy, a lot of his works (the famous ones) were mostly written by other people, and was a terribly sloppy pianist.

I'm sorry, but this is really bs. Bernstein was a world class classical pianist. Not sure what you listened to to make such a silly statement.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 321]

5 hours ago, Steve said:

Yes, this one: https://www.discogs.com/de/master/2843545-Edgar-Lustgarten-2-John-Williams-Serge-Prokofiev-Sonata-For-Cello-Piano-David-Ward-Steinman-Duo-For-

 

 

As much as I love JW, he isn't that close to Previn's level on the piano. He even said in an interview that Previn was always a bit better than him. If you are a piano player then listen to their early jazz recordings and you will notice the difference. Previn was one of the best jazz pianists ever. And his classical playing was great also:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It's one thing to be able to play a difficult piece at home, but playing it flawlessly in a live concert is a much bigger challange. Not sure if JW could play a 30 minute concerto live (or could have done in the past, surely not at 92 years of age). I wish there were more videos of him playing the piano. But honestly, you can't compare the "Theme from Sabrina" with a piano concerto or piano quartett.

 

I'm sorry, but this is really bs. Bernstein was a world class classical pianist. Not sure what you listened to to make such a silly statement.

 

 

 

I will agree with that one thing, Previn was an incredible jazz pianist. He never re-invented the wheel but he was one of the best. I have all of his albums. The playing on King Sized! is insanely difficult, especially with all the fast octave work.

 

[Schilkeman 1,332]

On 28/10/2024 at 8:09 PM, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

a lot of his works (the famous ones) were mostly written by other people

Are you implying he did not compose himself? Do you have a source for that? I've heard many statements over the years regarding Bernstein's "sloppiness" that do not seem to hold up to close scrutiny to me. Now, if you want to talk about Barenboim, I'm all ears.

[Jurassic Shark 13,740]

5 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

 

 

 

I will agree with that one thing, Previn was an incredible jazz pianist. He never re-invented the wheel but he was one of the best. I have all of his albums. The playing on King Sized! is insanely difficult, especially with all the fast octave work.

 

 

How many jazz albums did he do?

[BB-8 4,148]

"It's happening!"

[WilliamsStarShip2282 321]

20 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Are you implying he did not compose himself? Do you have a source for that? I've heard many statements over the years regarding Bernstein's "sloppiness" that do not seem to hold up to close scrutiny to me. Now, if you want to talk about Barenboim, I'm all ears.

 

Not off the top of my head, but it has been in many biographies about him, including the one by his daughter. This is not some kind of hidden secret.

I like Barenboim as a pianist, I don't really see a problem with him, I've seen him a couple times live it was great. But as a conductor in my opinion.....very different story.....

18 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

How many jazz albums did he do?

 

I think he had something like 50 of his own albums of his own. In full disclosure, I discovered looking it up that I don't actually have them all, just all the major ones which is maybe half. Some I could only find on ancient original printing vinyl.

Its too bad he never played outside of a certain group of people though, would have been interesting. I think doing that show with Oscar Peterson was the closest he got to performing with another jazz legend, aside from Ray Brown.

[Tom 5,230]

On 29/10/2024 at 1:45 PM, Steve said:

It's one thing to be able to play a difficult piece at home, but playing it flawlessly in a live concert is a much bigger challange. Not sure if JW could play a 30 minute concerto live (or could have done in the past, surely not at 92 years of age). I wish there were more videos of him playing the piano. But honestly, you can't compare the "Theme from Sabrina" with a piano concerto or piano quartett.

 

Well, maybe not those pieces, but what about this?

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 13,740]

On 29/10/2024 at 1:09 AM, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Leonard Bernstein is someone who was idolized and he has so many recordings that are sloppy, a lot of his works (the famous ones) were mostly written by other people

 

Are you saying he was a forerunner to Zimmer?

[TownerFan 5,420]

8 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Not off the top of my head, but it has been in many biographies about him, including the one by his daughter. This is not some kind of hidden secret.

 

I don't think Leonard Bernstein had other people writing for him at all. He regularly had orchestrators contributing on many of his Broadway scores including West Side Story (Sid Ramin was his go-to guy, and also personal friend). He likely got some slack for that by the irreducible purists who don't know jack about how music is often created.

[Schilkeman 1,332]

On 31/10/2024 at 4:34 AM, TownerFan said:

I don't think Leonard Bernstein had other people writing for him at all.

Yeah, I find no evidence of this at all. Some extra stuff was written for the film adaptation of WSS, but I can't find anything suggesting he didn't write his music himself. As for the orchestrations, it seems that was a time thing, not a Lenny couldn't do it thing, as per this example.

[Poor_Man_S_HirschFeld 28]

Maybe this notion originated by the role Tom Cothran played in putting together the Norton Lectures Bernstein gave at Harvard? I just googled this briefly today and came across this article from the LA Times: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-nov-01-ca-28507-story.html#:~:text=Tom Cothran%2C who assisted Leonard,embarrassing than they already were.

 

The piece is quite disparaging, though.

 

Personally I find the Norton Lectures absolutely beautiful, illuminating and even moving (and what a gifted lecturer Lenny was!)

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,403]

10 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Yeah, I find no evidence of this at all. Some extra stuff was written for the film adaptation of WSS, but I can't find anything suggesting he didn't write his music himself. As for the orchestrations, it seems that was a time thing, not a Lenny couldn't do it thang, as per this example.

Also, the orchestra for a Broadway show is different than a concert orchestra. As is the venue. The score has to be tailored for a theatrical performance. You don't always know what resources will be available or what the final version will be until the last minute

 

[WilliamsStarShip2282 321]

15 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Are you saying he was a forerunner to Zimmer?

No, not QUITE on that level of terrible

15 hours ago, TownerFan said:

 

I don't think Leonard Bernstein had other people writing for him at all. He regularly had orchestrators contributing on many of his Broadway scores including West Side Story (Sid Ramin was his go-to guy, and also personal friend). He likely got some slack for that by the irreducible purists who don't know jack about how music is often created.

 

It's in his own daughters biography of him. Go have a read instead of saying people don't know jack

[JWScores 43]

14 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

It's in his own daughters biography of him. 

 

So, who would Bernstein's ghostwriters be? I haven't found any info about this. There is a rumour that maybe Sondheim did something for West Side Story but, from what I understood, it is a groundless speculation. If you have access to that biography, could you just tell us what his daughter said? 

[TownerFan 5,420]

17 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

It's in his own daughters biography of him. Go have a read instead of saying people don't know jack

 

Chill down, pal. I wasn't referring to you. This is genuinely the first time I hear claims about Bernstein having ghostwriters. I will certainly go deep down investigating the issue. I was talking with @Miguel Andrade today, he is a LB connoisseur and confirmed that these claims are known among historians and scholars of LB. It's known that he struggled with writing. When I wrote about "purists" is because too often I read comments from such people pointing their finger to anyone who had help from an orchestrator or an arranger as if these people were frauds, but I wasn't referring to you at all.

[bruce marshall 1,403]

Writing for the stage is like writing for the screen: it's a collaboration.

The Composer isnt always involved from conception to the final product.

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

22 hours ago, JWScores said:

 

So, who would Bernstein's ghostwriters be? I haven't found any info about this. There is a rumour that maybe Sondheim did something for West Side Story but, from what I understood, it is a groundless speculation. If you have access to that biography, could you just tell us what his daughter said? 

I in no way think Bernstein had ghost writers - I imagine he was far too much of an artist for that, much like JW - but I always thought that a couple of songs in WSS sounded like proto-Sondheim. However, I rather put that down to Sondheim having worked with Bernstein and absorbing some of his style, which seems entirely reasonable given that he was working with someone of such stature.

[bruce marshall 1,403]

SS has said he hated " I Feel Pretty".

So....

[ChrisAfonso 204]

20 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

SS has said he hated " I Feel Pretty".

So....

I think I recall that what he didn't like about it was his unidiomatic (too poetic) lyrics for Maria? (I don't remember any comments about the music)

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

22 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

SS has said he hated " I Feel Pretty".

So....

 

2 hours ago, ChrisAfonso said:

I think I recall that what he didn't like about it was his unidiomatic (too poetic) lyrics for Maria? (I don't remember any comments about the music)

Yes, I think it was basically that they weren't words that a person like Maria would say so it feels too fanciful for the character (or words to that effect).

[bruce marshall 1,403]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 

Yes, I think it was basically that they weren't words that a person like Maria would say so it feels too fanciful for the character (or words to that effect).

My point was SS wouldn't have criticized it if he didn't write it- music and lyrics.

But, it's just conjecture

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

My point was SS wouldn't have criticized it if he didn't write it- music and lyrics.

But, it's just conjecture

I think it was more of a retrospective criticism of his earlier self rather than because he didn't write the music and lyrics. Perhaps he would have written something that sounded more plausible coming from her character had he been writing the music, but that's not the impression I get. It's more an experienced songwriting re-evaluating his earlier work.

[bruce marshall 1,403]

I seem to be having difficulty explaining myself.

My point:

 Someone said LB didn't write all the music for WSS.

I conjectured that " I Feel Pretty" might be a song he didn't contribute to. My reasoning being Sondheim criticized it and I don't know if he would have done so had he not written the words and music.  Out of professional respect for LB, he would be reluctant to criticize it if LB was co- writer.

Again, pure speculation😊

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

4 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

I seem to be having difficulty explaining myself.

My point:

 Someone said LB didn't write all the music for WSS.

I conjectured that " I Feel Pretty" might be a song he didn't contribute to. My reasoning being Sondheim criticized it and I don't know if he would have done so had he not written the words and music.  Out of professional respect for LB, he would be reluctant to criticize it if LB was co- writer.

Again, pure speculation😊

Oh I see what you mean now but I'm sure SS did write all of the lyrics to WSS and I have a feeling that it's not an especially old criticism (at least long since LB died).

[bruce marshall 1,403]

5 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Oh I see what you mean now but I'm sure SS did write all of the lyrics to WSS ....

No, you're still missing my point!😄

I'm saying that " I Feel Pretty" might, I said MIGHT, have been a solo effort by SS.

He probably would have been reluctant to criticize it otherwise, e.g. if LB was the co-writer

Remember, Sondheim is also a COMPOSER!

[Mr. Hooper 3,750]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:20 PM, bruce marshall said:

SS has said he hated " I Feel Pretty".

It's my least favourite thing in WSS, too.

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

9 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

No, you're still missing my point!😄

I'm saying that " I Feel Pretty" might, I said MIGHT, have been a solo effort by SS.

He probably would have been reluctant to criticize it otherwise, e.g. if LB was the co-writer

Remember, Sondheim is also a COMPOSER!

You’re right. I haven’t a clue what you’re on about and I know he is a composer. I’ve seen almost all of his shows. I was at the original Old Friends tribute performance after his death with my other half (you can see us in the audience a couple of times in better seats than Dawn French crucially…) so I am a reasonably competent Sondheim fan. Albeit not to the same level as my partner who is a much longer time aficionado.

 

However. It appears we were both wrong as to where the criticism came from. This is from Finishing the Hat (volume one)…

 

[bruce marshall 1,403]

5 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It's my least favourite thing in WSS, too.

The only weak part of the remake . Not so much the song as the placement.

 

 

Did SS and LB actively collaborate? Was it more of a Elton John/Bernie Taupin situation.

[MarkHuck 0]

His concert works always have this way of balancing complexity with accessibility, so I’d bet the structure will be both satisfying and surprising. A full concerto usually runs 20-40 minutes, but with Williams, you never know—he might lean toward something shorter and more intimate, or go for a grander scale.

One thing that makes a piano concerto so exciting is how the piano interacts with the orchestra. It’s a perfect opportunity to showcase not just virtuosity but collaboration, like what Expert Teachers emphasize in refining both technique and interpretation.