Natalie Holt's OBI-WAN KENOBI (2022)

[Falstaft 2,132]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

 

Assuming this is her Obi theme at 0:41?

 

 

 

Interesting -- starts with the same melodic gesture as her Young Leia theme, led me to think it was a slowed and minorized variant of her tune on initial watch.

 

 

 

  

23 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

 

Interesting, I noticed that part right away when I was watching the episode reminds me of James Newton Howard's work for the Hunger Games movies

 

 

Thought exactly the same thing!

[artguy360 1,843]

34 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

Assuming this is her Obi theme at 0:41?

 

 

This sounds more developed and thematic than the rest of the music Holt wrote, so I could see this being her Kenobi theme. It's not bad, just very typical for modern orchestral film scoring. Could easily fit in Game of Thrones or any prestige drama.

[greenturnedblue 372]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

 

Assuming this is her Obi theme at 0:41?

 

 

 

Interesting, I noticed that part right away when I was watching the episode reminds me of James Newton Howard's work for the Hunger Games movies

 

[Tydirium 1,166]

FYI, Apple Music incorrectly only lists Natalie Holt as the composer for "Dark Side Assault"; it should be Natalie Holt & John Williams (as in "Hangar Escape" and "No Further Use"), as she also uses his Obi-Wan theme in that track at 1:09.

[Faleel 5,337]

I'm gonna dissent and say that the most effective music in this show us the last few seconds of Hold Hans for the Lola reveal.

 

 

Sue me.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

8 minutes ago, Counterparts said:

I'm gonna dissent and say that the most effective music in this show us the last few seconds of Hold Hans for the Lola reveal.

 

 

Sue me.

 

[Cameron007 43]

That "Hold Hands" cue is really beautiful, albeit in a simple way. But it's one of my favorites, and I'm glad it was included.

[Archive Collection 214]

I feel sorry for everyone who was involved in the score for this project.

 

Natalie Holt - an accomplished and talented composer - clearly, wasn’t given clear direction from LFL about the tone of the score. Perhaps she wasn’t the right choice; but that’s not her fault, and any composer would jump at the opportunity to produce a score for Star Wars. She had her score butchered and edited, which destroyed any chance of her score working properly in the show. I’m sure if we heard all of Holt’s music, there would be more to appreciate - but we’ve only heard about half of it, so it’s hard to really see what she was going for. It’s hard to present and develop original motivic material in a score, and make it stand out, if half of your score is replaced by another composer’s work. I’m trying my best not to join the pile on against Natalie Holt, because she’s really just a victim of LucasFilm’s mismanagement of the score. 

 

Then there’s William Ross - a brilliant orchestrator, arranger and conductor, and probably the better choice of composer for the series - who was seemingly brought in right at the eleventh hour, and did the best he could under the given circumstances. His music is great, and I think more of it would have been better for the series.

 

Hopefully if Season 2 happens, LFL can either encourage Holt to write a more orchestral, “classical” score (perhaps with Ross orchestrating and conducting) OR just hire Ross/Williams. The way they managed the music for this season was a mess, and a massive act of disrespect to both composers.

[TownerFan 4,983]

22 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

YouTube lists Williams as the sole composer of End Credits, unlike the 6 other William Ross tracks (where the credit is shared). 

 

I think we can infer Williams wrote the alternate intro and outro used for the end credits. 

 

Bill Ross wrote on his Facebook page that the End Credits piece is his own:

 

Quote

The Obi-Wan Kenobi album is out today everywhere music can be found! You can find music from the whole show including several of my tracks, "Some things Can't Be Forgotten", "Saying Goodbye," "End Credits" and more! Hope you enjoy, it was an honor to be a part of this project!

 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02mwGYpcb9JcFQ69WGC5qvFo1q5X8FrgxFpcYukbDo7ZN1GQH7cnjSpNcUHEVwvYWkl&id=100063575897032

[DiamondFire 67]

14 hours ago, Bespin said:

This may have already been said, but will there be a CD?

Do they still make CD's?

[Arpy 4,145]

36 minutes ago, DiamondFire said:

Do they still make CD's?

Do they still make DiamondFires?

[Bilbo 3,709]

Somethings Can’t Be Forgotten is playing on a loop in my head since the episode aired. 

[1977 1,743]

14 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Is there any part of the show that did?

 

MacGregor can't be cheap.

 

13 hours ago, Gibster said:

"Because we’re in the territory with Leia and Luke and Vader, we've got all these characters that are so precious to people. It’s just making sure that we were being respectful of the old, bringing in the new."

 

Wut

 

Nothing Holt wrote (if that's even the right verb) in any way respects the musical legacy of Star Wars. It's virtually indistinguishable from any RCP score for any action film of the past decade.

[Dave 217]

People on twitter thanking Natalie Holt for cues written by William Ross...

 

[Holko 9,499]

Reading is hard.

[LSH 968]

I hope to God that Natalie doesn't read these tweets. This is exactly why I said the whole thing has been cruel and unfair to those involved. 

 

Yes, these mouth-breathers can't read but it can't be nice to see these responses.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

8 minutes ago, LSH said:

I hope to God that Natalie doesn't read these tweets. This is exactly why I said the whole thing has been cruel and unfair to those involved. 

 

Yes, these mouth-breathers can't read but it can't be nice to see these responses.

A lot of the SW fan attacks on Holt have been oddly personal 

[crumbs 14,300]

7 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

A lot of the SW fan attacks on Holt have been oddly personal 

 

Hardly surprising after the last 5 years and some of the vile commentary I've seen about Kathleen Kennedy, Daisy Ridley, Kelly Marie Tran, Moses Ingram...

 

There's an obvious theme going on here.

[igger6 894]

13 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

A lot of the SW fan attacks on Holt have been oddly personal 

 

It's a weird dynamic.  That's true, I suppose, but she has also has a lot of dedicated apologists and even oddly magnanimous attackers (the latter of which is not a bad thing, but it's worth noting).  Some of the posts on this thread seem determined to absolve her of responsibility for even the most composer-centered choices, and others have gone comically out of their way to shower Holt with praise before making a criticism of the music ("I LOVE Holt, but..." "Holt is a brilliant composer, but..." "Holt will certainly be godmother to my next child, but...").  For someone with a resumé as comparatively short as hers, people seem awfully convinced of her genius—that, or this dynamic is the bitter fruit of Disney's making her gender a selling point in the first place.  Why not just bill her as "the composer of Loki," a high-profile hit show in its own right?

 

All that said, I love "First Rescue," and I like bits of "Hangar Escape" and "Dark Side Assault."  "Hold Hands" is nice but wouldn't stand out if I weren't purposely scouring a score I know to be Star Wars for pleasant moments.  My next trip through this to pick out MP3s will be a short one.

[BB-8 3,461]

[artus_grayboot 77]

Finished listening to it the other day, and yes the two approaches are in conflict with one another. You hear a subtle Imperial March statement in a Holt cue before hearing the Ross Nu-Vader theme later, and then the full statement of The Imperial March after the discussion with the Emperor. In my mind, the seeding should go in this order: the Holt two note to the Ross Nu-Vader to Imperial March/Holt Imperial motive?
 

But it seems to me that it overall went to a more orchestral or classical Hollywood bent as it got closer to the end. Hangar Escape from Holt is a good example. But then you have that Ross cue that sounds like Zimmer when Obi and Vader fight. So it’s all over the place in terms of musical approach. The choir sounds so small or mixed poorly for that one, almost sounds synthesized. But you know overall that cue is good on Ross because it shows his versatility.
 

Could hear more of the seeding that Holt was talking about. Perhaps though the fact that each episode is an hour long it makes all of that less obvious? I don’t know.

Also, the Holt stuff isn’t terrible. As others are saying, it’s just not Star Wars. It was never meant to reflect modern trends at all.

 - this is great

[Oswin Pond 58]

25 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Hardly surprising after the last 5 years and some of the vile commentary I've seen about Kathleen Kennedy, Daisy Ridley, Kelly Marie Tran, Moses Ingram...

 

There's an obvious theme going on here.

 

You can add Christensen, Ahmed Best, Jake Lloyd, Rian Johnson and probably the worst of all George Lucas (Even today I still see people saying Lucas should kill himself) It's sadly a trend that keeps happening over and over again. I'll never understand why because even though I hate someone's work I won't attack the person personally. 

[igger6 894]

2 minutes ago, Oswin Pond said:

 

You can add Christensen, Ahmed Best, Jake Lloyd, Rian Johnson and probably the worst of all George Lucas (Even today I still see people saying Lucas should kill himself) It's sadly a trend that keeps happening over and over again. I'll never understand why because even though I hate someone's work I won't attack the person personally. 

 

Great point.  Toxic fandom is older and broader than tends to get pointed out in the post-2017 era.

[artus_grayboot 77]

I am glad that Vivienne Lee Blair is not getting anything like that. She did wonderful work and should not be thrown under the bus at all.

[Oswin Pond 58]

I think the Williams version is obviously superior but out of curiosity I would really like to see what the show would have looked like with Holt version of Obi-Wan theme.

 

I really like "Hold Hands". Like someone else said it's very simple but effective.

[GerateWohl 4,330]

Does the "Young Leia" and "Days of Alderan" remind anyone else rather of Horner's Avatar music than of Star Wars music?

 

[Andy 4,082]

^Yes.

 

I'm afraid I'm just too old to appreciate the RCP sound.  The drum loops are so present and oppressive.  

 

We talk about "colors" when we discuss orchestral music, and the different sonics of the orchestra.

 

If this score had a color it would be grayish brown.  There's almost no nuance, it's just... ON.  

 

If percussion is what modern composers need, there are some wonderful percussion instruments that seem to have fallen out of favor - Xylophone, glockenspiel, triangle all add wonderful color and texture.  And worst of all,  good old sharp, crisp Timpani.  Timpani >>>> Tako Drums.  

 

I think my ears are hungering for more clarity more than anything else.  Let each part of the orchestra have its turn and its presence.

 

[Brónach 1,301]

14 minutes ago, Andy said:

if percussion is what modern composers need, there are some wonderful percussion instruments that seem to have fallen out of favor - Xylophone, glockenspiel, triangle all add wonderful color and texture.  And worst of all,  good old sharp, crisp Timpani.  Timpani >>>> Tako Drums. 

 

marimba pls

[artus_grayboot 77]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Does the "Young Leia" and "Days of Alderan" remind anyone else rather of Horner's Avatar music than of Star Wars music?

 

Holt’s material reminds me a lot of Horner and Silvestri, as well as Giacchino and Kiner.

[Andy 4,082]

11 minutes ago, Brónach said:

 

marimba pls

We laugh but there was PR celebrating nose flute. 👃🏻 

[LSH 968]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Does the "Young Leia" and "Days of Alderan" remind anyone else rather of Horner's Avatar music than of Star Wars music?

 

 

Strangely, I think that's some of her best material and it would probably work better in another show.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

https://www.nme.com/features/tv-interviews/obi-wan-kenobi-natalie-holt-interview-star-wars-3256392

Getting the job before Williams was even confirmed to be writing the main theme, Holt wanted to make sure her own approach felt as new as it did familiar – hinting at the classics while standing apart from them. “We didn’t want to lean into the original Star Wars music, but we wanted to lead towards it,” she explains. “Deborah Chow [director] wanted the score to feel sparer and more modern. We were ultimately doing something much more emotional and I wanted something that felt angrier and more wild. The famous ‘Imperial March’ is so militant and organised, and I wanted visceral. I wanted pure rage.”

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Yeah right.

2 hours ago, Oswin Pond said:

 

You can add Christensen, Ahmed Best, Jake Lloyd, Rian Johnson and probably the worst of all George Lucas (Even today I still see people saying Lucas should kill himself) It's sadly a trend that keeps happening over and over again. I'll never understand why because even though I hate someone's work I won't attack the person personally. 

Can we add Giacchino to the list?

[LSH 968]

51 minutes ago, Gibster said:

I wanted pure rage.

 

Well you've certainly coaxed that emotion out of some listeners.

[DiamondFire 67]

9 hours ago, Arpy said:

Do they still make DiamondFires?

I wasn't joking. I haven't seen a CD or something that can PLAY a CD for many years.

57 minutes ago, Gibster said:

https://www.nme.com/features/tv-interviews/obi-wan-kenobi-natalie-holt-interview-star-wars-3256392

Getting the job before Williams was even confirmed to be writing the main theme, Holt wanted to make sure her own approach felt as new as it did familiar – hinting at the classics while standing apart from them. “We didn’t want to lean into the original Star Wars music, but we wanted to lead towards it,” she explains. “Deborah Chow [director] wanted the score to feel sparer and more modern. We were ultimately doing something much more emotional and I wanted something that felt angrier and more wild. The famous ‘Imperial March’ is so militant and organised, and I wanted visceral. I wanted pure rage.”

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

I mean, she isn't wrong about the Imperial March thing. Empire Attacks is far angrier and wilder/less organised.

[Tydirium 1,166]

4 hours ago, LSH said:

I hope to God that Natalie doesn't read these tweets. This is exactly why I said the whole thing has been cruel and unfair to those involved. 

 

Yes, these mouth-breathers can't read but it can't be nice to see these responses.

 

Heck, I hope to God that William Ross doesn't read the Tweets. Imagine writing so much music for a show like this, and yet seemingly everyone is praising a different composer for stuff you wrote... Ross should be getting way more credit than he is. Why is Holt getting virtually all the interviews? Where are the Ross interviews? Hardly anyone seems interested in actually highlighting him and his work for this; it's like he's just some guy whose name just happens to show up in the show's end credits and on a few tracks on the OST.

[michael_grig 464]

I'm crying right now, my heart is deeply hurt....

 

The worst part is that the other four are giving nods of approval.

[artguy360 1,843]

9 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

Heck, I hope to God that William Ross doesn't read the Tweets. Imagine writing so much music for a show like this, and yet seemingly everyone is praising a different composer for stuff you wrote... Ross should be getting way more credit than he is. Why is Holt getting virtually all the interviews? Where are the Ross interviews? Hardly anyone seems interested in actually highlighting him and his work for this; it's like he's just some guy whose name just happens to show up in the show's end credits and on a few tracks on the OST.

Ross was brought in to do clean-up. Like a pinch hitter or relief pitcher in baseball. Those roles rarely ever get media attention. I bet the only reason he got billing (unlike the other unnamed composers who worked with Holt) is because of his connection to JW.

[Jay 37,287]

12 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Where are the Ross interviews?

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34663-what-are-your-thoughts-on john-williams-new-theme-for-obi-wan/&do=findComment&comment=1893794

[Tydirium 1,166]

@Michael G. It's becoming more and more apparent that—the more that Disney gets involved in oversight of the production of them—these live-action shows are being made primarily for brand slave/consoomer normies, the kind of people who love to tell you they're a "Star Wars fan," and who have a ton of Star Wars Funko Pops on their shelf behind them, and maybe even attend Star Wars Celebration events or other conventions—but at the end of the day, don't know basic facts about the lore, mislabel major musical themes/motifs, etc.

 

Anyone who actually cares about maintaining a high level of internal consistency and overall quality of the franchise, is gradually being branded as a "hater," as someone who just can't be pleased—even though we have been plenty pleased by a lot of past Star Wars content. In some ways it feels like they're trying to rewrite history, in order to excuse a massive decline in quality and allow them to be downright lazy when it comes to production, canon continuity, etc.

 

Either way, at this point, there are just way too many cooks in the kitchen over at Lucasfilm; Mando seasons 1 and 2 were pretty great, but I think part of the reason for that was because Disney wasn't as involved. Once they realized they had a huge hit on their hands with Grogu, all they saw were $$$, and they quickly jumped in to take control of all the shows going forward. Hence one reason why Book of Boba Fett and Kenobi are (in my opinion) so bad. Remember, Mando S2 was already written and starting to film by the time Disney realized that Mando was a huge hit, so S2 was largely untainted by them. But by the time of BOBF, they had announced a gazillion shows, and it became clear they were now going to be micromanaging everything.

 

At this point, if you want good Star Wars, I feel like the place to find it is in the video games and animated shows. These manage to feel like Star Wars, with music that feels more traditional, and seem to be made by people who actually know what they're doing and who still care about the franchise. And because Disney doesn't seem to view animated shows as being as big of a deal as live-action shows, Disney thankfully doesn't seem to care so much about imposing their vision on the animated stuff. Which is great for the rest of us. But unless something really changes, I'm on the verge of giving up hope for great live-action SW content these days.

 

23 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34663-what-are-your-thoughts-on john-williams-new-theme-for-obi-wan/&do=findComment&comment=1893794

 

Missed this; thank you!

 

26 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

Ross was brought in to do clean-up. Like a pinch hitter or relief pitcher in baseball. Those roles rarely ever get media attention. I bet the only reason he got billing (unlike the other unnamed composers who worked with Holt) is because of his connection to JW.

 

It's just sad, because he's had a long career of mostly doing behind-the-scenes work. But it's a great career and resume nonetheless, and if anyone deserved to get to be in the limelight and score a major Star Wars show in a John-Williams-esque style, in my opinion it was him. Natalie Holt is young, and relatively inexperienced in comparison; she's still got decades ahead of her to hit it big with a major film or show like this. There was no reason she couldn't have instead scored a different SW show, someday down the road.

 

(Of course, this assumes that Ross would want/enjoy top composer billing on one of these shows; I guess it's possible he wouldn't, for whatever reason. But the point is, he deserves it.)

[Edmilson 7,388]

31 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

I'm on the verge of giving up hope for great live-action SW content these days.

Exactly how I feel. Between BOBF and Obi-Wan, most recent Star Wars content these days has been pure crap.

[Faleel 5,337]

4 hours ago, Andy said:

 

If this score had a color it would be grayish brown. 

 

 Timpani >>>> Tako Drums.  

 

 

1. Nope, not dry and muffled enough to be brown.

 

2. Racist!

[Arpy 4,145]

6 hours ago, Oswin Pond said:

 

You can add Christensen, Ahmed Best, Jake Lloyd, Rian Johnson and probably the worst of all George Lucas (Even today I still see people saying Lucas should kill himself) It's sadly a trend that keeps happening over and over again. I'll never understand why because even though I hate someone's work I won't attack the person personally. 

Don't forget J.J. Abrams. JWFans' favourite punching bag.

2 hours ago, DiamondFire said:

I wasn't joking. I haven't seen a CD or something that can PLAY a CD for many years.

Most retail entertainment stores sell CDs, I'm surprised you never encountered them!

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

They are phasing out though in most areas unfortunately. Best Buy I think completely got rid of them at least a year ago. My local Walmart had a CD isle up until a couple years ago, now they just sometimes have new releases on the isle cap, I think that also applies to my local Target.

 

To my knowledge Barnes & Noble is the only major national retailer that still has a good selection of CDs... for now.

[enderdrag64 624]

Most cars and computers no longer come with cd drives as well. 

If you want one nowadays you have to explicitly buy an optical drive, which probably isn't something most people do

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 269]

I still dig the score overall. Just hope Ross and Holt return to the franchise on different projects with more time. Hope Natalie gets The Acolyte and Ross gets Skeleton Crew.  But I have to say, at least the score in the show doesn't sound ripped apart and destroyed like Brian Tyler and Danny Elfman's scores for Age of Ultron or more recently, John Williams' score for The Rise of Skywalker. Young Leia is probably my favorite track outside of the main theme.


With that out of the way, where the hell did these discussions on Giacchino's Rogue One score come from????  This all news to me and I'm supposed to be the fangirl. LMFAO

[DarthDementous 1,059]

8 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Hardly surprising after the last 5 years and some of the vile commentary I've seen about Kathleen Kennedy, Daisy Ridley, Kelly Marie Tran, Moses Ingram...

 

There's an obvious theme going on here.

They're all bad actors? 

3 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Either way, at this point, there are just way too many cooks in the kitchen over at Lucasfilm; Mando seasons 1 and 2 were pretty great, but I think part of the reason for that was because Disney wasn't as involved. Once they realized they had a huge hit on their hands with Grogu, all they saw were $$$, and they quickly jumped in to take control of all the shows going forward. Hence one reason why Book of Boba Fett and Kenobi are (in my opinion) so bad. Remember, Mando S2 was already written and starting to film by the time Disney realized that Mando was a huge hit, so S2 was largely untainted by them. But by the time of BOBF, they had announced a gazillion shows, and it became clear they were now going to be micromanaging everything.

I would urge you to revisit The Mandalorian because it essentially set the very basic and un-nuanced structure that all Star Wars TV has been following so far, with Season 2 demonstrating their lack of confidence in a story isolated from the main players of the saga. It all seeded what the Obi Wan Kenobi show became

[GerateWohl 4,330]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Exactly how I feel. Between BOBF and Obi-Wan, most recent Star Wars content these days has been pure crap.

Except the animated series. Bad Batch and Clone Wars season 7 were good.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

19 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Except the animated series. Bad Batch and Clone Wars season 7 were good.

I would push back against this, Bad Batch is an incredibly aimless series that has a lot of the same issues as the Star Wars TV shows, even evoking similar tropes. TCW S7 is hard to get a bead on given most of it was developed before the Disney take-over so it's a bit of a production frankenstein

[Edmilson 7,388]

I haven't seen The Bad Batch, but according to the video below it has the same plot structure as Mandalorian, Boba Fett and Obi-Wan: a veteran warrior hardened by years of battle (or a group of them, in TBB's case) learns to take care of someone else, a child in Mando, Bad Batch and Obi-Wan, and the Tuskens in BOBF.

 

 

A lot of stories with great potential in the Star Wars galaxy and Disney prefers to tell the same story with slight variations. I wonder if Dave Filoni or someone at LF is a fan of The Last of Us...