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HOUSE OF THE DRAGON


Jay

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Season 2 had:

 

270 shooting days, 2500 crew members, 9000 extras, eight visual effects houses in seven countries, 2600 arrows, 2000 pairs of boots, 114 wigs, and 33 gallons of blood

 

https://www.indiewire.com/news/events/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-new-york-premiere-1235012117/

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10 hours ago, Jay said:

I've been listening to TWO recap podcasts for this show (well, one recap podcast and one talking about book to show difference for each episode without spoiling beyond the first season) and am SO HYPED for season 2.  I'm actually super tempted to re-watch season 1 before it starts and write about each episode, but who knows if I'll actually have time for that.


Who's your team, Jay?

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Absolutely Team Black.  Team Green, Otto especially, can pound sand

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Plus its what Viserys wanted.  The fact that she had bastard children is irrelevant to the fact that she should be on the throne right now

 

Rhaenys should have torched the entirely of team green on that stage when she had the chance

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I think its hard to be on Team Green watching the show.  My understanding is that it is more even in the book, but the show has basically made Team Black the good guys and Team Green the bad guys. At least in season 1.

 

Of course, there's awful people on both sides

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Yeah, I think the book doesn't take sides and tries to be a bit more objective, but the show is clear about who we should root for. I mean, I can understand and connect with some of the characters from team green, particularly Alicent, but I'm team black all the way, as it's what good old Viserys wanted from the very beginning of the show.

 

And Daemon is such a complex and interesting character that is hard not to stand on his side, even if he does some truly terrible things.

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On 5/6/2024 at 10:55 AM, Jay said:

Of course, there's awful people on both sides

 

And heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.

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41 minutes ago, #SnowyVernalSpringsEternal said:

Season 1 of House Of The Dragon is probably the best season of Game Of Thrones there's been so far.

It's great but I think I prefer GoT season 1 though... But HotD 1 is very close, precisely because the writers were able to capture what made Martin's stories so entertaining and engaging.

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Great news !

 

IIRC Condal said season 3 will complete the dance of dragons story

 

EDIT: Actually I just heard on a podcast that he planned it to be 4 seasons of 10 episodes each, but now due to budget considerings seasons 2 and 3 will be 8 episodes each and the overall story will now take 5 seasons to tell.  Kinda surprised by that.

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I just finished rewatching the whole first season and am again super impressed. It’s a great show which takes its time to introduce the characters and their motivations before the conflict starts properly. The score is a big part of what makes the show so good as the rich thematic catalogue of themes underlines and clarifies broader themes of the story without dialogue having to spell it out. furthermore, the use of both the “main”themes and also the non character or location based themes such as the solitude theme or the Silent Sisters themes help set the mood in such a great way and highlights the importance of thematic scoring in film and TV.
 

It’s really impressive how well they managed to cast all the characters, including both the young and the old cast. The switch from young Rhaenyra and alicent to their older counterparts was seamless (even more so during the rewatch) and everybody does a great job. Especially enjoyed some performances of the smaller characters like Lyonel Strong, see Harwin Strong, Mysaria, Harlena, Lord Beesbury, Vaemond and Laena Velaryon.

 

The final action scene of the season with Lucerys on Arrax being chased by Aemond on Vhagar was as impressive on second watch and that shot of the shadow of Vhagar appearing in the sky above Arrax is so fucking cool (and scary). Love the subtlety of the storytelling where Aemond is responsible for what happens, by taunting and demanding one of Luke’s eyes and chasing him in the storm but ultimately briefly loosing control of his dragon. The scene is also underscored with the Dance of Dragons theme, which I hope will be used more in S2 as it has been teased throughout S1 in quite a few dragon related sequences!
 

As a book reader, I was briefly worried when it was announced that HBO was doing successor shows to GOT but it seems that HBO knows what works and what doesn’t and have Martin’s involvement as well. they struck gold with Ryan Condal as showrunner and head writer and I hope the departure of Miguel Sapochnik won’t affect the upcoming seasons (as he has been responsible for a lot of the practical and visual aspects of the show which they can now continue to build on). Another GOT legend, Alan Taylor is directing episodes in S2!

 

HBO’s other upcoming GOT show, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms seems like a great opportunity to show another aspect of Westeros, where the focus lies less on the politics and conflicts of the great houses and more on smaller stories set against the backdrop of these political games and in this case the Blackfyre Rebellions. If HBO somehow can manage to include the blackfyre storyline in this show, it would be interesting. I believe HBO can pull it off with the right people in charge. Overall the approach taken with the successor shows (so far) has been perfect!

 

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On 13/6/2024 at 6:57 PM, Jay said:

Great news !

 

IIRC Condal said season 3 will complete the dance of dragons story

 

EDIT: Actually I just heard on a podcast that he planned it to be 4 seasons of 10 episodes each, but now due to budget considerings seasons 2 and 3 will be 8 episodes each and the overall story will now take 5 seasons to tell.  Kinda surprised by that.

This is interesting new info. So 10+8+8+8+8 would mean 42 episodes in 5 seasons vs 40 episodes in 4 seasons (as seems to have been the original plan).

We get almost the same amount of episodes but with a different season structure plus two more episodes. I won't complain as this decision was also made with GRRM's input when they reshuffled the season structure between S1 and S2's production. I do think this will result in way more wait for the fans though for subsequent seasons but maybe HBO like to have more seasons going into the future so they can alternate between HOTD and AKOTSK going forward.

 

Potentially if each HOTD season takes 2 years to make, the release structure could look like this:

2024: House of the Dragon S2

2025: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S1

2026: House of the Dragon S3

2027: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S2

2028: House of the Dragon S4

2029: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S3

2030: House of the Dragon S5

2031: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S4

 

By this point they might either continue HOTD by moving forwards or backwards in time to do Blackfyre Rebellions or Aegon's Conquest leading towards the reign of Jaeherys the Conciliator (who was seen in the prologue of HOTDs1). Aegon's Conquest has also been thought of as it's own show so HBO can go a number of ways at this point as the material is available from GRRM.

 

GRRM has also said that he has the outlines of 9 Knight of the Seven Kingdoms stories (though only 3 are released at this point) taking place during the Blackfyre Rebellions and the final one taking place at Summerhall (book readers know what this is about but won't spoil it here). So either HBO include the Blackfyre Rebellions storyline in some way in the AKOTSK show, thus showing it from a slightly different perspective than focusing only on the royals, which leaves them free to make a new show about Aegon's Conquest which then would run in parallel to later seasons of AKOTSK.

 

If they do this, a potential release schedule could look like this:

 

2032: Aegon's Conquest S1

2033: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S5

2034: Aegon's Conquest S2

2035: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S6

2036: Aegon's Conquest S3

2037: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms S7

2038: Aegon's Conquest S4

etc

 

Now I have no idea what the plans are from HBO and GRRM as other successor shows, such as 10 000 Ships and Nine Voyages are also being discussed (though not greenlit) so it might look very different and they might want to do Blackfyre as a potential HOTDs6 to run forwards in time towards Robert's Rebellion, but this is at least a potential way of doing things. A lot also depends on GRRM's output in regard to AKOTSK stories. He might have already written a few but might not have released them because of potential spoilers for Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring (relating to a possible Targ pretender) and he might also haver tough versions of these stories which could potentially be developed further by the writers of the AKOTSK show depending on what happens.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Jay said:

 

 

House of the Dragon 1x08 The Lord of the Tides (rewatch)

 

Boy, this is probably one of the best episodes of the whole season, eh?   If Paddy Constantine didn't win all the awards for this performance, he should have.  

 

 

A truly fantastic performance. 

And quite extreme. Vyseris ages far horrible than anyone in Westeros. And was a whispering shell of a man at the end. 

 

Its an excellent example of how monarchy as a power system functioned. No one wanted to kill him. But the moment he died things kicked off. *Spoilers*

 

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I'm still angry that Paddy Considine was completely shut out of the awards!!

He 100% deserved that Emmy for Supporting Actor. His performance was brilliant. Probably the best given in either GoT or HotD

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House of the Dragon 1x09 The Green Council (rewatch)

 

What a thrilling episode!  For me, the highlights are all the scenes with Otto and Alicent (I mean the ones that they share together, and all their other scenes too).  The episode really shows how easily things could have gone different than they do in a lot of different ways, but how mostly it is the specific decisions that each of them make that got us to where we do go.

 

I believe Alicent when she says she believes Viserys changed his mind and wants Aegon on the throne;  I don't think she's fooling herself at all.  But I love that her version of this includes completely sparing Rhaenyra and her family and other considerations....while Otto has a very different plan in mind.  And I love that him and the others have been planning this without Alicent, it's absolutely makes so much sense. Alicent shouldn't have been so shocked by this reveal!  I think the only thing Otto hadn't accounted for was that Ser Harrold wouldn't be on board, nor that Erryck would turn as well. 

 

I'm still not quite sure how invested I'm supposed to be in the race between whether Alicent's side (Aemond and Criston) or Otto's side (Erryk and Arryk) find Aegon first; Was it just that Alicent thinks talking to Aegon first will be what spares Rhaenyra's life?  Because by the end of the episode I get the impression that Aegon will do whatever he wants regardless of what anyone says.  In fact I was really impressed by Aegon's character arc this episode.  The way he goes from not wanting it, not wanting it, not wanting it, to turning around when he hears the crowd chanting his name is brililant.  Though it technically is somewhat abrupt, it doesn't feel unearned, it makes perfect sense with the way they've categorized him throughout the season.  He doesn't want to study and do the boring parts of ruling, but he sure seems to like being looked up to by everyone.

 

Another fun moment is when he's in the carriage car with Alicent and she gives him Viserys' dagger (incidentally, such a sad moment as we know the importance of the dagger and the message on it, but now its in the hands of people that will eventually land it in Joffrey Baratheon's, yikes).  Anyways, when he asks her "do you love me?" and Alicent replies "You imbecile..." and it cuts away before we see the rest of her sentence is great.  Was it "... of course I do" or "... it doesn't matter what I think" or "... just do as you're told" or something else?  I love that it's left ambiguous.

 

So is this the end of Mysaria's arc?  She seemed to get Otto to agree to stop the fighting bits (although he only says "I'll look into it" so.... who knows), but then Larys seemingly has her house burned down.  But do we know for sure she was inside?  Hmm.

 

It was so clever to focus this entire episode on just the Green side of things.  It makes sense because they wouldn't know what Rhenyra is up to, not she them.  And it keeps the narrative focused, which works out great.  The coronation at the end is a really good scene too.  We have another scene that is simply a person walking from one side of the room to another, but does it give completely different feels that Viserys walking to the iron throne for the final time.  Rhaenys' arrival on Melys remains the sort of only plot point of the whole first season that I still feel can really be picked at.  It absolutely makes for an exciting scene, even the second time through I was so impressed with the spectacle of it all.   But its so weird that the ways its done, she kills a bunch of random innocent people, but no one on stage, says nothing, and flies away.  Seems like she could have flown away without revealing herself or killing anyway.  I dunno.

 

Onto the finale and then the premiere tonight!

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27 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

Pretty cool!

 

 

Not large enough though 😂 that’s not even Arrax’s size haha

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Avoided spoilers for two years and binged Season 1 this week in preparation for tonight.

 

I enjoyed it although some of the time jumps left me a bit lost at points.

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House of the Dragon 1x10 The Black Queen (rewatch)

 

This is an awesome season finale.  My memory was that it went back in time a bit and showed the events of the prior episode but from the Black's perspective, but it's much cooler that it starts with Rahenys landing at Dragonstone right after the end of the last episode and goes from there.  The only strange part about that, though, is that in the last episode, before Viserys died, Alicent and Rhaenyra were back to being friends, it seemed, and Rhaenyra told Alicent that she'd fly back on her dragon the next day after seeing her family home.  Well now we've jumped to the next day after that and she's still at Dragonstone, so what happened to that promise?  Hmmm.

 

The third on-screen birth of the season is just as as intense as the others, and a nice parallel to the first episode; I also liked a later parallel to the second episode when Rhaenyra shows up on her dragon on the bridge when Otto is delegating with Daemon.  Otto's terms are sound, logical, and almost everyone would say generous.  Not that I think anyone on team Black should take them!  But you can't say they didn't make their best and a very generous offer.  I loved the other call back to the early episodes, with the page out of the book that young Alicent and Rhaenyra were studying.  It can be as a message from Alicent to hope for peace, but I dunno it kinda feels the opposite to me: very manipulative to get what Alicent wants.  I could not really tell what Rhaenyra thinks.

 

I love that Erryk didn't just help Rhaenys escape, but is now a full on team Black member.  The fact that he thought to grab Viserys' crown before leaving is SO awesome - too bad he didn't get that dagger too!  Rhaenyra's crowning ceremony was really good, and I loved the little tough that Rhaenys didn't bow yet.  Although, that makes it a little strange to me that they'd let her into their council room.... it doesn't matter by episode's end, since once Corlys is back they fully pledge themselves to her side, but I wish just a little more time was spent on them debating things, especially in light that they lost both of their children after they were involved with Daemon or Rhaenyra.  At one point in their talk Corlys reminds Rhaenys that Rhaenyra was complicit in Laenor's death (if they she wasn't), and I thought Rhaenys would say something like "she told me she was not involved, and I believed her" but she just... doesn't.  A hope a lot is made early next season about how big of an advantage it is for the Blacks to have the navy on their side.

 

Speaking of war preparations, the painted table at Dragonstone is sooooooo cool!  I loved how it looks with the fire underneath, and hope that they use this for the opening credits of season 2 instead of the blood flow thing they used this season that never had any impact on me.  I also think the episode did a good job of laying out which houses are on which side and which need to be persuaded to pick a side.  One curious bit of the season 2 trailer for me was a little scene they show where Rhaenyra is asking Daemon where his loyalties lie (or something like that) which I found intriguing.... but rewatching this episode I was reminded that the seeds for that are already planted here.  Throughout the episode you can see Daemon wants some war and to be an active participant in it.  He was set to fly somewhere to talk to someone before Rhaenyra had Jace come into the council room and remind him that she doesn't want anyone going anywhere; He wanted to kill Otto on the bridge; when Rhaenyra tells him that she will not land the first blow, he tells her that in his view, the Greens already have done so.  But one of the most interesing parts is when Rhaenyra learns that Viserys never told Daemon about Aegon's dream. I loved his response about how Viserys put too much stock into dreams and portents and prophecies since he had nothing else to make his reign more important.  But I wish Rhaenyra then took it one step further and said something like "it's not just words.  There is a magic dagger that reveals the prophecy when put into flame.  The Greens have it now".  It would been a nice touch I think.  Oh well.

 

The whole ending of this episode is perfection and one of the best sequences of the entire GOT franchise.  Even without the Aemond ending, Luke's arrival and entrance into the chambers had such a ominous vibe to it, even before Vhagar is seen in the background.  The parley with Borros was really well written and everything Borros says and thinks is completely logical. Rhaenyra completely overestimated this house's support and leads me to think many other house will think similarly.  She really should have spent her adulthood visiting the kingdom often enough to muster and lock in support.  I think she will come to regret this in more ways than just losing Luke.  And boy, the squabble between Luke and Aemond is so well done.  I love the reveal of the sapphire eye, and that he wants Luke to cut out his own eye, and doesn't even want interest of anything beyond what he himself lost.  The fact that Borros intervenes and let Luke leave is great, but then, damn, that ending.  The final sequence is so spectacular.  The rain, the sound design, the scale.  What makes it so fascinating is that they aren't even in control of their dragons.  I remembered that Aemond didn't mean to kill Luke and was distraught after it happened, but I was reminded on second watch that Luke also lost control of his dragon, and attacked Vhagar first with fire breath.  There is an earlier episode where Viserys comments that dragons are a power man shouldn't mess with, and its an illusion that they can be controlled by man, and I LOVE that he was right.  What's also interesting is that now team Green knows this and team Black doesn't... but only if Aemond returns home and tells the complete truth.  And that's one of the things I'm super curious about, because his telling of the events could go three ways.  "Vaghar attacked Luke against my wishes, I did not want it", or "Yea, I killed Luke, he took my eye!", or "Luke attacked me first, I was just defending myself!", or even "Nothing happened.  I left in peace, I have no idea what happened to Luke".  I can't wait to see how that goes.


But I also can't wait to see what Team Black does next!  The episode was so good at showing Rhaenyra repeatedly, no matter who suggested otherwise, that she wanted peace, didn't want to rule over ash and bone, and it if did come to war, she absolutely would not land the first blow.  But man.  That look on her face at the end of the episode is INCREDIBLE.  I loved that they used slow-mo, and no audio but music, for that entire shot, and how we see Rhaenyra learn the news, then turn around for a bit, then turn back to camera to show her face.  Perfect ending to a absolutely great season of television.  This is probably the best build-up to war I've ever seen put on film.  It works so well because you're so invested in so many characters.  And the "medieval, but with dragons" is such a fun angle to tell a war story in too.  Can't wait to watch the season 2 premiere tonight!

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House of the Dragon 2x01 A Son For A Son

 

Well that was a pretty good season opener!  Actually, it was a pretty mid season opener, until the ending elevated it up pretty good status.  While the ending was the most shocking on a visceral level, there were lots of other minor shocking moments, or rather changes in behavior/characterization that I wasn't expecting.  Alicent sleeping with Criston Cole is one of them; the second half of the first season really showed us how into her religion she got, and how one of the things that upset her so much was Rhaenyra getting to sleep with whoever she wanted.  And now her husband has died only a couple days ago and she's boning down with the head of her Kingsguard, who she already stopped from killing himself a few years ago when he slept with Rhaenyra, distraught that he went against his oath.  When did he decide to change his morals, and when did she? The episode gives us no insight into this, and I wonder if any will be given.  Good for her for finally having what was probably the first orgasm of her life though!

 

Rhaenyra had a surprising change too.  That look she gave in the season 1 finale told me she wanted revenge NOW.  But no, it turns out she wanted a few days of grieving first while everyone waited for her.  Which is fine, I just didn't see it coming.  I loved that she only had one line in the whole episode (I want Aemond Targaryen).  Now I will say one thing is very confusing, and I have a feeling it will never be explained.  Just *how* did team Black even learn that Luke was dead!?  Like, I assumed a piece of his dragon or some of his clothing washed ashore, and that's how they found out.  But no, they had zero evidence until she found that wing this episode.  So why did they assume he was dead?  All they would know is that he never came home.  And Borros would tell them his men saw him safely fly away.  WTF?

 

The biggest change of all is Aegon, and strangely, that was the one I had the least problem with!  He spent the whole first season not watching to be king AT ALL, with that only changing in his final maybe 30 seconds of screen time in the season.  And even then, it only seemed like he was into the admiration of the crowd, not necessarily trying to be a good king in council meetings and hearing petitions.  But also, he was shown to be a total philanderer last season with many bastards, who didn't care for Haelena except when he wanted to drunkenly rape her.  But now all of a sudden he's become a good father to Jaehaerys specifically, in many different ways.  I think you have to read between the lines to see that maybe he wants to be a better father to him than Viserys was to him, but that isn't explicitly stated in the show.  Whatever the reasons, I actually was completely on board with all these Aegon changes, his scenes were kind of the the best of the episode!  I really liked all the comedy in all his scenes, that was very welcome and funny.

 

Another noticable change was physical ones: The actor playing Jace has clearly aged by 2 years in between seasons, lol!  I loved his entire scene at The Wall that opened the episode though, that was all really cool.  The little detail about Queen Alison (sorry if I got that name wrong)'s dragons not flying over the wall was super interesting, and show more that Benioff and Weiss didn't know what they were doing in the final seasons.  But it was awesome to hear the northern accent again; I almost thought Jon Snow was guest narrating for a second!  I can't wait to see more of this Stark guy eventually.  The other Jace scene, when he returns to debrief his mother and breaks down crying, was one of the best scenes of the episode.  Super well done.  Emma D'Arcy was really good the whole episode.

 

The political machinations within the red keep were all really interesting this week.  I loved the growing wedge between Alicent and Otto, and then also loved that they simply talked about it and Alicent was direct about what she wanted.  I also thought it was interesting that Larys murdered all staff that wasn't loyal to the green cause and replaced them with loyalists, or at least plans to; I suppose we're meant to understand that part of why the final assassination sequence was possible was because they were understaffed.  But more on that in a bit; I also really liked the scene where Larys takes Aegon asides and reminds him that he doesn't have to keep Otto as Hand, he can do what he wants.  I wasn't sure if Larys was striving for the position himself or had other plans, and I like that Aegon doesn't act on anything yet.

 

I was so curious how Aemond would explain what him and his dragon did to Luke at Storm's End, and was kind of bummed we didn't get to see it.  From context clues I *think* he told the complete truth, because someone (I forget who, probably Aemond or Criston in their off-the-books council scene) mentions something about "losing their dragons to war", so I guess they are just all aware that dragons can't actually be controlled.  I thought that would end up being a big deal, but I guess not.  Mysaria being alive was interesting.  It seemed like they concluded her arc last season, but I did note that we never saw her body, just her brothel burning, so it's no surprise that she's back.  That being said, I'm not 100% sure what she told Daemon that he didn't already know.  Season 1 already told us that he knew about Maegor's secret passages.  So was the only new info that they have a rat problem, and a potential assassin should pretend to be a rat catcher?

 

And that final sequence man, wow.  I really had no idea what to expect.  I kind of figured Aemond wasn't going to be killed off, because they're clearly building up to a Daemon/Aemond showdown, and he's too smart/good to be killed in his sleep.  And if he was awake, of course he could take out these two guys.  So the dread of "well, what WILL happen" kept building throughout the whole sequence, wonderfully.  The only part I didn't really get on board with was when they just walk by the throne, with Aegon and a bunch of goons there, and no one seems to even notice them at all.  That was weird.  And surely Daemon knows about passages that avoid the throne room to get to the sleeping chambers?  I didn't get that part.  But the rest, damn.  Especially the ending.  Haelena has been one of the most innocent characters of the show, and what a horrible choice she has to make here.  And not only that, but I watched the episode with headphones and the sound of Jaehaerys' capa being fully detated was pretty gruesome!  What a crazy way to end the episode.  I did think it was odd that there were so few guards around, and especially not a single one seen from Haelena's walk from her chambers to Alicent's.  But I guess we're supposed to assume Criston Cole sent them elsewhere so they wouldn't hear him with Alicent?  I wonder what his punishment will be!?

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17 hours ago, Jay said:

While the ending was the most shocking on a visceral level, there were lots of other minor shocking moments, or rather changes in behavior/characterization that I wasn't expecting. 

 

Agreed, I noticed the same thing. It's almost like they did a soft reboot of some of the characters...character. Probably because they needed to put people on different parts of the chessboard, with different motivations, relationships, etc. to tell the story they want this season. But it's definitely noticeable. 

 

17 hours ago, Jay said:

Just *how* did team Black even learn that Luke was dead!? 

 

Yes! I was thinking the same. In fact, that's the #1 question I've had going into this season, and I was fairly stunned they just shrugged it off. It's either very lazy storytelling, or they're (hopefully) planning on revealing this later, perhaps in a flashback. If not, it's a major disappointment.

 

17 hours ago, Jay said:

The only part I didn't really get on board with was when they just walk by the throne, with Aegon and a bunch of goons there, and no one seems to even notice them at all. 

 

This didn't really surprise me at all. I mean, I noticed it when it happened, but servants, especially low ranking ones, were pretty much seen as part of the wallpaper by royals, if they were noticed at all.  There are all kinds of servants running around the castle, I doubt a couple rat catchers would draw any attention. Especially to the young and arrogant, they're not going to stop and question some filthy peasants. I'm assuming in their world rat catchers are just one step above someone with greyscale. If they're in the castle it will just be assumed they belonged there...again, if they're given any notice at all.

 

Great episode though! Best show on TV.

 

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It helps to watch with subtitles on.

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I hope this season isn't just warfare. I find action far less interesting than drama.

 

Question: I forget,  how did Aemond come to control the most powerful dragon and what house is he now aligned with?

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Excellent first episode of the second season.  Overall I'm enjoying this show much more than any season of GOT (even the good ones).  It's more focused and to-the-point compared to the original's luxuriously paced Glup Shitto approach.  Wish they would ditch that primordial ass theme song though

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7 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Question: I forget,  how did Aemond come to control the most powerful dragon and what house is he now aligned with?

 

He claimed Vaghar after it's original master, Daemon's second wife and daughter of Rhaenys & Corlys, died.

 

And to those questioning how Team Black found out about Luce.

 

During the conversation between Rhaenys & Daemon early in the episode Rhaenys talks about grief. During that talk she mentioned Rhaenyra found out her son died through a raven. I assumed from that that Lord Baratheon send a raven.

That's just my take on it.

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8 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

And to those questioning how Team Black found out about Luce.

 

During the conversation between Rhaenys & Daemon early in the episode Rhaenys talks about grief. During that talk she mentioned Rhaenyra found out her son died through a raven. I assumed from that that Lord Baratheon send a raven.

That's just my take on it.

 

Yeah, I know. But it wasn't very clear, and in any event it's still unsatisfactory.  A raven from who? Under what circumstances? That's a pretty big plot point to just brush aside.

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More than the mechanics of how the information was conveyed, I'd be interested in the Greens' account of what happened. (Maybe this was addressed and I missed it; I'm often a very sloppy first-time viewer.)

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I completely agree that this is a big deal and I was kind of surprised to got no answers from the post-show video thingy or official podcast this week.

 

In the season 1 finale, when it cuts from Luke's death to the news reaching Rhaenyra, you can make several assumptions.  Maybe her house received a raven, maybe someone on her side found the body, who knows.  The look she had on her face wasn't just that she received the news that Luke hadn't returned home yet, though, nor just that Luke was dead, it was definitely from learning the knowledge that Luke was dead, and Aemond was involved.

 

The season 2 premiere then goes on to muddy the waters and make things more complicated instead of answering them.  The fact that she goes out and finds the dragon wing with Luke's cloak it in means they never had any physical evidence before that, pretty definitively meaning that they found out via raven (which was apparently stated as such in the episode, but I missed it).

 

So the huge question is, well who sent the raven, and what did it say?  This matters!

 

If Borros Baratheon sent it, was it:

 

"Aemond arrived before you son did, and we heard their dragons fighting the storm after they both left"

or

"Our men saw Aemond's dragon kill Luke's with our telescopes" (do those exist?)

or

"We saw Aemond leave in the same direction after we saw to it that Luke left safely, but I cannot say what might have happened after that"

or any other number of different potentials

 

Or what if they didn't send it, what if King's Landing sent it?  What if Aemond got home and explained what happened, and so Otto or Alicent or whoever thought it'd be prudent to send a raven to Dragonstone so they'd know right away.  If so, again, how was it couched?

 

"Aemond killed Luke.  Your move"

or

"Aemond lost control of his dragon and it ate Luke's dragon, it was not intentional at all and we grieve with you"

or

"Aemond and Luke both lost complete control of their dragons and they fought each other.  Neither could stop them and Vhagar proved triumphant"

etc

 

There's so many possibilities and the show doesn't settle it.  And I don't mind ambiguity in the show, it can be great (like when it cuts away after the first half of Alicent's response to Aegon question "do you love me?"), but in this case, I feel like answers are required.

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18 minutes ago, Jay said:

So the huge question is, well who sent the raven, and what did it say?  This matters!

 

Exactly. Did Aemond just spill the beans to his mother? And did she send the raven? Or did it come from a spy in King's Landing? A Baratheon? It seems impossible, given the circumstances, that anyone witnessed what went down.

 

One theme I'm noticing developing this season...both women, Rhaenyra and Alicent, have tried at various times to avoid war. But things are taken out of their control, and escalated, by the men around them...Ser Otto, Daemon, Aemond, etc. either through calculation or rashness, take action that makes bloody conflict which may have otherwise been avoided, inevitable. The brutality at the end of this episode is just going to reinforce that. 

 

Did the raven come from Larys, in an attempt to escalate the war? He seems to be being set up as the Machiavelli/Rasputin character in this piece, sort of a combination of Littlefinger & Qyburn. 

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1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Exactly. Did Aemond just spill the beans to his mother? And did she send the raven? Or did it come from a spy in King's Landing?

 

Right!  I want to know (and assumed we'd see) how Aemond explained what happened.  There's a line in this episode somewhere about "losing the war to dragons" so I guess they know dragons aren't 100% controllable, but did Aemond pretend he WAS in control or admit that he wasn't?  Why don't we know this?

 

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

One theme I'm noticing developing this season...both women, Rhaenyra and Alicent, have tried at various times to avoid war. But things are taken out of their control, and escalated, by the men around them...Ser Otto, Daemon, Aemond, etc. either through calculation or rashness, take action that makes bloody conflict which may have otherwise been avoided, inevitable.

 

Yea, I love that aspect.  The war started BY ACCIDENT.  Aemond did not intend to kill Lucerys.  And Team Black not not intend to respond by killing an innocent, 4 year old child.

 

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Did the raven come from Larys, in an attempt to escalate the war? He seems to be being set up as the Machiavelli/Rasputin character in this piece, sort of a combination of Littlefiner & Qyburn. 

 

Oh man, I never even thought of that possibility.  It's that's going to be a late season reveal, I wouldn't have seen it coming on my own!

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Only thing I did notoce is when during the small council meeting and Allicent talks about unnecessary death, she looks at Aemond and Aemond kinda shrugs it off, like it was nothing.

 

Aemomd was clearly shocked when Vhagar killed Luce, but now it seems like he's more going in the direction of "whatever, he cut my eye, he's dead, debt payed".

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17 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Agreed, I noticed the same thing. It's almost like they did a soft reboot of some of the characters...character. Probably because they needed to put people on different parts of the chessboard, with different motivations, relationships, etc. to tell the story they want this season. But it's definitely noticeable. 

 

Yes, a soft reboot is a good way to put it.  Criston, Alicent, Aegon, even Aemond a little bit were noticeably different.  So all Team Green.  Maybe they felt bad they made season 1 so lopsided toward Black and are trying to make Green more sympathetic.

 

But I will say though it was noticeable, it didn't really bother me.  I like these versions better I suppose.

 

17 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

This didn't really surprise me at all. I mean, I noticed it when it happened, but servants, especially low ranking ones, were pretty much seen as part of the wallpaper by royals, if they were noticed at all.  There are all kinds of servants running around the castle, I doubt a couple rat catchers would draw any attention. Especially to the young and arrogant, they're not going to stop and question some filthy peasants. I'm assuming in their world rat catchers are just one step above someone with greyscale. If they're in the castle it will just be assumed they belonged there...again, if they're given any notice at all.

 

My problem wasn't really that Aegon and his goons ignored them, but rather that the secret passages Daemon knew about to get to the sleeping chambers required a walk past the throne at all.  Just seemed weird.  When he snuck Rhaenyra out early in season 1, i don't think they walked by the throne.

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25 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yes, a soft reboot is a good way to put it.  Criston, Alicent, Aegon, even Aemond a little bit were noticeably different.  So all Team Green.  Maybe they felt bad they made season 1 so lopsided toward Black and are trying to make Green more sympathetic.

 

But I will say though it was noticeable, it didn't really bother me.  I like these versions better I suppose

 

In Game of Thrones, the characters in the books were very fleshed out, we knew who they were. I mean, all the books are written from character POV. House of the Dragon is essentially based on a history book, and the characters are pretty thinly drawn, so I think the writers are maybe just getting a handle on who these people are.

 

But like you, I thought none of them were so out of character that it bothered me, and in fact I think it sharpened all the characters and their motivations a bit.

 

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

My problem wasn't really that Aegon and his goons ignored them, but rather that the secret passages Daemon knew about to get to the sleeping chambers required a walk past the throne at all.  Just seemed where.  When he snuck Rhaenyra out early in season 1, i don't think they walked by the throne.

 

Yeah. It did make the castle feel very small.

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21 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

In Game of Thrones, the characters in the books were very fleshed out, we knew who they were. I mean, all the books are written from character POV. House of the Dragon is essentially based on a history book, and the characters are pretty thinly drawn, so I think the writers are maybe just getting a handle on who these people are.

 

Great point!

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On 18/06/2024 at 11:37 PM, bruce marshall said:

I hope this season isn't just warfare. I find action far less interesting than drama.

 

In the existing 9 seasons combined of GOT and HOTD they've never spent an entire season only showing warfare so I don't know why you'd be afraid of them doing so now.  This show is CLEARLY character-driven drama.

 

On 18/06/2024 at 11:37 PM, bruce marshall said:

Question: I forget,  how did Aemond come to control the most powerful dragon

 

Vhagar is one of the original 3 dragons that Aegon The Conquerer used to, well, conquer Westeros.  By the time of season 1 of HOTD, she is riderless.  Off-screen in between episodes, Laena finds her and becomes her rider, but then later in the season she dies.  So Vhagar is riderless again, until episode 6 when Aemond (after being bullied by the other kids for not having a dragon yet) sneaks away at night and claims her.  It is later that night that Lucerys ends up slicing Aemond's eye when all the kids get into a tussle, which is why Aemond wants Luke's eye in retribution in the season 1 finale.

 

On 18/06/2024 at 11:37 PM, bruce marshall said:

and what house is he now aligned with?

 

You don't remember which side the eyepatch guy is on?  Wow....

 


TEAM BLACK

  • Queen Rhaenyra, the first-born child of the previous King Viserys and is who Viserys wanted as his heir, who rides Meleys
    • her oldest son Jacaerys (Jace), officially son of Laenor Velaryon but actually son of Harwyn Strong, who rides Vermax, and is heir to the throne
    • (the second son Lucerys (Luke), officially son of Laenor Velaryon but actually son of Harwyn Strong, who rode Arrax until they both died in last season's finale)
    • her third son Joffrey, officially son of Laenor Velaryon but actually son of Harwyn Strong, who rides Tyraxes
    • her fourth son Aegon III,  son of Daemon
    • her fifth son Viserys II, son of Daemon
  • Her husband Daemon, who is also her uncle (he's Viserys's brother), who rides Caraxes
  • Corlys Velaryon, the master of ships and lord of Driftmark
  • Rhaenys Velaryon, who is Viserys' cousin, and rides Dreamfyre
    • (their son Laenor was briefly married to Rhaenyra, but they faked his death so he could escape with his lover, his former dragon Seasmoke is unclaimed)
    • (their daughter Laena was breifly married to Daemon, but she died after childbirth complications)
      • Daemon/Laena's daughter Baela, who is betrothed to marry Jacaerys, and rides Moondancer
      • Daemon/Laena's daughter Rhaena, was was betrothed to marry Lucerys until he died, and does not have a dragon

TEAM GREEN

  • Otto Hightower, hand of the King
  • Alicent Hightower, daughter of Otto, married to Viserys in season 1, now Dowager Queen in season 2
    • Her oldest song Aegon II, who is now the king, and rides Sunfyre
    • Her daughter Haelena , who is also Aegon II's wife
      • (their fist born son Jaehaerys, who was heir to the throne until he was just decapitated)
      • his twin sister Jaehaera, who Haelena carried into Alicent's room at the end of the episode
    • Her second son Aemond, the guy with the eyepatch who rides Vhagar
    • (supposedly there is another son Daeron who has not been seen in the show yet)
  • Criston Cole, who was one of Viserys's Kingsuard, banged Rhaenyra in season 1, tried to kill himself, was spared by Alicent, and is now head of Aegon's Kingsguard and is now banging Alicent
  • Larys Strong, the foot guy

 

I hope that helps

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41 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

  • their oldest son Jacaerys (Jace), who rides Vermax, and is heir to the throne
  • (the second son Lucerys (Luke), who rode Arrax until they both died in last season's finale)
  • their third son Joffrey, who rides Tyraxes
  • their fourth son Aegon The Younger
  • the fifth son Viserys The Younger

 

Firstly Jay, fantastic post.

 

Only slight adjustment is that Jacaerys, Lucerys & Joffrey aren't Rhaenyra & Daemon's.

They are Rhaenyra's children who she had with Harwin Strong during her marriage to Laenor. Hence the reason they have brown hair instead of the Targaryen white.

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Quite right, fixed my post

 

And that's not really the reason for the hair color.  Its a genetic trait that could go either way:

 

Viserys (white hair) and Alicent Hightower (brunette) had all white-haired children

Rhaenyra (white hair) and Harwyn Strong (brunette) had all brunette children

Rhaegar Targaryen (white hair) and Lyanna Stark (brunette) had a brunette child (Jon Snow)

Aegon II has a white-haired bastard (there's no way the mother does)

etc

 

Essentially its just a coincidence that all of Rhaenyra/Harwyn's kids ended up brunette and all of Viserys/Alicent's ended up white-haired.  But it sure helps the commoners accept Aegon as their king.

 

As far as I can tell, one thing the shows HAVE been consistent with is that if BOTH parents are Targaryen (or Velaryon), then their children will ALWAYS have white hair:

 

Corlys & Rhaeys's two kids are both white-haired

Daemon & Laena's two daughters are both white-haired

Daemon & Rhaenyra's two sons are both white-haired

Aegon II and Haelena's twins are both white-haired

 

etc

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