"The Ugly Truth of How Movie Scores Are Made" - Vanity Fair article 2/21/22

[badbu 123]

no new news. i don't think it's a bad thing. just listen to hans sketchbooks, that's always his idea of the score. and if other people work on it afterwards, it doesn't matter... besides, hans gives so many young composers the opportunity to come forward. besides, there are gohstwriters everywhere...for books, music, etc. 

hans is one of the best composers of the last 30 years and anyone who says otherwise has no idea. you don't have to like his music but it pisses me off that everything he does is badly maligned. 

 

[Mephariel 451]

2 minutes ago, badbu said:

no new news. i don't think it's a bad thing. just listen to hans sketchbooks, that's always his idea of the score. and if other people work on it afterwards, it doesn't matter... besides, hans gives so many young composers the opportunity to come forward. besides, there are gohstwriters everywhere...for books, music, etc. 

hans is one of the best composers of the last 30 years and anyone who says otherwise has no idea. you don't have to like his music but it pisses me off that everything he does is badly maligned. 

 

 

The article isn't really bashing Zimmer though. It noted that if the pay is decent, you can be quite happy as an additional composer. And he noted that Powell, Balfe, and Gregson-Williams are able to become lead composers themselves after going through RCP. The story even mentioned that one composer felt Zimmer is doing a better job giving credits than he had be in the past. The royalties, payments, and credits however are a huge problem in the industry. People are getting paid $150 per cue and others are accepting awards for cues they didn't write. But the bigger threat is streaming. Streaming basically killed royalties. 

 

I thought the story did a great job pointing out the polarization of Zimmer and RCP within the subject matter. But ultimate it is a story about the hard working people in the industry getting screwed and how they will survive in a fast changing landscape. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

So Giacchino is the New evil now, if i read the thread correctly?

 

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

4 hours ago, Will said:

If anyone finds any statements by James Newton Howard about whether he uses ghostwriters, I'd love to see it. He's a guy I'm curious about (along with Silvestri). For that matter, if anyone finds any quotes of Desplat, Giacchino, or anyone else talking about ghostwriting, please post!

 

Let me phrase it this way: whenever there's one of those non-descript 9-minute noisy action cues turns up on scores like 'Huntsman', i don't particularly care if JNH or someone else did it. I don't want to listen to it either way. 

 

So this whole outrage seems a bit misdirected, it's not like there's loads of brilliant musical stuff credited to the wrong guy. It's more about denying your subordinates proper wages.

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

It's important that people get the wages they deserve for the work they are doing.

 

And this shouldn't depend on if a score/cue is good or not and if the movie/series did well. A person worked really hard on it and should get properly payed for that.

[badbu 123]

[publicist 4,643]

Damage control.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yes, the Zannelli thread was posted on a previous page yesterday.  I think he and many of the Zimlings that have succeeded might not even be able to envision a different way of doing things.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

43 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Yes, the Zannelli thread was posted on a previous page yesterday.  I think he and many of the Zimlings that have succeeded might not even be able to envision a different way of doing things.

 

Yep - they might go - writing an entire score alone????? - are you nuts??? - who does that??? - can you imagine playing football with a team of one??? - no you can't because no one does that. 

 

For some of these additional composers, composing a film score is a collaborative project. And they will never comprehend the desire to do it alone.

[Edmilson 7,393]

What bummed me about the article is not that famous film composers use ghostwriters, orchestrators, arrangers, etc. I knew that decades ago. Hell, Star Trek: The Motion Picture is my favorite Goldsmith score and the 2012 expanded edition confirmed that the deadline for that movie was so tight that some cues got written by other guys.

 

What is depressing for me is that the job of the person credited as the main composer was, according to the article, nothing more than tell what kind of cue he wants for this scene and let the additional composer do all the hardwork. 

 

I can understand the additional composer writing, well, ADDITIONAL music, i.e. minor cues that the main guy didn't have time to write or making adjustments to major cues to fit the director's need. As long as the main body of the score is done by the main composer, I can forgive him for asking for help in some cues. That's what I imagine is the case with JNH, Silvestri, Elfman, etc.

 

But I don't like when the guy gets billed as the single composer for a movie, but he didn't do almost nothing. I mean, The Simpsons Movie is credited to Zimmer, but I don't think he wrote anything more than that Spider-Pig song, while his actual job in the movie was to sit down and tell someone he needs these and these cues.

 

I'm not trying to paint Zimmer as the villain - he is certainly more generous than others when crediting his assistants. But I'm sad to hear that many of the people credited as the composer pretty much haven't done actual composing.

[publicist 4,643]

18 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

What is depressing for me is that the job of the person credited as the main composer was, according to the article, nothing more than tell what kind of cue he wants for this scene and let the additional composer do all the hardwork. 

 

 

What's more depressing to me is that 99% of it is so bland and devoid of character that i don't even look who's credited. 

 

One of the few good things in 2021 was Greenwood's Power of the Dog, even if it's not exactly easy listening, and guess what? He probably wrote it all by himself and you know just by listening to it. 

 

 

[Tom 4,639]

There seems to be two big questions: Are composers getting appropriate credit/pay for their work under the main composer?  Secondly, from the perspective of art evaluation, does the main composer get artistic credit for a piece he/she only sketched?  On the second question, it would be bizarre to find out that Da Vinci or Picasso only sketched the big idea of a painting, while "assistants" did most of the painting.  Same with novels and such.  "Hey, I have an idea of a guy who murders someone and then feels guilty."  "Okay, Mr. Dostoevsky, let me help you realize your vision--what's your deadline?"  

[publicist 4,643]

Why do bizarre names like Picasso or Da Vinci always turn up in topics like this? We are talking about Hans Zimmer, Bear McCreary or Brian Tyler and their slaves here, for christ sake, not sacred legends of the musical artform.

[GerateWohl 4,341]

14 minutes ago, Tom said:

There seems to be two big questions: Are composers getting appropriate credit/pay for their work under the main composer?  Secondly, from the perspective of art evaluation, does the main composer get artistic credit for a piece he/she only sketched?  On the second question, it would be bizarre to find out that Da Vinci or Picasso only sketched the big idea of a painting, while "assistants" did most of the painting.  Same with novels and such.  "Hey, I have an idea of a guy who murders someone and then feels guilty."  "Okay, Mr. Dostoevsky, let me help you realize your vision--what's your deadline?"  

Many artists had/have assistants preparing or doing part of their work. I remember discussions about how much of Rembrandt's paintings was actually done by him or his students. And don't get me started about writing. A lot of rumours were there that Stephen King and J.K. Rowling were later in their career running a writer factory and just gave the input and let others write the book. I have no idea how much of it is true.

 

But maybe, being aware of these mchanisms of the industry could also result in something good. Maybe a more objective consumer view on things. For example soundtrack collectors probably often decided to buy and even to like a score because they assumed that it was written by one of their favourite composer. Now they can lean back and think, "Do I really like that score? Is it really that good? Or do I just listen to it, because I think, it was written by xyz? And when I look at it objectively by imagening it was writen by somebody else, even someone that I probably don't like, it doesn't give me much and actually it is nothing special."

 

Could be an opportunity to sharpen our taste.

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I continue to like Bear McCreary quite a bit, and on great scores by him like Rebel in the Rye or Rim of the World (both of which don't have any additional composers credited) I hear a musical voice that I'm glad is working today.

 

But especially when it comes to McCreary's many TV shows, where obviously the majority of the workload is carried by the additional composers, it would be nice if the credits for an individual episode could just be more clear.  Maybe something like this on an episode of Outlander or Snowpiercer:

 

Music by Jason Akers

Themes by Bear McCreary

 

Or maybe "Score Produced by Bear McCreary"

 

Akers was at least able to get the main music credit for the final season of Agents of SHIELD though.

 

[publicist 4,643]

McCreary is certainly in no imminent danger of having to apply for unemployment benefits. Just how interesting it really is *musically* to churn out all this stuff for these never-ending Netflix series is anybody's guess.

 

Everyone who works for big agencies doing a lot of pitches knows how much work even goes into this most unloved chore: preparations, meetings, presentations etc., it must be a chore to having to do all this in addition to what you are really doing, and then all you get out of it is 20 seasons of 'Outlander'.

[Jay 37,300]

12 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

See, now this is how it's done.

 

 

This is great.

[Bespin 8,480]

And the Oscar goes to... a composer who's composing credits are transparent and clear.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

As for some of these other composers like JNH, Silvestri, Eflman - let me speculate. 

I think the gutter trash garbage state the American film and tv industry is also in large part a cause - as are terrifying technology changes. 

Take Episode 9. We know Williams had a terrible time on it because the edit was changing dramatically and drastically from day to day to day. When does Williams even score it? There is no locked picture till premiere night in many of these case. I know it is truly shocking but this is just a standard state of affairs these days. There is no pencil down moment anymore where the edit is locked and the film is sent to the composer. That is just a fantasy now. These days a film can be edited literally until the last moment in premieres or is dropped on streaming and often is. Even a release these days is not final final final. As with digital technology, we have seen edits AFTER RELEASE TOO. Withs streaming it is easy, just replace the file on the server. With Cinemas too it is sadly easy these days. Most theaters use digital projection. Just transmit a new version to theaters to voila. Even No Way Home has been known to send some improved VFX shots to theaters after release.

 

So essentially a window to score the film that was set aside in the past DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE. 

 

What is the result of this?

 

Your score is never done until the moment of recording (if recording with the orchestra - we know even that is going away as more and more people are using syths.)

 

So this is why some of the name composers might use additional composers - 

 

JNH will write the cue. Then revise it. Then revise it again. And again. And again. And again. And again - the 9th time. 10th time. 11th time. 15th time.

 

There will come a time when he would be like - and very legitimately - I HAVE FUCKING DONE MY WORK. THIS ISN'T WORTH MY TIME OR DIGNITY ANYMORE. Here additional composer - the cue is 90% there. The director can't stop fiddling with the scene. For versions 16 through 40 - you make the adjustments - which can be taking notes off here, adding few there, lowering brass here because the Sound VFX guy wants his bullet sound, increasing tempo here because the cut is sooner. 

 

This is the pure minutiae of it. And many composers have done this work too - painstakingly. JNH himself wrote the main title of Fantastic Beasts 41 times.

 

But can you blame him if he feels - that on Hunger Games 4, cue 58, version 27 - he feels. That's it. I am giving this to an assistant to adjust. 

 

I should hasten to add, in this case - it would still be JNH's work. But in Zimmer's case - the entire cue is assigned to the additional composer. It is almost a reverse relationship. The additional composer writes first and then Zimmer comes in and makes adjustments. In that case - the credit should go to the additional composer for the cue - he fucking wrote it. 

It is truly a sorry business now - film and music scoring. We know the sheer reckless horrifying abandon these large 300 million dollar movies work on - fiddling till the last second. No good film scoring is possible due to such circumstances and the monster of additional composers is as much of the result of the director's schizophrenia as it is of the composers's laziness and lack of talent.

[Bespin 8,480]

The cause of all this is the digital editing of films.

 

It's currently destroying cinema.

 

Well, that's my opinion.

[Holko 9,499]

Yes, that's where I'd put my focus too, the root cause that necessitates this whole thing in the first place.

9 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

There is no locked picture till premiere night in many of these case. I know it is truly shocking but this is just a standard state of affairs these days. There is no pencil down moment anymore where the edit is locked and the film is sent to the composer. That is just a fantasy now.

...but to be honest, even Spielberg very often hacked JW pieces up in a reedit.

[ymenard 54]

Even Auguste Rodin didn't do all his sculptures by himself, he had a team of craftsmen who did replicas in plaster or cray, and then from these, final stone/metal sculptures.  That doesn't diminish his works.

 

Giacchino is co-crediting these days, with Nami Melumad on some of his co-worked scores, like An American Pickle and Medal of Honor : Above and Beyond.

Orchestrators is just not a defined job in terms of the limits of what they do, it's just very large depending on the budget of a score, the type of movie (MCU vs a small scale drama piece) and the type of score (Greenwood' almost Chamber music vs electronic of large orchestrated scores that require a lot of hands and time to tweak).

 

[GerateWohl 4,341]

18 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

As for some of these other composers like JNH, Silvestri, Eflman - let me speculate. 

I think the gutter trash garbage state the American film and tv industry is also in large part a cause - as are terrifying technology changes. 

Take Episode 9. We know Williams had a terrible time on it because the edit was changing dramatically and drastically from day to day to day. When does Williams even score it? There is no locked picture till premiere night in many of these case. I know it is truly shocking but this is just a standard state of affairs these days. There is no pencil down moment anymore where the edit is locked and the film is sent to the composer. That is just a fantasy now. These days a film can be edited literally until the last moment in premieres or is dropped on streaming and often is. Even a release these days is not final final final. As with digital technology, we have seen edits AFTER RELEASE TOO. Withs streaming it is easy, just replace the file on the server. With Cinemas too it is sadly easy these days. Most theaters use digital projection. Just transmit a new version to theaters to voila. Even No Way Home has been known to send some improved VFX shots to theaters after release.

 

So essentially a window to score the film that was set aside in the past DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE. 

 

What is the result of this?

 

Your score is never done until the moment of recording (if recording with the orchestra - we know even that is going away as more and more people are using syths.)

 

So this is why some of the name composers might use additional composers - 

 

JNH will write the cue. Then revise it. Then revise it again. And again. And again. And again. And again - the 9th time. 10th time. 11th time. 15th time.

 

There will come a time when he would be like - and very legitimately - I HAVE FUCKING DONE MY WORK. THIS ISN'T WORTH MY TIME OR DIGNITY ANYMORE. Here additional composer - the cue is 90% there. The director can't stop fiddling with the scene. For versions 16 through 40 - you make the adjustments - which can be taking notes off here, adding few there, lowering brass here because the Sound VFX guy wants his bullet sound, increasing tempo here because the cut is sooner. 

 

This is the pure minutiae of it. And many composers have done this work too - painstakingly. JNH himself wrote the main title of Fantastic Beasts 41 times.

 

But can you blame him if he feels - that on Hunger Games 4, cue 58, version 27 - he feels. That's it. I am giving this to an assistant to adjust. 

 

I should hasten to add, in this case - it would still be JNH's work. But in Zimmer's case - the entire cue is assigned to the additional composer. It is almost a reverse relationship. The additional composer writes first and then Zimmer comes in and makes adjustments. In that case - the credit should go to the additional composer for the cue - he fucking wrote it. 

It is truly a sorry business now - film and music scoring. We know the sheer reckless horrifying abandon these large 300 million dollar movies work on - fiddling till the last second. No good film scoring is possible due to such circumstances and the monster of additional composers is as much of the result of the director's schizophrenia as it is of the composers's laziness and lack of talent.

Good description. At reading your text I was thinking, If even "writing" music is here still an appropriate term. This seems to be no longer a creative writing process than something that would be better called "illustrative construction" or "musical patching".

[Andy 4,087]

Quote

Two years ago, Nadia Wheaton, a composer and music-production coordinator, posted a soul-baring account on her website of her frustrations as an aspiring Hollywood film scorer. Despite some notable successes, she found herself making painful budget decisions, such as whether to spend money on gas or on food. She wrote about the specter of homelessness and about studio assistants being paid $12 an hour with no overtime. “It felt like some of our idols were just there to exploit new talent,” she wrote. Wheaton ultimately left Hollywood and turned her focus toward video game music.

 

This is heartbreaking.  You have people who grew up inspired by Williams, Barry, Goldsmith, etc. and went to music school with their dream.  Paid their dues.  Got their break.  Only to find it was all a lie, and film music is as boxed in and creatively shackled by committee as the films themselves.  I'm not a gamer, so I'll never have a connection to video game music.  So sad to find out that new talent is flocking there.

 

I'm so thankful to have grown up, like Lukas Kendall, and many here, in a sort of golden age of films and film music.

 

If anything, this article helps validate why I'd rather modern films spot more sparingly, and dial back on the score.  Silence and sound design balanced with punctual, meaningful cues would be better than the labors of people working as if they're in a factory to smear taiko drums all over everything.

[Mephariel 451]

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Yep - they might go - writing an entire score alone????? - are you nuts??? - who does that??? - can you imagine playing football with a team of one??? - no you can't because no one does that. 

 

For some of these additional composers, composing a film score is a collaborative project. And they will never comprehend the desire to do it alone.

 

And there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, filmmaking in general is a collaborative process. From acting to writing to shooting, etc.

 

Why would you go alone and be less competitive? You said it yourself. You don't play football alone. Or you can... you just won't win.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

8 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

And there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, filmmaking in general is a collaborative process. From acting to writing to shooting, etc.

 

Why would you go alone and be less competitive? You said it yourself. You don't play football alone. Or you can... you just won't win.

 

Depends upon whether you think music composition (for film or otherwise) is a game of football or tennis. I happen to think it is tennis.

[Mephariel 451]

12 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Depends upon whether you think music composition (for film or otherwise) is a game of football or tennis. I happen to think it is tennis.

 

Tennis isn't competitive with Football, Basketball, Hockey, and Baseball. At least not in America (or in this case, Hollywood).

 

You can play Tennis. You just won't be a part of the big boys.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

 

What is depressing for me is that the job of the person credited as the main composer was, according to the article, nothing more than tell what kind of cue he wants for this scene and let the additional composer do all the hardwork. 

 

Wasnt there recently some talk about Horner doing just that?

 

He hasnt been mentioned here yet.

[Bespin 8,480]

I don’t think Horner ever needed ghostwriters. When he was lacking inspiration, he drew from his past work!

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

At the end of the day, all that matters to me is that I feel nothing but either indifference or contempt for 95% of film music written today.  I have no idea if that is because of the proliferation of "The Zimmer Process", or digital editing, or bureaucratization of music approvals, or (and I must allow for this possibility) simply the ossification of my own tastes.  Probably a combination.  But I do wish movies were getting scores I liked....

[Disco Stu 15,495]

 

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Wasnt there recently some talk about Horner doing just that?

 

He hasnt been mentioned here yet.

 

He was slaughtered for it ca. 5 million times here and on FSM, so cut him some slack here. We also don't need to single out old Newman or all the other ancient examples that are of a completely different nature - during the old studio system, highly accomplished composers/arrangers helped out their likewise supremely gifted bosses (like Newman), whose job it was to delegate the musical chores of movies or cues within scores to others to get the job done in time. There was no secret about it.

 

As for Horner, during a short phase of his career, ca. 1991 - 1995, he overbooked himself to the extent that he farmed out stuff he didn't care for to highly accomplished composers/arrangers like himself. And of course, with Horner the problem of not giving credit went far beyond not crediting Davis or Pasatieri, he neither did for Britten nor Prokoviev. Crediting just wasn't his. thing, i guess.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

3 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

 

What does the music librarian do?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, Jurassic Shark said:

 

What does the music librarian do?

 

Here's an interview with Mark Graham for your reading pleasure

https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/may-the-fourth-spotlight-on-joann-kane-music/

[Tom 4,639]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

What does the music librarian do?

See the real answer above:

 

[Richard Penna 3,673]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Wasnt there recently some talk about Horner doing just that?

 

He hasnt been mentioned here yet.

 

You're probably talking about Troy:

 

 

 

I have no issue at all with the situation as TheUlyssesian describes. The composer writes the score, or the bulk of it, and gets some help to change/finesse/adjust things as the film changes.

 

The problem comes when the majority of the music literally has not been composed by the guy named on the cover, and this does not immediately lead me into the typical Zimmer bashing. As soon as I read this thread, I immediately thought of McCreary - the guy does so many TV shows and movies, and he's mentioned his 'team' (plus some cues on another composer's website) so we know the now obvious fact that he gets lots of help. To what extent this means, for example, that the Walking Dead album was composed by someone else, is interesting.

 

Then I think about Dante's Peak, where JNH and his orchestrators are credited some some cues, primarily because it was a very rushed scoring process. Is it possible that there were further ghost composers who aren't even credited in the Varese release? I hope not. I should emphasize that I don't mean 'hope not' in the sense of disappointment that a composer I like didn't write some nice cues, but in a hypothetical scenario where some other composer wrote the music and we don't hear their name.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

32 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

He was slaughtered for it ca. 5 million times here and on FSM, so cut him some slack here. 

Sounds like poor giacchino then.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

29 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Here's an interview with Mark Graham for your reading pleasure

https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/may-the-fourth-spotlight-on-joann-kane-music/

 

Interesting read. I was wondering what the music librarian does as opposed to the music preparation service. So I guess the latter just xeroxes the parts. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

7 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Interesting read. I was wondering what the music librarian does as opposed to the music preparation service. So I guess the latter just xeroxes the parts. 

 

His role as Music Librarian for JKMS is to head up the music preparation team: lead the team responsible for engraving, creating parts, and organizing it all for storage in their library.

 

The music department credits I posted above were from The Post, here's BFG and TFA for comparison

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

6 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

His role as Music Librarian for JKMS

 

Yeah, I got it that he works at JKMS. Is the music preparation service usually listed in the booklets for non-JW soundtracks as well, or is this JW being a nice chap?

[Jay 37,300]

Sandy DeCrescent vs Sandy De Crescent

Jo Ann Kane Music Service vs JoAnn Kane Music Services

 

who proofreads these things!?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

Sandy DeCrescent vs Sandy De Crescent

Jo Ann Kane Music Service vs JoAnn Kane Music Services

 

who proofreads these things!?

 

Are you setting us up to dunk on you?  

[WampaRat 1,105]

3 hours ago, Bespin said:

And the Oscar goes to... a composer who's composing credits are transparent and clear.

I’m feeling this will impact Zimmer getting the gold for Dune. It’s gonna be Greenwood now for sure.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, WampaRat said:

I’m feeling this will impact Zimmer getting the gold for Dune. It’s gonna be Greenwood now for sure.

 

Maybe the piece was a plant by Greenwood's team!

[WampaRat 1,105]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Maybe the piece was a plant by Greenwood's team!

The plot thickens!!!

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

2 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

I’m feeling this will impact Zimmer getting the gold for Dune. It’s gonna be Greenwood now for sure.

 

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Maybe the piece was a plant by Greenwood's team!

 

Not gonna matter an iota.

 

It's like the Harvey Weinstein thing. EVERYBODY IN HOLLYWOOD KNOWS. EVERYONE. TO THE LAST PERSON.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

1 minute ago, WampaRat said:

The plot thickens!!!

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

18 hours ago, Mephariel said:

I am glad Kramer said what he said. Literally everyone in Hollywood is using ghostwriters.

 

No. He literally said not everyone does it, but almost everyone.

32 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Maybe the piece was a plant by Greenwood's team!

 

They're called Radiohead.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

13 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

So Giacchino is the New evil now, if i read the thread correctly?

 

No, just people here shitting on Gia as usual.  I don't believe he's even mentioned in the article at all, at least not in a bad light.

[Bespin 8,480]

I just have one thing to say: If Giacchino use ghostwriters, I hope he doesn't pay them too much, because they are not very talented!