Natalie Holt's OBI-WAN KENOBI (2022)

[artus_grayboot 77]

@Manakin Skywalkerjust wanna say that I love your changing profile pictures.

@Yavar Moradito get a like from you on one of my posts, wow do I consider that such a high honor. Love the work you and the team do on The Goldsmith Odyssey.

[LSH 968]

2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

That is true, William Ross wasn't involved in the other non-Williams Star Wars soundtracks, even the ones that had new Williams themes written for them

There is certainly an extenuating circumstance present for Kenobi that wasn't there for the others

 

And it's awful that she is having to hide it all, poor girl.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, Gibster said:

Has there been any “seeding of the legacy themes”?

Closest I can think of is Holt's Imperial theme which is derivative of the Imperial March

[p0llux 392]

  

8 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

 

 

She talks here about using the pre-excisting themes. 

I'm sure people won't agree with the decision the filmmakers made about using them sparingly, but I do get where they're coming from storywise

Based on what she said, we'll finally hear legacy themes in ep6? She uses the word "seeding". Did she mean hint the themes? I've heard no hints/seeds so far. If holding the legacy themes back until ep6 was the plan, then so be it. Better late than never. But this approach isn't really in the spirit of Star Wars. I hope she'll deliver in ep6. I still support Natalie Holt, whether she was the best choice for this job or not.

 

Tinfoil hat moment: Also any body language Sherlocks here? There's something odd about her response when she answered the question about quoting motifs. I can't put my finger on it.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

9 minutes ago, p0llux said:

  Tinfoil hat moment: Also any body language Sherlocks here? There's something odd about her response when she answered the question about quoting motifs. I can't put my finger on it.

Kathleen Kennedy pointing a gun at her off-camera.  

[Tydirium 1,166]

10 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

 

 

She talks here about using the pre-excisting themes. 

I'm sure people won't agree with the decision the filmmakers made about using them sparingly, but I do get where they're coming from storywise

 

Her answer about that makes no sense, though. She acts like these themes are in their "genesis" in between ROTS and ANH, but how? The themes were already present and developed by ROTS. By the time you get to this show chronologically, you've already heard Qui-Gon's theme in TPM; the Force theme in TPM, AOTC, ROTS; Leia's theme in ROTS; the Imperial March in AOTC, ROTS (with hints in Anakin's theme in TPM); the Mustafar theme in ROTS; the Order 66 music in ROTS. The Imperial March is even heard in both anthology films, Rogue One and Solo, and they both take place before ANH. Also, she talks about leading things to ANH, but the Imperial March isn't even in that movie...

 

The point is, these themes don't need to be "seeded"; they already exist in the universe. Many of them are even referenced in the animated shows that chronologically take place before this show (TCW, Bad Batch). Why do they need to be treated in this show as though they've never existed before? 

 

I'd also like to point out that she remembered the name of ANH, but drew a blank when it came to ROTS. Between her, and the writer Joby Harold also seemingly not having watched ROTS before writing the show based on recent remarks of his, it is no wonder that there are so many problems. This show is arguably more of a follow-up to ROTS, than it is a prequel to ANH. Even the marketing clearly reflects this.

 

There's no excuse for this.

[artguy360 1,843]

2 hours ago, p0llux said:

  

Based on what she said, we'll finally hear legacy themes in ep6? She uses the word "seeding". Did she mean hint the themes? I've heard no hints/seeds so far. If holding the legacy themes back until ep6 was the plan, then so be it. Better late than never. But this approach isn't really in the spirit of Star Wars. I hope she'll deliver in ep6. I still support Natalie Holt, whether she was the best choice for this job or not.

 

Tinfoil hat moment: Also any body language Sherlocks here? There's something odd about her response when she answered the question about quoting motifs. I can't put my finger on it.

Holt has described her young Leia music as having seeds/elements of JW's Leia theme. But honestly, nothing about any of the music in the show has stood out enough for me to notice details like that. Until we get an official soundtrack release, I can only say the music has been underwhelming and I haven't noticed any musical seeds planted. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

That is true, William Ross wasn't involved in the other non-Williams Star Wars soundtracks, even the ones that had new Williams themes written for them

There is certainly an extenuating circumstance present for Kenobi that wasn't there for the others

William ross is an orchestrator in rogue one…

[DarthDementous 1,059]

3 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

William ross is an orchestrator in rogue one…

Interesting. Is William Ross more than an orchestrator on Kenobi?

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

It sounds like that, and the last chaptaer said additional music by

[Tydirium 1,166]

2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Interesting. Is William Ross more than an orchestrator on Kenobi?

What do you mean? We’ve been talking for weeks now about how he gets his own standalone listing in the end credits for adapting JW’s Kenobi theme…

 

Not to mention that he’s written at least a couple big cues so far: the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in episode 3 and Obi-Wan’s hallway fight in episode 4.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

22 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

What do you mean? We’ve been talking for weeks now about how he gets his own standalone listing in the end credits for adapting JW’s Kenobi theme…

 

Not to mention that he’s written at least a couple big cues so far: the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in episode 3 and Obi-Wan’s hallway fight in episode 4.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what the difference is between an arranger and an orchestrator. Do you have an image of that standalone listing so I can see the wording?

Also, can someone grab an image of the 'Additional music by' credit in Kenobi episode 4? I don't have Disney+ myself to be able to verify it

Here's what it says on William Ross's official site:

[Tydirium 1,166]

19 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what the difference is between an arranger and an orchestrator

An orchestrator takes sketches of a cue (often a piano score) and sets the music for the various instruments of the orchestra. Many times the choice of instruments is left up to the orchestrator’s preference, but in JW’s case, he uses his orchestrators more like copyists; he generally already has an idea of what instruments should play what music, and the orchestrators write it out for those instruments. It saves him a lot of time.

 

Arranging is a lot freer than orchestrating; the arranger simply takes a tune/theme/piece and does what they want with it. They do their own orchestration, they can play around with the harmonies, they can add countermelodies, etc.

 

Adapting (what Ross is doing in Kenobi) is similar to that, basically arranging but with a film element. Ross is taking JW’s Obi-Wan theme and adapting it to various scenes in the show, where it would fit. So, rather than JW picking every instance of when and where his Obi-Wan theme should show up, as he normally would as a film composer, instead Ross gets to choose. Think of it like this: Ross is a composer for the show, but the music he writes is primarily JW’s theme. However, he is free to orchestrate and arrange that theme as he pleases, and to use that theme where he wants to use it.

 

That’s already a lot of work, but the thing is, recent episodes have revealed that he is going even beyond that: he is evidently being asked to write entire lengthy cues (lengthier than many of Holt’s, even), for scenes as important as the Obi-Wan/Vader duel. That is a big deal, as ordinarily the main composer for a show or film (in this case Natalie Holt) would obviously score such an important scene.

[Archive Collection 214]

12 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what the difference is between an arranger and an orchestrator.

The easiest, non-musical way to describe it is "big picture" vs. "fine tuning/smaller details"

 

An arranger is someone who takes melodic material, themes, etc. and organises that material into a piece of music - for example, how William Ross took JW's Harry Potter themes, and created 'cues' to accompany The Chamber Of Secrets. The arranger doesn't write material, but has to make creative decisions about the structure and presentation of that material within a listenable piece of music.

 

An orchestrator takes a piece of music that has already substantively been written and arranged, and works out the intricacies of how that piece will be played by an ensemble. Their job is to focus on the finer details, rather than the big picture.

[Van_Etten 111]

[DangerMotif 1,037]

48 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what the difference is between an arranger and an orchestrator. Do you have an image of that standalone listing so I can see the wording?

Also, can someone grab an image of the 'Additional music by' credit in Kenobi episode 4? I don't have Disney+ myself to be able to verify it

Here's what it says on William Ross's official site:

Not a single mention of obiwan on Holt’s site, she had loki up on the first episode

[eitam 364]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

 

Not to mention that he’s written at least a couple big cues so far: the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in episode 3 and Obi-Wan’s hallway fight in episode 4.

 

Sorry if I missed something in the thread, but how do we know that ? 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Aside from the orchestration and feeling, i think some resembled a cue in talenof desperaux score by ross, a score which i dont think holt would quote….

[Tydirium 1,166]

32 minutes ago, Van_Etten said:

Isn’t it funny how Holt is billed as the main composer of the show, but all her people are listed after William Ross?

 

EDIT: To be fair, Ross is obviously a bigger name than those other people, and also has the adapting credit for the show. But still, it’s just interesting seeing Holt’s team of composers listed beneath him.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

5 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Aside from the orchestration and feeling, i think some resembled a cue in talenof desperaux score by ross, a score which i dont think holt would quote….

It's the score that made her want to become a composer 

[Tydirium 1,166]

24 minutes ago, eitam said:

 

Sorry if I missed something in the thread, but how do we know that ? 

Here’s a comment I made back when we were discussing this:

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34590-natalie-holts-obi-wan-kenobi-2022/page/9/#comment-1889238

 

Since then, I’m even more certain that Ross did the Obi/Vader duel. In addition to his “adapting” credit, in episode 4 he also got an “additional music” credit. The music for the Obi-Wan hallway fight both felt very Star-Wars-y, and included JW’s Obi-Wan theme. All you need to assume Ross did it is the presence of the Obi-Wan theme, but the cue goes well beyond that theme, and also features orchestration (and sound mix/orchestra performance) that sounds just like the Obi/Vader duel in the previous episode. And again, as I said in my linked comment and as @Luke Skywalker said above, there is music in that duel that resembles Ross’ Tale of Despereaux score.

[artus_grayboot 77]

My guess is that it was the producers that decided not to go with the well-known themes. I don't think Holt or Ross would make that kind of decision. But if we're to take Holt's comments at face value, then yes she was very careful to build up to the themes in A New Hope akin to Loki. But as @Tydirium has stated, the movies and shows that chronologically take place before this one put the well-known themes on full display (The Clone Wars using Vader's theme, for example. It didn't develop the theme or reduce it to building blocks/cells of the idea). It's a strange creative decision that creates a lack of continuity.

But, here's the counterargument that makes this all less "speculation central" and to me makes sense. Thank you @p0llux for opening my mind to this possibility with your thoughts. I haven't seen Loki, but based on that interview alone, she stated that she was seeding themes to build up to the final episode. If that's what we're getting with Kenobi - a delay of these themes from being fully stated until the dramatic climax - I will recall most of the reservations I've been having. It's like what John Williams did in E.T, and I think based on the large amount of internet discourse re: the lack of well-known themes so far in this show, it will prove to be a good choice. It's delayed gratification if I ever saw it. 

@p0llux does make a good point though that this seeding approach isn't really in the spirit of Star Wars - I agree on that. But again, if it's to build up to a dramatic climax, and if it's done well, I'll probably go with it.

[Brónach 1,301]

I take more issue with the crappy music than with presence of those themes

[Tydirium 1,166]

I posted a link to the video interview over on reddit:

 

 

Already over a hundred comments, pretty much all bashing the score. 😳

[p0llux 392]

2 hours ago, artus_grayboot said:

@p0llux does make a good point though that this seeding approach isn't really in the spirit of Star Wars - I agree on that. But again, if it's to build up to a dramatic climax, and if it's done well, I'll probably go with it.

The problem is I can't say it's been well done. I've heard no "seeds" of any kind so far. What does it mean to "seed"? Is she partially stating a few notes of a character theme? Is she using the same chords? Where are these "seeds" she's referring to? Am I deaf? Maybe she's so technically gifted, she hid them behind loads of musical grammar that few can decipher. I just don't know. We've had multiple episodes of major legacy characters on screen. We should've heard something obvious by now.

 

If ep6 contains everything I wanted, I'd go with it. Better late than never, I said. However, it could've been super effective if she better prepared the audience for the full statement of the themes. I'm not a composer, so I can't comment on exactly how she could do that. It's her job to figure that out.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

44 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

I posted a link to the video interview over on reddit:

 

 

Already over a hundred comments, pretty much all bashing the score. 😳

Does she talk about it more in her full interview? It’s kinda funny how the story of Williams involvement has changed everytime they speak about it, there was no way he called and asked, she now says it was always part of the gig

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Is this guy on crack? Listen to what he says here...

 

 

[Andy 4,083]

^ I cannot listen to his voice without picturing this guy:

 

 

"No, Beavis.  Natalie's showing that she understands and gets Star Wars better than anyone to date, M-kay?"

 

17 hours ago, artus_grayboot said:

@Manakin Skywalkerjust wanna say that I love your changing profile pictures.

 

 

Your Fode and Beed one is a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.  The previous headswap gave me the willies.  The new one is hilarious. 

 

 

[p0llux 392]

19 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Is this guy on crack? Listen to what he says here...

 

 

Jesus Christ

[artus_grayboot 77]

2 hours ago, p0llux said:

The problem is I can't say it's been well done. I've heard no "seeds" of any kind so far. What does it mean to "seed"? Is she partially stating a few notes of a character theme? Is she using the same chords? Where are these "seeds" she's referring to?

For first video, it's the same harmonies/chord progression as the Imperial March with the new Vader theme as the melody. You hear in those low strings.
 

For the second video, the two-note motif seems to borrow the notes from the Imperial motif in A New Hope. G G G G A# A#... G A# A#... G#/Ab, A# G#/Ab G. Whereas the two notes in the Kenobi score is just G... A#...

For the young Leia theme, at 40:29 in Ep. 3 you'll hear two notes from the JW melody. @Falstaftpointed out that moment on his reduction of the themes on page 10 - his identification of the variation on the young Leia theme starts at 40:22.
 

1 hour ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Is this guy on crack? Listen to what he says here...

 

 

I don't think that's completely fair - I watched some of the stuff in this vid before that statement and I think he points out some good stuff going on in the score. His error is in assuming Holt was responsible for all the music he heard.

@Tydirium's observations on the Despereaux score and the similarities in the music of this show make a good case for figuring out which cues Ross did and which ones Holt did. But I am curious as to who gets credit for each track once the OST comes out.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

At this point can 2 great episodes really save the score? The damage is already done and the bar continually lowers by each episode

[GerateWohl 4,336]

In general I think, when I don't recognize the music during watching the show, then it is good. When I recognize it, it is usually bad. But that happens only in a few moments when the music dominates. Therefore probably the music is mostly ok somehow.

But, as many others said,  I really don't see any point in this franitc avoidance of classical themes as if no prequels ever existed.

[p0llux 392]

18 hours ago, artus_grayboot said:

For first video, it's the same harmonies/chord progression as the Imperial March with the new Vader theme as the melody. You hear in those low strings.
 

For the second video, the two-note motif seems to borrow the notes from the Imperial motif in A New Hope. G G G G A# A#... G A# A#... G#/Ab, A# G#/Ab G. Whereas the two notes in the Kenobi score is just G... A#...

For the young Leia theme, at 40:29 in Ep. 3 you'll hear two notes from the JW melody. @Falstaftpointed out that moment on his reduction of the themes on page 10 - his identification of the variation on the young Leia theme starts at 40:22.

Oh I missed these hints. The first one was a big giveaway, but I only watched the ep once and I wasn't as hyper focused as I normally would at that point in the series. In my opinion, the 2nd and 3rd ones were far more trivial. The casual listener isn't gonna hear anything, especially the 2nd one in that kind of an arrangement.

 

So I was wrong, she did leave hints. I don't claim to be a sherlock, even if I've been on this board for awhile. However, it seems like quite a bit of sherlocking was needed to identify at least 2 of those. If only we were all music sherlocks...

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

18 hours ago, artus_grayboot said:

For the young Leia theme, at 40:29 in Ep. 3 you'll hear two notes from the JW melody.

 

She uses notes now?

[Brando 1,856]

Can’t remember if it’s this thread or not but yes it looks like they played Samuel Kims version on the set🙄

[BrotherSound 2,242]

On 12/06/2022 at 10:33 AM, Van_Etten said:

 

Ok, this is curious: at least one of the earlier episodes credits Ross and John Williams for orchestrations, but here only Ross is credited for orchestrations (not counting the ones working with Holt). So what could that mean? I assumed the orchestration credit was probably for the end credits, but then it should be consistent for every episode. Did JW write (and orchestrate) some actual cues for the show?

[Richard Penna 3,670]

29 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

So what could that mean? I assumed the orchestration credit was probably for the end credits, but then it should be consistent for every episode.

 

I wouldn't read too much into what could just be a minor mistake or typo when compiling the credits. Lots of things 'should' be... doesn't mean that they are.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

6 hours ago, Brando said:

Can’t remember if it’s this thread or not but yes it looks like they played Samuel Kims version on the set🙄

This is actually a nightmare scenario wtf

 

Imagine using a generic trailer music style cover as the inspiration while filming instead of the actual iconic Williams piece. Utterly insane. No wonder the music sounds the way it does

[Andy 4,083]

That’s depressing. 

[DangerMotif 1,037]

Do you think they even know the difference?

1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

This is actually a nightmare scenario wtf

 

Imagine using a generic trailer music style cover as the inspiration while filming instead of the actual iconic Williams piece. Utterly insane. No wonder the music sounds the way it does

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

43 minutes ago, Gibster said:

Do you think they even know the difference?

 

Probably not. This very much feels like an extension of people mistaking this style of trailer music as something composed by John Williams and expressing disappointment when it isn't on the soundtrack release

[DangerMotif 1,037]

15 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

Probably not. This very much feels like an extension of people mistaking this style of trailer music as something composed by John Williams and expressing disappointment when it isn't on the soundtrack release

What do you mean? I thought Williams re recorded Duel Of The Fates for the trailer 😂

[artguy360 1,843]

4 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

This is actually a nightmare scenario wtf

 

Imagine using a generic trailer music style cover as the inspiration while filming instead of the actual iconic Williams piece. Utterly insane. No wonder the music sounds the way it does

Lol, this is legitimately sad if no one even recognized that it wasn't JW's original music.

[TownerFan 4,983]

13 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

 

Ok, this is curious: at least one of the earlier episodes credits Ross and John Williams for orchestrations, but here only Ross is credited for orchestrations (not counting the ones working with Holt). So what could that mean? I assumed the orchestration credit was probably for the end credits, but then it should be consistent for every episode. Did JW write (and orchestrate) some actual cues for the show?

John was credited with orchestrations together with Bill Ross in the end credits of the pilot episode. 
 

Based on what Holt said in one interview (i.e. besides the theme and suite, JW also recorded a set of demo cues to show how to use the theme), it’s fair to assume that Ross took some of JW’s demo cues and repurposed to some scenes in the first episode keeping John’s original orchestration.

[DiamondFire 67]

20 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

This is actually a nightmare scenario wtf

 

Imagine using a generic trailer music style cover as the inspiration while filming instead of the actual iconic Williams piece. Utterly insane. No wonder the music sounds the way it does

I asked about this, was going to post it tomorrow with my opinion of ep5 score.. but since it was brought up: apparently it was the stunt performers choice. They chose whatever got them in the zone the most. So no, it's not a "nightmare scenario" that someone found music easier to work with.

[HunterTech 987]

But it doesn't feed into the narrative that modern film music is purely brain dead, so less likes for this post! 

 

Once again, this is aggressively a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing, since now it seems that use of prior SW material in even this context is only met with distain. Suggesting once again that Holt using any pre-established themes would've only prompted a different kind of ire instead.

[artus_grayboot 77]

1 hour ago, HunterTech said:

Suggesting once again that Holt using any pre-established themes would've only prompted a different kind of ire instead.

I don't know if that would necessarily be true, but it is true that Star Wars tends to be held to a really high standard among its fanbase (and rightfully so). Maybe you're right though. I'm pretty new to these forums though, so I don't know what the criticism of earlier, other composers that have worked in Star Wars looked like. I have seen a lot of people not like Kevin Kiner's work on here, though, which really did surprise me. I really like his stuff.

I really appreciate the balance you're trying to bring to the discussion by bringing this up, though! What kind of ire do you think would have happened if she used the pre-existing material?
 

1 hour ago, DIamondFire said:

apparently it was the stunt performers choice. They chose whatever got them in the zone the most. So no, it's not a "nightmare scenario" that someone found music easier to work with.

That does make sense from a tempo, heavy-drum-beat type of deal that it would inspire them to get into the zone. If what you're saying is true, I'm willing to give them a bit of grace. They're professional stunt performers, not professional musicians. And as snobby as I could be about it, especially in a forum about music, that's the reality of the situation. Live and let live.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, DIamondFire said:

I asked about this, was going to post it tomorrow with my opinion of ep5 score.. but since it was brought up: apparently it was the stunt performers choice. They chose whatever got them in the zone the most. So no, it's not a "nightmare scenario" that someone found music easier to work with.

That seems really strange to me that a stunt performer gets to dictate the musical mood on set, I’ve only heard that being something done by the directors at least when it comes to Star Wars

 

I’ve also never heard of a stunt performer performing to music on set

[DiamondFire 67]

Banger episode and... banger music.

 

I myself heard a lot of hints of other existing themes which was great. Especially the weird anakins dark deeds very slowly towards the end as an underscore. I liked EVERY song in it. The fight music was great, the arrival music was great... I loved it all. GG to them lol

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

I heard some Imperial March nods in the episode.

 

This was the best episode up to now. And hope the last episode is even better.

Maybe my overall feeling of the show will be a bit different.