Where is the thematic identity in recent film scores?

[filmmusic 1,826]

I have listened to 20-30 drama scores for recent movies (last decade - and I don't mean only Hollywood ones) in the past few weeks, and whereas there is much care for orchestration and texture, I don't see any strong thematic identity, meaning easily remembered themes with a beginning a middle and an end, but not simplistic ones.

If there are themes (and not small motifs or textures), they are very simple lines just being there for the sake of harmony.

I guess Williams's and Goldsmith's excel in that field is not accidental.

Maybe action and fantasy movies have one (a thematic identity I mean)? I don't know, I haven't listened to any.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Am I the only one that doesn't see it?

[Bellosh 3,413]

one of the main reasons why I don't listen or even bother to check out newer scores.

 

so many are just incredibly uninteresting to me, thematically.

[Andy 4,119]

I had only marginal interest in John Barry until recently.  His long lined melodies are the exact opposite of what you're describing, and I'm enjoying his methods of doing his own thing rather than synch points in the action.  I think the modern vacuum you're commenting on has made this type of melody even more appealing to me such that I am craving it and searching out past works I might have ignored.

[GerateWohl 4,356]

To bring a positive example, I found, when I listened to Agengers Endgame, that Alan Silvstri developed for the Avengers series a quite good repertoire of strong themes. 

 

Apart from that, this texture and sound over strong melodies and themes is a development that you can see as well in Pop and Rock music. Switch on the radio and look for a strong melody in a pop or rock song from the past ten years. Of course they exist, but you really have to search for it like for a needle in the haystack.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

.....

[JNHFan2000 2,957]

I think it's not fair to say that score with thematic identities don't excist anymore.

 

Just a few examples from the last 4 years:

Masters Of The Universe: Revelation - Bear McCreary

Jungle Cruise - James Newton Howard

Venom: Let There Be Carnage - Marco Beltrami

The Last Duel - Harry Gregson-Williams

The King's Man - Matthew Margeson & Dominic Lewis

Animal Crackers - Bear McCreary

Enola Holmes - Daniel Pemberton

Wonder Woman 1984 - Hans Zimmer

How To Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World - John Powell

Godzilla: King Of The Monsters - Bear McCreary

Marriage Story - Randy Newman

Black Panther - Ludwig Göransson

The Mummy - Brian Tyler

Outlander series - Bear McCreary

 

I might have a different idea of scores with a thematic identity, but it is not gone in my opinion.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

There were too many themes, they had to cut a few.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

" Where is the melody"

   - Richard Strauss upon hearing Claude Debussy's music

[Bespin 8,480]

Not every movie needs 6 different themes.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

3 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Not every movie needs 6 different themes.

Yeah , Johnny!

😉

[Andy 4,119]

6 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Not every movie needs 6 different themes.

 

No, but just one theme that goes somewhere and resolves in a satisfying way can work wonderfully,  like the versatile Last Starfighter theme by Craig Safan.  (Although there are a few other minor themes in that film)

[Bespin 8,480]

Some directors pay to have a "non-John Williams-like score".

[Andy 4,119]

That's very true.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

" I'm the director! You will NOT upstage me!"

[Andy 4,119]

How many themes in Superman The Movie?  

 

Whatever it is, that's how many themes every score should have.

[Edmilson 7,433]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

Some directors pay to have a "non-John Williams-like score".

Nolan, Villeneuve, Snyder, Greengrass and a lot of indie directors prefer their scores as far from Williams as possible.

[bored 309]

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

" Where is the melody"

   - Richard Strauss upon hearing Claude Debussy's music

 

You're going to find a way to sneak in a Debussy reference on every discussion about melody aren't you? 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

1 hour ago, superultramegaa said:

 

You're going to find a way to sneak in a Debussy reference on every discussion about melody aren't you? 

If i can.

😎

 

 

I.miss James Horner. Even if ' his' themes weren't always HIS😣

they were memorable.

 

For Superultra:

Bernard Herrmann was criticized for not writing themes or melodies.

[Groovygoth666 663]

Was thinking about this the other day, outside of Marvel and Star Wars stuff Disney has been pumping out, there doesn't seem to be a lot of movies from the last few years with a stand out theme. Not every film needs multiple themes but the majority of non franchise film's really seem to be lacking any thematic music, or at least anything that really gets discussed. But then again I haven't seen many non franchise film's from the last few years so could just be projecting!

[bored 309]

1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

For Superultra:

Bernard Herrmann was criticized for not writing themes or melodies.

 

Those critics must have had lunch with the same people who nominated The Shining (1980) for razzies. 

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

 

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

I.miss James Horner. Even if ' his' themes weren't always HIS 😣 

they were memorable.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hedji said:

I had only marginal interest in John Barry until recently.  His long lined melodies are the exact opposite of what you're describing, and I'm enjoying his methods of doing his own thing rather than synch points in the action.  I think the modern vacuum you're commenting on has made this type of melody even more appealing to me such that I am craving it and searching out past works I might have ignored.

 

I'm a member a little more extreme into melody than most. Got to love Uematsu, Kondo, narrative settings that are just begging for long characteristic melodies. It's harder to find this in movies. Not much of a gamer either, just always listen to game music.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I still can't believe adults ask for autographs!

 

" Oh Mr Horner, I'm you're biggest fan!

Will you please sign my LLL limited edition TITANIC box set"?

😒

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

8 hours ago, Bespin said:

Not every movie needs 6 different themes.

 

Sometimes, five is sufficient.

[A24 4,331]

New generations, different tastes. Themes or melodies are associated with "That's the old school music my parents like." Each generation needs its own identity.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

Soon, they'll drop harmony and rhythm as well.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

 

[toothless 963]

A ton of reasons:

 

• More directors like when the music is barely there. Their movie should work without it.

 

• Sound design-y scores are way easier to cut, past (and butcher) as the movie is getting re cut infinitely.

 

• There is a trend of such scores.

 

• It sometimes requires less musicians in an orchestra.

 

•etc

[GerateWohl 4,356]

I heard this multiple times before. Modern composers would be able to write brillant remarkable themes instantly, but they are asked by directors and producers not to do so. That is why they don't. 

Something in me resists to believe that.

 

I would rather believe a statement like "Under these lousy working conditions with that little payment I am not willing to waste my best musical ideas."

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Elfman probably saves his best themes for his concert works.....

[Mephariel 451]

14 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I heard this multiple times before. Modern composers would be able to write brillant remarkable themes instantly, but they are asked by directors and producers not to do so. That is why they don't. 

Something in me resists to believe that.

 

I would rather believe a statement like "Under these lousy working conditions with that little payment I am not willing to waste my best musical ideas."

 

Neither one is true. I don't think there are that many composers who can write brilliant themes and I don't think conditions has anything to do with it. I think:

 

1. Art directors prefer their movies to ooze intellectualism and that means unconventional music. 

2. Action movies are now dominated by CGI and superhuman feats and having music in action scenes are becoming less and less important to reel in the audience. I can't count how many of these superhero films and sci-fi epics where the music is buried in the mix.

3. Composers just want to do something different to create their own voice. 

 

With that said, there are still plenty of themes left in Hollywood and outside of it.

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I predict a resurgence in interest of John Barry!

[GerateWohl 4,356]

35 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

3. Composers just want to do something different to create their own voice. 

Yes. There are so many composers writing and having written good music. I do something different than that.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

29 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Yes. There are so many composers writing and having written good music. I do something different than that.

 

 

Nah, you didn't.

[Mephariel 451]

43 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Yes. There are so many composers writing and having written good music. I do something different than that.

 

 

Yeah, that is how you break into the industry because "good" music is dictated by the market. You carve your own lane. Daniel Pemberton is a good example. I never understand his music and frankly, I rarely have any of his scores in the top 10 of my list each year. His music is so far from the 90s titans like Williams and Horner. But I understand why he has appeal. His music is very unique to him, but also doesn't have that conventional structure. He clearly has good musical foundation, so a prospect director wouldn't be stuck with a Mica Levi type score. Pemberton has the right combination of being eccentric, but accessible. That puts him in a great position to score all types of films. In the past five years, he worked with Ridley Scott, Aaron Sorkin, and done art films like Steve Jobs. But his also doing animated films like Spider-Man. Meanwhile, you have an artist like George Kallis, who can write a sweeping orchestral piece as good as anyone and yet, he is still waiting for his breakout moment. 

 

Film music no different than any other product. After decades and decades, everything is saturated. Everyone loves ramen, but what if your one is organic? Or Mexican inspired? There are a lot of traditionally "good" composers and "good" sound designers these days. Somewhere between those two pillars is probably where a new composer's lane resides.  

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Steve Jobs is not an art film. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Well, whatever it is, it's clearly Pemberton's best score.

[Brónach 1,302]

I like several scores of him

[Andy 4,119]

5 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

I predict a resurgence in interest of John Barry!

 

20 hours ago, Hedji said:

I had only marginal interest in John Barry until recently.  His long lined melodies are the exact opposite of what you're describing, and I'm enjoying his methods of doing his own thing rather than synch points in the action.  I think the modern vacuum you're commenting on has made this type of melody even more appealing to me such that I am craving it and searching out past works I might have ignored.

 

[bored 309]

6 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I would rather believe a statement like "Under these lousy working conditions with that little payment I am not willing to waste my best musical ideas."

 

I tend to believe this a bit more as well. You can kind of hear when a composer doesn't really give a shit about the project they're writing for at times. Examples that sound this way to me are Steve Jablonsky's score for Battleship, or Zimmer in Pirates 4, where his new material felt uninspired, and most of the score was a repeat of other tracks from the series. 

 

Though sometimes they do try hard despite their disinterest in the film. To go back to the previous two examples, Jablonsky turned in a fairly decent monster movie score for D-War / Dragon Wars, despite his hinting in interviews that he thought it was a bad movie, and I recall Zimmer encouraging his crew to have some fun with a score to a film none of them really believed in. It might have been King Arthur, but I don't know for sure. 

[filmmusic 1,826]

On 05/03/2022 at 11:17 PM, JNHFan2000 said:

I think it's not fair to say that score with thematic identities don't excist anymore.

 

Just a few examples from the last 4 years:

Masters Of The Universe: Revelation - Bear McCreary

Jungle Cruise - James Newton Howard

Venom: Let There Be Carnage - Marco Beltrami

The Last Duel - Harry Gregson-Williams

The King's Man - Matthew Margeson & Dominic Lewis

Animal Crackers - Bear McCreary

Enola Holmes - Daniel Pemberton

Wonder Woman 1984 - Hans Zimmer

How To Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World - John Powell

Godzilla: King Of The Monsters - Bear McCreary

Marriage Story - Randy Newman

Black Panther - Ludwig Göransson

The Mummy - Brian Tyler

Outlander series - Bear McCreary

 

I might have a different idea of scores with a thematic identity, but it is not gone in my opinion.

So, continuing to listening to recent scores, even scores that are considered good, I still can't find any "strong" themes.

I have not listened to ANY of the scores of the above list though.

Could you possibly post a couple of youtube videos with timestamps, on where the themes are?

I'm curious to see, if I can find that which I seek. Themes that can stand next to themes of Williams, Goldsmith, Barry etc.

[Thor 7,493]

It depends on how extensive you search. Every year, I  sample/listen to between 1500-2000 new scores, and find plenty of scores that would fit your bill, Konstantinos. But oftentimes, you have to look beyond the true and tired, i.e. the big blockbusters or the big "talking point" scores. I know, it's a lot of work, but it can ultimately be quite rewarding. Right now, for example, I'm listening to one of my runner-ups for the 2022 'best of' list, Manuel Riveiro's LIVE IS LIFE, which sounds like a blast from the melodic 90s.

[Jay 37,346]

You don't heard big strong themes in the How To Train Your Dragon scores?

[JNHFan2000 2,957]

This is a playlist with suites of dkfferent themes from Masters Of The Universe.

 

Just one example. I don't really have the time right now to do a more exstensive search.

But How To Train Your Dragon 3 has a suite called "The Hidden World Suite" with the 3 new primary themes for the film.

Or go listen to the theme suites from The Rings Of Power.

 

Just a few options. And if you can't find any memorable or strong themes in there, I guess that is kinda on you and you should stick with score from the 20th century.

[filmmusic 1,826]

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

You don't heard big strong themes in the How To Train Your Dragon scores?

I have seen only the first movie, and I haven't heard the score (or the sequels scores) outside of that.

I don't remember anything though...

25 minutes ago, Thor said:

and find plenty of scores that would fit your bill, Konstantinos

Really? I'm listening to scores too outside of the Hollywood blockbusters (after all, I'm mostly interested in dramas), but I hear more minimalistic thematic ideas, not themes based on the classical form.

Anyway, the last strong theme I can remember is the Korzeniowski theme for A Single Man (2009).

[Thor 7,493]

8 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Really? I'm listening to scores too outside of the Hollywood blockbusters (after all, I'm mostly interested in dramas), but I hear more minimalistic thematic ideas, not themes based on the classical form.

Anyway, the last strong theme I can remember is the Korzeniowski theme for A Single Man (2009).

 

I can give you many examples. Take a listen to the score I mentioned in my last post, for example. But first, I need to chart exactly what your preferences are; I've been wanting to do that for a while. And then I can recommend from there.

[Jay 37,346]

11 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

I have seen only the first movie, and I haven't heard the score (or the sequels scores) outside of that.

I don't remember anything though...

 

The opening cue from the first film alone is full of strong memorable themes

 

 

 

 

[filmmusic 1,826]

39 minutes ago, Thor said:

Take a listen to the score I mentioned in my last post, for example.

I listened to the whole score. I didn't find what I was looking for.

[JNHFan2000 2,957]

If you name A Single Man as the last score with a strong theme for you, you might want to check out otger scores by Korzeniowski. Romeo & Juliet & Penny Dreadful.

[filmmusic 1,826]

A just quick very basic list of 80s-90s themes that I consider great:

 

John Williams:

90% of his themes (and I don't mean only main themes) 

 

Jerry Goldsmith:

main themes from

Supergirl, Star Trek, Russia House, First Blood, Poltergeist, Omen (Ave Satani)(Oops, this is a 70s film), King Solomon's Mines, Basic instinct, Chinatown (same here, 70s film), Total Recall

 

James Horner:

Love theme from Braveheart, American Tail theme, Willow theme,  Krull

I'm sure there are others, can't pinpoint them right now

 

John Barry:

John Dunbar theme, Out of Africa

 

Elmer Bernstein:

Age of Innocence

 

Alan Silvestri:

Who framed Roger Rabbit (Valiant & Valiant), Back to the future, The Bodyguard theme

 

Patrick Doyle:

Love theme from Frankenstein, Estella's theme from Great Expectations

 

George Fenton:

Shadowlands theme

 

Randy Newman:

Avalon theme

 

Danny Elfman:

Batman theme, Catwoman theme, Penguin's theme, Sommersby, Edward Scissorshands

 

Basil Poledouris:

Conan the barbarian love theme, Riders of Doom

 

Andrea Morricone:

Love theme from Cinema Paradiso

 

Ennio Morricone:

Cinema Paradiso theme, Sicilian Clan theme, Metello, Gabriel's oboe from The Mission

 

Vangelis:

1492 theme

 

Gabriel Yared:

English Patient theme, Camile Claudel love theme

 

Jean Claude Petit:

Cyrano theme

 

Ryuichi Sakamoto:

Sheltering Sky theme, Wuthering Heights theme, Last Emperor theme, Little Buddha main theme

 

Christopher Young:

Murder in the First theme

 

Joe Hisaishi:

Princess Mononoke theme

 

I hope you can get an idea what I'm looking for in recent film scores.

 

[LSH 968]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

You don't heard big strong themes in the How To Train Your Dragon scores?

 

Let's face it, pretty much everything Powell does is very strong thematically.