Natalie Holt's OBI-WAN KENOBI (2022)

[Tydirium 1,166]

8 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

MMUK's review:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/07/01/obi-wan-kenobi-natalie-holt-william-ross-john-williams/

 

He rather liked the score, as he says on the conclusion:

 

 

Lol, no surprise there. It feels like he is usually positive towards scores.

[Edmilson 7,372]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

Lol, no surprise there. It feels like he is usually positive towards scores.

Yeah, his reviews are mostly positive, even if the score in question is not that good, like with this one. He even wrote glowing reviews about Balfe recently...

[lairdo 726]

6 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

https://www.slashfilm.com/915110/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-breaks-down-scoring-the-shows-biggest-scenes-interview/
 

another interview with holt (i hope it is new)

 

it makes it clear that deborah chow and her were not the ideal people for the project. How can they not want it to be too much ‘star wars’?

 

Why dont these people make their own sci-fi films or tv series? Why lucasfilm keeps hiring them instead of more swfan oriented directors?

 

Good find. I think Holt is doing a good job of being honest without being too bitter. It's easy to imagine she felt yanked around by the Lucasfilm powers.

 

I am not sure I read that Chow or Holt were the wrong people at all. I feel this is more saying that the direction they got (or assumed they had to go towards) was to be "different." Not because that is a big break with the past but more that they would not have been allowed to create something like Rogue One for Obi-Wan. Maybe I am not reading between the lines enough though.

 

I saw the video interview with Holt, and she exuded positivity. I hope this experience does not damper her excitement as a composer too much for whatever projects are the best fit for her.

 

The final episode (which I saw this week finally) just made me sad about the whole show and what could have been but was not.

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

5 hours ago, Edmilson said:

He rather liked the score, as he says on the conclusion:

 

Spoiler

As you can see, in my opinion there’s a lot to like here, and it’s to the credit of both Natalie Holt and William Ross that their music exists side-by-side without much of a clear delineation between the two writing styles, beyond Holt’s more expansive use of electronic textures and synth sweetening. I have read criticisms of Holt’s music in numerous places, calling it ‘insufferably generic’ and other vague pejoratives, but I don’t hear that at all, and considering the creative handcuffs she had to wear while composing much of this, I am very impressed with how much variation, scope, and depth she brought to the project – from the lightness and prettiness of her Obi Wan and Leia theme to the crushing ferocity of her Vader/Stormtrooper theme, and the different textures and styles that represent the different planets. When you add this to the classic orchestral sound of Ross’s writing, and the numerous interpolations of Willliams’s brilliant and memorable main theme, there isn’t much to criticize in terms of it being good music.

In context, though, that’s a different matter, and I remain baffled by the creative decisions that the director, the producers, and seemingly John Williams himself took to limit the use of the legacy Star Wars themes. In the end it might have been better if they had simply gone fully one way or fully the other – either let Natalie Holt go full Ludwig Göransson and create an entirely new sonic world, or let William Ross score the whole thing using all the John Williams legacy themes in the classic Star Wars style. The hybrid model we have, while absolutely enjoyable as a listening experience, is ultimately damaging to the dramatic narrative development of the actual story, and that’s basically unforgivable.

 

I partially disagree with the first half, but fully agree with the second.

 

Having a hybrid score like this was a bizarre choice, one that did not work, nor do I think could ever work. Having a fully Holt-composed non-star-wars-sounding score could I guess work, if the project she's working on had nothing to do with the legacy characters, etc. But given that this was supposed to literally be Episode 3.5, having that sort of score (and without the familiar themes we've come to expect) was an incompetent decision, by whomever made that call.

[greenturnedblue 372]

Hopefully Andor's score is a bit more competent.. I wonder if Britell will reprise Gia's Imperial theme from Rogue One, the imperial March and the stormtrooper motif

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I doubt it. After the kenobi fiasco Maybe they probably use the williams themes…

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

Michael Giacchino was brought in at the last minute to write a new theme for Andor, and William Ross rescored 1/3 of it.

[Tydirium 1,166]

10 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

https://www.slashfilm.com/915110/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-breaks-down-scoring-the-shows-biggest-scenes-interview/
 

another interview with holt (i hope it is new)

 

it makes it clear that deborah chow and her were not the ideal people for the project. How can they not want it to be too much ‘star wars’?

 

Why dont these people make their own sci-fi films or tv series? Why lucasfilm keeps hiring them instead of more swfan oriented directors?

 

It's kind of funny that this interview is titled "Natalie Holt Breaks Down Scoring the Show's Biggest Scenes," when she... didn't score the show's biggest scenes.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Indeed.

 

Anybody hates how she uses the term “Williams Team” as if he had some kind of collaborator group akin to Zimmer and the likes….

[artguy360 1,842]

13 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

https://www.slashfilm.com/915110/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-breaks-down-scoring-the-shows-biggest-scenes-interview/
 

another interview with holt (i hope it is new)

 

it makes it clear that deborah chow and her were not the ideal people for the project. How can they not want it to be too much ‘star wars’?

 

Why dont these people make their own sci-fi films or tv series? Why lucasfilm keeps hiring them instead of more swfan oriented directors?

From this interview, it seems like Lucasfilm higher ups maintain quite a grip on these productions. This interview suggests not even the director has final say on the music, but rather Kathleen Kennedy or other higher ups. Honestly sounds like a nightmare working environment. I appreciate Holt's honesty in this interview. 

[LSH 968]

I have to admit, I quite like the melodic stuff in Young Leia and Days Of Alderaan... It's not 'Star Wars' sounding stuff but I bet that it would sound great somewhere else.

 

As others have said, the light percussive nature of the Young Leia cue does have a bit of John Powell about it, when you compare it to the final half of Chewie Untamed from Solo.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

 

 

Dang it, Deborah! Bad decision!

[Toillion 212]

The article mentions that at first they didn’t think they would be allowed to use any of the old themes. Then that Williams gave permission for them to use the themes in the last episode. Why would they not be allowed to use Star Wars music in Star Wars? Do they ask Williams for permission just as a courtesy? 
 

Also, how dumb are they to use some of the most epic music from the prequels in the trailer to only go in the other direction. 

[DangerMotif 1,037]

14 minutes ago, Toillion said:

Also, how dumb are they to use some of the most epic music from the prequels in the trailer to only go in the other direction. 

^^^^^^^^

9 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

I wonder if Britell will reprise Gia's Imperial theme from Rogue One, the imperial March and the stormtrooper motif

Not gonna happen

[Exar Xan 1]

Has somebody here made a detailed breakdown of the right chronological order of the tracks and in which episodes they appear? I would love to see one.

Thanks!

[Richard Penna 3,667]

I had my first proper listen on a couple of car journeys this weekend and I really like this album. I'll be buying it the nanosecond I can find it for a reasonable price.

 

There's a contrast between Ross' and Holt's work but I think they compliment each other nicely - we get a period of more modern, synth-aided music, then Ross comes in with a more subdued, orchestral treatment, although his action material in one of the cues is also nice. I also noticed her using JW's theme a few times.

 

Initial favourite tracks are Daiyu, Sensing Vader, Empire Arrival and a couple of the action cues. Some of her action is pretty rubbish - it's clearly not her strength, and as a general defender of Holt in this matter, she's definitely better at the dramatic/emotional material.

 

And for the record, Order 66 is by far the worst cue on the album. I find it as astonishing as most people here that the showrunners though that was a good way to score that scene. Don't say I'm a complete Holt apologist  

 

I could see the entire show being scored by Ross and it would probably sound fine but I don't think there's anything inherently objectionable about Holt's approach - it's modern and doesn't use the SW themes much - but it allowed her to put her stamp on a piece of the SW universe.

 

20 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Lol, no surprise there. It feels like he is usually positive towards scores.

 

Yes, but he's also made I think a very good point: there's no need to denigrate Holt's work - they should just have ideally gone one way or another. Let Holt (et al) create the musical sound entirely or keep with tradition. Either JWFan could have embraced a Ross score, or just ignored/embraced Holt's work.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

I don't think there's anything inherently objectionable about Holt's approach - it's modern and doesn't use the SW themes much - but it allowed her to put her stamp on a piece of the SW universe.

LoL… that is a résumé of my objections 😝

[Dave 217]

7 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

 

The last seasons of Game of Thrones made more sense than this. Letting Williams write a new theme for Obi seems to be wrong way when you want a "minimal and modern" score.

[karelm 2,902]

9 hours ago, Toillion said:

The article mentions that at first they didn’t think they would be allowed to use any of the old themes. Then that Williams gave permission for them to use the themes in the last episode. Why would they not be allowed to use Star Wars music in Star Wars? Do they ask Williams for permission just as a courtesy? 
 

Also, how dumb are they to use some of the most epic music from the prequels in the trailer to only go in the other direction. 

Yes, it's a courtesy.  He has no legal ownership of it.  Composers generally do not own their music, studios do.  In low budget or indie, there are more exceptions to this because copyright ownership can allow for additional payment.  He would get paid a "writer's share" if they use his material, but it gets complex.  For example, if in sixty seconds, they use 10 seconds of JW's material, he gets a small cut of 50% of payment for that cue (and all of this has exceptions).  This is basically the studio and producers say they revere JW's contribution to such an extent, that he is so much a part of the DNA of the films, his input is valued.  No one has to adhere to it or have an obligation to ask him, it's a courtesy.  If he said, "I really hate the way my material was used", they could ignore his feedback and that would just make it all the harder to secure his involvement in other projects. 

Gordy Haab mentioned in his contract on Star Wars games, where he does a fantastic job conjuring the aura of the JW prequel sound, he said each cue he composed had a period of approval by three groups: Disney, the game producers, and JW.  JW probably didn't hear much of it, but was allowed an opportunity to weigh in.  Gordy said he only heard comment on one or two cues and the feedback was general in terms of creative choices made such as "I wouldn't have done that there" and Gordy complied.  These weren't major issues, just minor stylistic tweaks to make it feel more authentic.  Disney, the producers, or Gordy could have said no, I'm sticking with my instinct which could have been career limiting if in future projects, JW indicates disappointment in the musical approach.  Also keep in mind almost universally, JW is revered by musicians and composers especially those a generation or so after him who grew up with his sounds in our heads.  Hearing feedback is a bit like hearing the voice of god.  There really aren't any parallels.

[GerateWohl 4,322]

This all doesn't sound like they really had to be afraid to not be allowed to use Williams' music. But keeping it out is a way to prevent his judgment on it. 

Maybe doing their own thing just limited the probability of rework and the effort of familiarization with the original material.

 

[karelm 2,902]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

This all doesn't sound like they really had to be afraid to not be allowed to use Williams' music. But keeping it out is a way to prevent his judgment on it. 

Maybe doing their own thing just limited the probability of rework and the effort of familiarization with the original material.

 

I don't think it's about "fearing" to not be allowed to use the music but trying to have different styles...a more contemporary approach and old school approach.  You can think of this creatively in other aspects too.  They are not directing the series with Lucas' visual style either.  They're trying to do their own thing in that universe.  They aren't using plastic models (as far as I know) but using CGI vfx - they are using modern tools and approaches while trying to stay true to the original.  That's what I'm hearing with the music.  The composer was given liberties and I thought she did a very fine job doing her thing without yielding to pressure to mimic what came before.  I think the same was the case with Giacchino in Rogue One.  He wasn't doing JW, he was doing Giacchino's version of Star Wars.  I think that's a wise move.  In five seconds of blind taste test, no one will confuse that JW did not compose Rogue One.  

[GerateWohl 4,322]

12 minutes ago, karelm said:

I don't think it's about "fearing" to not be allowed to use the music but trying to have different styles...a more contemporary approach and old school approach.  You can think of this creatively in other aspects too.  They are not directing the series with Lucas' visual style either.  They're trying to do their own thing in that universe.  They aren't using plastic models (as far as I know) but using CGI vfx - they are using modern tools and approaches while trying to stay true to the original.  That's what I'm hearing with the music.  The composer was given liberties and I thought she did a very fine job doing her thing without yielding to pressure to mimic what came before.  I think the same was the case with Giacchino in Rogue One.  He wasn't doing JW, he was doing Giacchino's version of Star Wars.  I think that's a wise move.  In five seconds of blind taste test, no one will confuse that JW did not compose Rogue One.  

But that's exactly where I feel Chow and Holt failed. The comparison with Rogue one is a good example.

First of all about trying to have different styles. Giacchino's score created a palette of new themes. But he did not really try to have different styles. Stylistically, he sticks quite close to the classical Star Wars sound. For good reasons.

Story wise I would say Kenobi is even closer to the movies than Rogue One. Apart from shortly Vader (which is underscored with the imerial march) there is just  Tarkin (who never really had a musical identity an five seconds of Leia. Kenobi has almost permanently characters from the main saga around, like many said, episode 3.5.

 

The decision, like you said, to redesign the series visually and musically, is something that I cannot really understand. It is too many changes at a time to really keep the Star Wars spirit. Chow might have done a fine job in defining a new visual style with a new sound. But she failed by that at making Star Wars. One of the two might have worked. Two is too much.

Might have worked with an unrelated story and different characters like in The Mandalorian. Fails in a story about Obi-Wan Kenobi, Leia, Vader, Luke etc.

And, let's face it, Star Wars is probably the one and only franchise, where all those Star Wars fan composers would have the opportunity to write a classical orchestral score. But after Giacchino and Powel (and partly in Visions) noone did that.

And if someone says, Chow just didn't want something oldfashioned, but new, I would respond, Williams' scores for the sequels don't sound old fashioned to me at all. It's just good music. But it seems to be a level and a quality in orchestral writing that isn't widely available out there.

And how could it be? JW Williams was about 50 when he wrote TESB and had about 25 years experience as composer in the business, not talking of his musical education and capabilities and experience as a performer, which is really a thing in my mind for a composer. He was 82 when he wrote The Force Awakens. Who should be able to catch up with that, who is more or less at the beginning of her or his composer carreer?

 

[1977 1,743]

Dear NuLucasfilm

 

Please hire seasoned composers with a proven ability to write in the symphonic idiom while honouring the musical template set out by John Williams for your future Star Wars projects.

 

This is not the place for trying to reinvent the wheel or give newbies their big break, there are plenty of other projects out there for that.

 

If in doubt, please give Seth MacFarlane a call.

 

Ta.

[Tom Guernsey 2,277]

1 minute ago, JTWfan77 said:

Dear NuLucasfilm, please hire seasoned composers with a proven ability to write in the symphonic idiom while honouring the musical template set out by John Williams for your future Star Wars projects. This is not the place for trying to reinvent the wheel or give newbies their big break, there are plenty of other projects out there for that.

Or to put it another way, Joel McNeely the shit out of this mofo…

[bollemanneke 3,334]

So MovieMUsic says JW didn't want his themes to be used extensively. What do we think about this?

Is JW being senselessly difficult?

Is this his way of telling Disney he's sick and tired of the butchering of something he (inexplicably) sees as a/his work of art while to the rest of the world it just means MONEY MONEY MONEY?

But in that case, why did he agree to do the ST?

[TownerFan 4,983]

19 hours ago, karelm said:

Yes, it's a courtesy.  He has no legal ownership of it.  Composers generally do not own their music, studios do.  In low budget or indie, there are more exceptions to this because copyright ownership can allow for additional payment.  He would get paid a "writer's share" if they use his material, but it gets complex.  For example, if in sixty seconds, they use 10 seconds of JW's material, he gets a small cut of 50% of payment for that cue (and all of this has exceptions).  This is basically the studio and producers say they revere JW's contribution to such an extent, that he is so much a part of the DNA of the films, his input is valued.  No one has to adhere to it or have an obligation to ask him, it's a courtesy.  If he said, "I really hate the way my material was used", they could ignore his feedback and that would just make it all the harder to secure his involvement in other projects. 

Gordy Haab mentioned in his contract on Star Wars games, where he does a fantastic job conjuring the aura of the JW prequel sound, he said each cue he composed had a period of approval by three groups: Disney, the game producers, and JW.  JW probably didn't hear much of it, but was allowed an opportunity to weigh in.  Gordy said he only heard comment on one or two cues and the feedback was general in terms of creative choices made such as "I wouldn't have done that there" and Gordy complied.  These weren't major issues, just minor stylistic tweaks to make it feel more authentic.  Disney, the producers, or Gordy could have said no, I'm sticking with my instinct which could have been career limiting if in future projects, JW indicates disappointment in the musical approach.  Also keep in mind almost universally, JW is revered by musicians and composers especially those a generation or so after him who grew up with his sounds in our heads.  Hearing feedback is a bit like hearing the voice of god.  There really aren't any parallels.

 

John's music is indeed part of the DNA of Star Wars and the fact that it's still so relevant speaks volumes about how crucial this is to its identity. Of course Star Wars needs to evolve, so it's a complete right of the actual owners to explore new paths also musically (see The Mandalorian). I think one of the issues of this Obi-Wan show was perhaps the uncertainty that lingered even very late into the process of either traveling a new road or go on a familiar path (at least according to what Holt said to the press). The end result is a strange mixture of both.

 

I would only add that a "modern" approach feels kind of awkward in a Star Wars setting because it sounds like the music only stays on the surface instead of going deeper emotionally, which is the actual value of a film score. In her interview, Holt mentions the "big sweeping Star Wars sound that everybody wants", but in my opinion the success of Williams' approach cannot be reduced just to the big symphonic sound. It's how the music is shaped throughout the narrative, how it plays a dramatic role in the context of the story and its characters and how he always uses a symphonic vernacular to add dimension and depth to what we're seeing.

[GerateWohl 4,322]

I would like to add one aspect, that used to be mentioned in context of Williams' Star Wars music: Timelessness

 

There is a reason, why in spite of all the changes to the original movies by Georg Lucas he more or less left the music as it was. 

 

I predict, The new scores, Kenobi, The Mandalorian, are not going to age very well. However the musical fashion of motion picture scores will evolve, these modern scores with their RPC hybrid electronic/orchestra/taiko drum sound bricks will be seen a typical period scores. 

 

[Richard Penna 3,667]

I'd say the fear of being dated is a bit overstated. I've been listening to Gladiator a few times over recent weeks and the battle music, which many criticize, sounds like it could've been written yesterday. I think you've got to go much further back to the more early 90s-sounding scores to find music that really sounds dated, mainly due to the synthesized sounds they used.

[1977 1,743]

The symphonic sound typified by JW's Star Wars is timeless. The stuff Holt did is not.

[Richard Penna 3,667]

Meh, I like it. 

[1977 1,743]

Which is perfectly fine, to each their own.

[badbu 123]

I really like this cue  the rest is meh

 

 

[Andy 4,071]

On 27/06/2022 at 7:09 PM, Andy said:

Indeed. This RCP sound will be dated a few decades from now, while William’s symphonic fairy tale score will remain forever timeless. 

 

5 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I would like to add one aspect, that used to be mentioned in context of Williams' Star Wars music: Timelessness

 

There is a reason, why in spite of all the changes to the original movies by Georg Lucas he more or less left the music as it was. 

 

I predict, The new scores, Kenobi, The Mandalorian, are not going to age very well. However the musical fashion of motion picture scores will evolve, these modern scores with their RPC hybrid electronic/orchestra/taiko drum sound bricks will be seen a typical period scores. 

 

 

Yep!

 

3 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

The symphonic sound typified by JW's Star Wars is timeless. The stuff Holt did is not.

 

I concur!

[DangerMotif 1,037]

she now says she was offered the job in December, a bit late? She also says she first met with Debroah after Loki which contradicts the other article

[michael_grig 464]

Now that I've looked at the music again after a few days, these are the tracks I've added to my film score playlist:

 

Obi-Wan: well, of course XD! This is by far the best track on this album. But I kind of want the reworked version from the Star Wars Celebration as a studio recording, because it has that nice C minor chord at the end before it resolves to C major. The Ab major on the album version sounds pretty flat in comparison: 

(6:45)

 

Inquisitor's Hunt: I really like the Inquisitor's Theme. I just can't listen to it without tapping along to that cool syncopated rhythm. 

 

Young Leia: The best track from Natalie Holt. Leia's theme is really so beautiful to listen to, it has this childlike but very euphoric sound that I love. I get annoyed every time that this track is over as quickly as it came upon us XD.

 

Hold Hands: I could also imagine the score quite well with this theme as Obi-Wan theme....

 

Overcoming the Past: I don't understrand why 'I Will do What I Must' is more appreciated than this one. The choir in here sounds at least a bit more realistic than in 'I Will do What I Must'. The rendition of Holt's/Ross' Vader theme is thrilling, the Imperial March performance is ... okay.... (God, I hate this timpani sound!)

 

Saying Goodbye: Has that nice farewell sound, the legacy theme statements are awesome. 

 

End Credit: Again a cool arrangement of JW's theme, the ending is really cool with this typical ritardando of the ostinato with the piano and then the harp arpeggio.

 

What I generally take away from the score:

Combining the modern style with JW's style doesn't really work.

I think by going on this double track, there was no real continuity, which made it a very rough experience.

 

To be perfectly honest, and I feel uncomfortable writing this, but maybe the show would have gone better without JW's contribution, because then William Ross wouldn't have had to step in and Natalie Holt could have put more focus on her (thematic) work. From what I can tell from 'Hold Hands', her Obi-Wan theme would have been very appropriate as well.

(But that John Williams has given us another Star Wars piece is, just in its own terms, fantastic!!!!)

 

Contrary to my expectations, I kind of liked the fact that so few thematic references were used (I know many see it differently).

 

William Ross definitely deserves credit as co-composer, he scored the final battle, the end credits and did most of the thematic work for Obi-Wan. I think it was all a very unfortunate coincidence. JW's theme probably just came too late, and then Natalie Holt can't just replace all the statements of her theme on her own in that short amount of time, obviously.

 

But it's good to know that Ross at least wasn't treated as a ghostwriter, but that he got the credit he deserved for his work, at least formally, on the album. Unfortunately, that didn't go over 100% with the public. 

[Faleel 5,326]

I dont hear too much of a difference in the Timpani sound in this, and how it sounds in ROTS....

[michael_grig 464]

i kinda know what you mean:

 

(11:14)

this is pretty much the worst transition in the history of star wars music.

 

But the timpani sound is not as bad as in Obi-Wan. In ROTS it wasn't recorded with a microphone that close.

 

Listen to this from Anakin's Dark Deeds, the timpani sounds passable:

 

this is much worse:

If you listen to it in comparison, you can hear that here the timpani does not connect organically with the rest of the orchestra at all, but rather seems to be like added on top.

[greenturnedblue 372]

26 minutes ago, Michael G. said:

i kinda know what you mean:

 (11:14)

this is pretty much the worst transition in the history of star wars music.

 

video unavailable

[Mephariel 451]

On 29/06/2022 at 12:37 PM, David Gawne said:

If you delete the Holt material and just have an 8 track album of Ross tracks it`s a really sad tease of what could have been if he had been allowed to score the entire series. It`s nice to listen to Williams` Obi-Wan theme then hear what Ross does with it through the other 6 tracks then the end credits. If he had been allowed the whole series imagine what else he could have done. I don`t hate Holts score but actually that`s the problem it`s just blah. It neither infuriates or inspires. It`s adequate. That`s not Star Wars. Why do we have to put up with Disney hiring these 'That`ll do' composers when we have people like Joel McNeely, Gordy Haab who know how to score Star Wars.  Bruce Broughton and John Debney are both big Disney guys and they would give us a stonker of a Star Wars score. Is this what the future of Star Wars music sounds like? Like it`s been copied and pasted from a million other movies and shows. I`m not saying people shouldn`t try new things as i like The Mandalorian theme and Bobba Fett and they sound nothing like Williams but it really gets to me when i`m listening to a score for a Star Wars product and i`m bored. 

 

I hate to say it but now that I listened to the score, I think you are right. Holt's music isn't bad, but it just doesn't differentiate itself from your typical modern scoring of this genre. A lot of snaring drums, looping ostinatos, and rumbling horns. She is at her best when she score more dramatic character moments and locals like "Young Leia" and  "Mapuzo." I also agree that William Ross's cue set is better than Holts. Not too inspired either, but it just got a bit more soul to it. I also say that even Williams' Obi Wan theme sounds weary. Never felt like it truly went somewhere. The only part I disagree with is that guys like Debney and Haab are the answer. I think Williams and Ross both need to let Star Wars go. Just move away from the trying to imitate the Williams sound. 

On 29/06/2022 at 8:06 PM, artguy360 said:

Listening to the OST again, it's clear to me that the action music by Holt is what brings down the score the most. Her music for Leia and the more melodic stuff are not bad at all. The action music though is just modern movie noise and drums. 

 

 

Yeah agree 100%. Wish she get to score more of a Star Wars drama next time. 

On 02/07/2022 at 4:13 PM, artguy360 said:

From this interview, it seems like Lucasfilm higher ups maintain quite a grip on these productions. This interview suggests not even the director has final say on the music, but rather Kathleen Kennedy or other higher ups. Honestly sounds like a nightmare working environment. I appreciate Holt's honesty in this interview. 

 

I am surprise anyone would want to work on a Star Wars movies. You start writing your own music and then the producer intrudes, then the president, then Williams, then Ross. After that, you have a legion of fans with preconceived expectations of what the music should be. Is anything truly your choice? 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

[Mephariel 451]

17 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I would like to add one aspect, that used to be mentioned in context of Williams' Star Wars music: Timelessness

 

There is a reason, why in spite of all the changes to the original movies by Georg Lucas he more or less left the music as it was. 

 

I predict, The new scores, Kenobi, The Mandalorian, are not going to age very well. However the musical fashion of motion picture scores will evolve, these modern scores with their RPC hybrid electronic/orchestra/taiko drum sound bricks will be seen a typical period scores. 

 

 

Scores like Kenobi, The Mandalorian, and a lot of RCP inspired scores won't be timeless because they are not memorable enough to be timeless. You don't need WIlliams' style for something to be timeless. Journey to the Line is still being played today in commercials and concerts. Gladiator is the same. Figure skaters in the last Olympics used Gladiator as background music to their performances. I would argued the only Star Wars scores that will be timeless are John Williams. I am not even sure John Powell's score will be remember as fondly. I don't think Giacchino's Rogue One score will be timeless either although the Erso theme seems to have some lasting power.

 

In the end, John Williams' scores are timeless because of John Williams, not because he used big orchestra. 90% of big orchestral scores are not timeless.

 

Lastly, I am not sure if today's composers care all that much about timelessness. Is that even really their ambition? I think composers today wants to be inventive, unique, with the distinction of having avant-garde prestige. I see them more like young techies. Maybe their technology will become defunct in 5 years, but they are ok with that. That is part of working in Silicon Valley. You move on to the next big thing.  

 

  

[greenturnedblue 372]

Anyone else think the Mando main theme might be the most iconic TV theme of the decade? I think it is definitely instantly recognisable and memorable and therefore 'timeless'. A perfect example star wars music does not need to fit within the the John Williams mould to be successful

 

My main gripe with the Holt material is just that it isn't very good, in general, not that it isn't good star wars music 

 

Also I don't really see a problem with today's new composers trying to be inventive and unique (see success of Mando theme). Imagine if film music never evolved past its humble beginnings. We would be listening to the same kind of scores as people did 100 years ago! Composers like Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, Gorranson, Clint Mansell, Vangelis even Zimmer and artists like Daft Punk have been pushing the envelope, successfully. If they are not successful I don't know what is

 

But with anything, there is a time and a place for new things, and the Kenobi show was not one of them

[HunterTech 982]

Yeah, the whole timeless argument rings a little hollow to me, given that a lot of people still listen to plenty of 70s-90s songs that most definitely aren't in fashion currently with modern music.

 

Hell, if we wanted to stay in the realm of synth in film scores, then Blade Runner very easily stands out as a score that is has remained evocative and fresh all these years later.

 

It was put best a couple of posts earlier: it matters more if the material is actually interesting and engaging than if it stylistically is very pedestrian.

 

Also, given MV/RCP has been the it thing for almost 2 decades (over if you feel they dominated part of the 90s), maybe we should start talking about if they hold up after the trends have actually fully shifted.

[artguy360 1,842]

1 hour ago, Mephariel said:

 

I am surprise anyone would want to work on a Star Wars movies. You start writing your own music and then the producer intrudes, then the president, then Williams, then Ross. After that, you have a legion of fans with preconceived expectations of what the music should be. Is anything truly your choice? 

 

Everything Star Wars seems incredibly micro-managed by Lucasfilm. They've replaced directors, composers, writers, announced projects only to scrap them. Aside from Filoni and Fav, it seems like no one at Lucasfilm has a clear idea of what Star Wars is or should be. And yet, they don't trust the creatives they hire to execute their own vision.

[greenturnedblue 372]

Amazing that Disney, the biggest entertainment conglomerate on the planet, cannot make one successful Star Wars movie. Beyond comprehension

[GerateWohl 4,322]

3 hours ago, Mephariel said:

Lastly, I am not sure if today's composers care all that much about timelessness. Is that even really their ambition? I think composers today wants to be inventive, unique, with the distinction of having avant-garde prestige.

For that ambition these today's composers sound surprisingly equal to eachother.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

I consider the Silent Hill soundtracks to be timeless and they feature minimal orchestral elements

For me in this context, I see 'timeless' as meaning that this score fits the universe it was created for so well, that it doesn't matter how much time passes because there will never be another approach that exemplifies everything the franchise stands for and the kind of overall tone it is trying to convey. I can't imagine Silent Hill with Akira Yamaoka's soundscape just as much as I can't image Star Wars without John Williams', and in both cases that soundscape is much broader and more malleable than people give it credit for - but it is not infinite. You can still break the soundscape and end up with something good, but it won't ever be timeless

The Mandalorian is a good example, the main theme is the most traditionally scored aspect of the entire show and incidentally is the one thing that has transcended into the public consciousness

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,429]

After few listenings, I've come to select only 9 cues that I've reorganised into my first personal assembly that I'm sharing here if some are interrested, almost no Holt though

 

[Jay 37,268]

6 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Anyone else think the Mando main theme might be the most iconic TV theme of the decade?

 

Yea

[GerateWohl 4,322]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

7 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Anyone else think the Mando main theme might be the most iconic TV theme of the decade?

 

Yea

That says more about the decade and the TV themes of the decade than about the Mando main theme itself.