Natalie Holt's OBI-WAN KENOBI (2022)

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

She is giving a heck lot of interviews… one would think that shewould like to play a low profile…

 

anyway if chow prevented her from doing a williamesque soundtrack, thats very sad because she might have provided a decent score. Maybe only williams theme would have been necessary and no other rescoring. I feel sad for her now. Probably it was not her fault.

 

hope that chow doesnt get more works in the sw universe.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

Either way I'm glad she's doing all these interviews. It's given us a lot of insight into what happened, and we practically have the whole picture at this point (or at least enough information to piece it all together), instead of being left in the dark only being able to guess at what went down as usual.

[artguy360 1,843]

Forgive the slightly odd question but is there a dedicated thread for discussing non-JW Star Wars music? 

 

I know many individual projects have their own thread, but is there one for all of it in one place?

[DarthDementous 1,059]

5 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

Forgive the slightly odd question but is there a dedicated thread for discussing non-JW Star Wars music? 

 

I know many individual projects have their own thread, but is there one for all of it in one place?

Funnily enough I was actually thinking of creating something similar for non-JW uses of JW themes, so I would definitely be interested in a thread like this

[artguy360 1,843]

7 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

I haven't finished the interview yet but damn I would've liked to have heard some of her earlier theme ideas. She says that she wrote a lot of Williams-esque themes and Deborah Chow didn't like any of them, the only early theme she approved was the RCP-like inquisitor theme

And she said she did 17 versions of the young Leia theme! Sounds like the whole process was not great for Holt. Even after Chow approved a major theme, it had to go to Kennedy for her feedback and approval. That process sounds awful.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

The interviews give me the vibe that the final product wasn’t really her vision and that she is not the villain of this situation

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

I never blame the composer (except for Hans of course! )

 

The film music industry can be a pretty dark and unforgiving place from the many stories I've heard from those on the inside. I love writing music, and that is exactly why I don't think I'd ever want to become a professional film composer.

[greenturnedblue 372]

KK should just score it herself if she doesnt trust Holt to do a good enough job

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

Although KK and the executives had to give their OK, it definitely sounds like Deborah Chow was the driving force for why the music wasn't all that great. If anything I'd be willing to bet KK was the one who wanted John to come in and "fix" the score, so to speak.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

That latest interview is a bit strange, but I get more of a vibe that she's not used to being asked about these things in detail, nor the attention her score is getting, and stumbles a bit.

 

15 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

one would think that shewould like to play a low profile…

 

Why would she want to do that?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

9 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Although KK and the executives had to give their OK, it definitely sounds like Deborah Chow was the driving force for why the music wasn't all that great. If anything I'd be willing to bet KK was the one who wanted John to come in and "fix" the score, so to speak.

Yeah I think that's what likely happened given KK and JW's working relationship.  

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Why would she want to do that?

Because she has been half rejected and most people are praising unknowingly the parts she didnt score….

[Jay 37,281]

Another Holt interview

 

https://gizmodo.com/obi-wan-kenobi-music-natalie-holt-john-williams-intervi-1849166218

 

 

"

io9: That’s so cool. Now, you mentioned that you found out John Williams was going to do a new theme, which is incredibly exciting, and that it wasn’t a given you’d be able to use his original music. So talk about the conversations of when and how to use John Williams’ music.

Holt: The whole thing with John’s permission [is] literally they were like, “If John doesn’t give us permission for us to use his music, we cannot use it.” So that was the thing. John watched it through in January and...he pinpointed where we were allowed to use it. And then [composer] Bill Ross adapted things and worked with John on adapting his theme for those areas that they identified. Then the other bit was kind of left down to me to score.

So it wasn’t me making the decision about where John’s music was going to come in. But then once I knew where it was going to go, I could sort of lead into it. And so with the Vader theme, I was using the “Imperial March” rhythmic element underneath on the drums. [hums some deep notes] Like that’s underneath but over the top, there’s something dark and more kind of atonal. I used a hunting horn and pitch-shifted double basses and just like the low end of the orchestra to create this dread. I know you can’t please everybody, but yeah, we tried our best to make it a balance between the old and the new and make it feel like it was leading to earning those moments in episode six.

 

io9: Speaking of Williams’ music, the teaser trailer for Obi-Wan Kenobi had both “Duel of the Fates” and “Battle of the Heroes” in it. Obviously, that’s a marketing decision you have nothing to do with, but when you heard that, were you worried it would set up unrealistic expectations since those songs aren’t in the show?

Holt: It’s really tricky. I don’t know. It’s just not my decision. I don’t have anything to do with it. I didn’t have anything to do with where John placed his music or allowed those moments to come through. It’s all run through higher powers and different departments. But yeah, it does feel a little misleading, I suppose, because those pieces are iconic and they’re so exciting. I don’t know... I’d like to look back and see if that music was connected to The Mandalorian trailers. But, yeah perhaps it feels like it could have been something in the Obi world that would have made it more tied together with what we were trying to do, sure.

"

 

 

 

I mean, that just all sounds so... not the proper way to score a television show

[Richard Penna 3,669]

20 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

anyway if chow prevented her from doing a williamesque soundtrack, thats very sad because she might have provided a decent score

 

It got a decent score. Not everyone has to sound like John Williams. You've got 9 other scores to listen to if you want his SW sound - can't you let a few other composers have their moment?

[Evanus 216]

It seems odd to me that Williams would have that kind of power. In the end, doesn't Lucasfilm own the themes? I mean, they were used all the time in Clone Wars, Rebels, the video games, etc...

[Holko 9,499]

34 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

can't you let a few other composers have their moment?

Except she didn't have her moment, they ground her ideas down to this bland... thing that is much of her final score.

[artguy360 1,843]

From Holt's interviews, the whole soundtrack process continues to sound like a nightmare. I wonder why it was handled so badly? For example why was there uncertainty around JW's involvement and use of his themes? I would have thought Solo provided a good template. I personally do not believe the "JW called up Kathleen Kennedy one day and said I'd really like to write a theme for Ben" story. That just seems weird. I imagine Lucasfilm would have wanted to have JW's involvement locked in pretty early. Maybe it was a schedule thing. But considering how much William Ross music ended up in the show, it seems like someone panicked about Holt's score and got JW and Bill Ross' to do a patch job.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

It got a decent score. Not everyone has to sound like John Williams. You've got 9 other scores to listen to if you want his SW sound - can't you let a few other composers have their moment?

 

I would normally agree, but it seems that she didn't get to write the music she wanted to, so in the end it's not even her score. It's a corporate think-tank score with her attempting to write a shell around it.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

Then just ignore it? I just don't listen to scores I don't like.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

5 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

I personally do not believe the "JW called up Kathleen Kennedy one day and said I'd really like to write a theme for Ben" story.

 

Absolutely. I can't imagine John logging onto Twitter (or using an electronic device in general ) and being like "hey, they're doing an Obi-Wan television show? I gotta get in on that!"

 

He was clearly asked to be involved. And whether or not he even wanted to do it at first, who knows?

[Brando 1,855]

2 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Absolutely. I can't imagine John logging onto Twitter (or using an electronic device in general ) and being like "hey, they're doing an Obi-Wan television show? I gotta get in on that!"

 

He was clearly asked to be involved. And whether or not he even wanted to do it at first, who knows?

"Joseph, have you seen the news?! Nevermind now, I'll call you later, I need to speak with Kathy real quick."

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

7 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Then just ignore it? I just don't listen to scores I don't like.

 

Well personally, I have been ignoring the score, although I am very fascinated by the whole behind-the-scenes situation 

 

But then again; who's to say this isn't going to happen again? Or become the new norm for Star Wars productions going forward? So it is fascinating, but also potentially worrisome at the same time.

[Toillion 213]

I wonder Holt is hurting her relationship with Lucasfilm/Disney with what she is saying I’m interviews. She’s may be speaking the truth but it definitely makes lucasfilm look bad with their decisions and micromanaging. 

[crumbs 14,299]

27 minutes ago, Toillion said:

I wonder Holt is hurting her relationship with Lucasfilm/Disney with what she is saying I’m interviews. She’s may be speaking the truth but it definitely makes lucasfilm look bad with their decisions and micromanaging. 

 

She's certainly pulled back the curtain on the nightmarish reality creatives face in the modern film/TV industry.

 

These shows are just products, content for a streaming service. Designed by committee and supervised by corporates without a creative bone in their bodies.

 

As more context comes to light, it's hard not to feel sympathy for Holt. The final product clearly wasn't her vision for the score. Maybe that's why she's giving so many interviews; refocusing the blame from angry fans to the corporate system that created this mess?

[Edmilson 7,384]

Don't feel sad for Holt, though. She has just been Emmy nominated for her Loki score.

[mstrox 6,643]

2 hours ago, Toillion said:

I wonder Holt is hurting her relationship with Lucasfilm/Disney with what she is saying I’m interviews. She’s may be speaking the truth but it definitely makes lucasfilm look bad with their decisions and micromanaging. 

I had the same suspicions but it looks like she just locked down S2 of Loki amid all of this, so I guess she’s doing all right! 

[Tydirium 1,166]

9 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

It got a decent score. Not everyone has to sound like John Williams. You've got 9 other scores to listen to if you want his SW sound - can't you let a few other composers have their moment?

 

Who said everyone has to sound like John Williams? How many times do we have to say that we are fine with people who don't sound like John Williams for virtually every other Star Wars show but this one? I mean, what about "This show is basically Episode 3.5" do you not get? This wasn't just some other random Star Wars show, it was marketed heavily with PT music, it was set right between ROTS and ANH, it featured the return of multiple PT actors, and it was extremely important to the overall saga story. Why should things like Battlefront and Fallen Order get scores performed by the LSO that are written to sound just like JW's Star Wars universe, but not a show like this? Aside from Ross' contributions, even a lot of music in The Clone Wars, Rebels, Bad Batch, Visions, etc. has sounded closer to JW than this show.

 

You seem to think that anybody who disliked Holt's score for Kenobi, has a problem with letting "a few other composers have their moment"... even though many of us are fine with—and even enjoy—scores like Ludwig Gorransson's Mando, Shirley's Boba Fett, and are looking forward to Britell's Andor. Those scores don't need to sound anything like JW, and I haven't said a word against them. So why are you acting as though we're all a bunch of JW purists, who can't handle any Star Wars music that doesn't sound like JW? This "let a few other composers have their moment" is getting old and sounds like a strawman.

 

Sorry if I am coming across as harsh, but I just don't get what is so difficult about noticing that this particular show is different from the others, and noticing that the people who are critical of the music in this, aren't in fact opposed to other composers having their moment. And it's not just people here at JWFan who feel like this; you don't have to look far online to find plenty of people who wish this show had a more classic Star Wars sound. I'm fine with literally every other show sounding like whatever style its composer wants it to sound like, so why is it such an outrageous thing for me to want just this one show to sound like JW's Star Wars? I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

[GerateWohl 4,326]

This argument "not everyone has to sound like John Williams" implies in a way, that John Williams always sounds the same. But he doesn't in my opinion. He created a specific Star Wars sound. And that are not just his famous themes.

 

Problem is rather that other composers often only have always one same sound when it comes to orchestral adventure music. And if they get a Star Wars assignment, they use that one orchestral adventure sound that they know and they are capable of.

At least my impression.

 

But this story that gets implied b Holt in the interviews really sounds mean. She, excited to write a Star Wars score, then pushed by Chow and Kennedy to move her music away from the typical Star Wars sound, and then Ross brought in to add the typical Star Wars sound. 

Weird.

[Mr. Gitz 85]

On 5/7/2022 at 12:56 AM, greenturnedblue said:

Anyone else think the Mando main theme might be the most iconic TV theme of the decade? I think it is definitely instantly recognisable and memorable and therefore 'timeless'. A perfect example star wars music does not need to fit within the the John Williams mould to be successful

 

My main gripe with the Holt material is just that it isn't very good, in general, not that it isn't good star wars music 

 

Also I don't really see a problem with today's new composers trying to be inventive and unique (see success of Mando theme). Imagine if film music never evolved past its humble beginnings. We would be listening to the same kind of scores as people did 100 years ago! Composers like Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, Gorranson, Clint Mansell, Vangelis even Zimmer and artists like Daft Punk have been pushing the envelope, successfully. If they are not successful I don't know what is

 

But with anything, there is a time and a place for new things, and the Kenobi show was not one of them

Game of Thrones might have a thing or two to say about that “most memorable TV theme of the decade” claim. 

[Richard Penna 3,669]

5 hours ago, Tydirium said:

 

 

 

I appreciate your detailed response, and you make some good points.

 

My primary concern when reading the discussion here lately has been that we seem a bit of a 'glass half empty' bunch. Give us a release, a new score, or something else, and we (royal 'we') look for flaws, problems, or missed opportunities before celebrating what we did get.

 

Hence in the case of this show, we got a glimpse of what it might've been had JW/Ross scored the whole thing, and it just seems to me that it's put the forum on a bit of a more severe case of 'what could have been'.

 

And the various suggestions that Holt has been inconsistent about when JW came on, whether it was a thematic rescore or more of an emergency partial rescore. All these discussions feel to me an attempt to 'paint' the situation as JW/Ross having saved the show from Holt's modern sound, and that LFL/KK finally 'saw the light'. As someone who these days prefers a lot of more modern, alternative scoring, I tend to find lamenting over the loss of JW's sound a bit old-fashioned.

[GerateWohl 4,326]

On 05/07/2022 at 6:56 AM, greenturnedblue said:

Anyone else think the Mando main theme might be the most iconic TV theme of the decade? I think it is definitely instantly recognisable and memorable and therefore 'timeless'. A perfect example star wars music does not need to fit within the the John Williams mould to be successful

I agree, that it is reconizable. But I always found it too simple rhythmically and melodically. It is for me what I call LEGO brick music.

But I understand why others like it.

[Oswin Pond 58]

On 12/07/2022 at 3:48 PM, Richard Penna said:

Then just ignore it? I just don't listen to scores I don't like.

 

It's hard to ignore it when watching the show. I can't just watch it muted because then I don't hear the dialogues and sound effects.

[Edmilson 7,384]

47 minutes ago, Oswin Pond said:

It's hard to ignore it when watching the show. I can't just watch it muted because then I don't hear the dialogues and sound effects.

Just turn the subtitles on 

[mstrox 6,643]

Gd this score whips so much ass.  Glad to listen to it!

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

25 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Gd this score whips so much ass.  Glad to listen to it!

 

Did you also accidentally think this was the Orville thread like I did last week?

[Mephariel 451]

23 hours ago, Toillion said:

I wonder Holt is hurting her relationship with Lucasfilm/Disney with what she is saying I’m interviews. She’s may be speaking the truth but it definitely makes lucasfilm look bad with their decisions and micromanaging. 

 

Is it even a secret at this point? Lucasfilm let the cat out of the bag the moment they fired Lord and Miller.

[DangerMotif 1,037]

22 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

Is it even a secret at this point? Lucasfilm let the cat out of the bag the moment they fired Lord and Miller.

every production besides Ep8 and the Mandoverse stuff has been production nightmares

[Mephariel 451]

22 hours ago, Tydirium said:

 

Who said everyone has to sound like John Williams? How many times do we have to say that we are fine with people who don't sound like John Williams for virtually every other Star Wars show but this one? I mean, what about "This show is basically Episode 3.5" do you not get? This wasn't just some other random Star Wars show, it was marketed heavily with PT music, it was set right between ROTS and ANH, it featured the return of multiple PT actors, and it was extremely important to the overall saga story. Why should things like Battlefront and Fallen Order get scores performed by the LSO that are written to sound just like JW's Star Wars universe, but not a show like this? Aside from Ross' contributions, even a lot of music in The Clone Wars, Rebels, Bad Batch, Visions, etc. has sounded closer to JW than this show.

 

You seem to think that anybody who disliked Holt's score for Kenobi, has a problem with letting "a few other composers have their moment"... even though many of us are fine with—and even enjoy—scores like Ludwig Gorransson's Mando, Shirley's Boba Fett, and are looking forward to Britell's Andor. Those scores don't need to sound anything like JW, and I haven't said a word against them. So why are you acting as though we're all a bunch of JW purists, who can't handle any Star Wars music that doesn't sound like JW? This "let a few other composers have their moment" is getting old and sounds like a strawman.

 

Sorry if I am coming across as harsh, but I just don't get what is so difficult about noticing that this particular show is different from the others, and noticing that the people who are critical of the music in this, aren't in fact opposed to other composers having their moment. And it's not just people here at JWFan who feel like this; you don't have to look far online to find plenty of people who wish this show had a more classic Star Wars sound. I'm fine with literally every other show sounding like whatever style its composer wants it to sound like, so why is it such an outrageous thing for me to want just this one show to sound like JW's Star Wars? I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

 

This is why this board loses me from time to time:

 

"I mean, what about "This show is basically Episode 3.5" do you not get? This wasn't just some other random Star Wars show, it was marketed heavily with PT music, it was set right between ROTS and ANH, it featured the return of multiple PT actors, and it was extremely important to the overall saga story." 

 

Let’s get back to reality. Let’s call this show what it really is: a cash grab. This show shouldn’t even exist. Before you heard of this show, were you clamoring for an Obi-Wan show? Nope. Who was asking for this show? Maybe a small minority of Star Wars fan. This show is basically another Loki, Hawkeye, Mandalorian…This show exists because of Disney’s strategy of making as many sequels and spinoffs as possible since known properties are valuable marketing tools. And just using the other shows as barometers, you knew this was going be an elevated NBC type show. Nothing more, nothing less. Did anyone really think they planned this show with the notion this is Episode 3.5?

 

Just reading the interviews, it seemed like they wanted Williams’ involvement more as an obligation than creating music with artistry and care. They hired Holt because of her previous work with Loki, and she is a rising choice for these type of mid-level shows. In hindsight, Holt’s music is exactly what anyone should be expecting from an exploitation show like this.  

[Edmilson 7,384]

Disney+ is at its best when offering easy access to classic kids movies from Disney, Pixar and Fox, and at its worse when exploiting the Mouse's prized franchises to create crappy, low-effort, cash-grab content. Yeah, content is the word that best describes these productions, not TV shows.

[Tom 4,633]

7 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

This is why this board loses me from time to time:

 

What you say is accurate, but the problem is that this could (and quite frankly, given the budget, actors, and easy potential invovled, this should) have been something much more.  But alas, it is closer to what your analysis suggests.   Plus, given the factors, JW's legacy is (albeit in a small way) on the line, which makes us all understandably and justifiably defensive and protective. 

[artguy360 1,843]

The latest episode of the Legacy of John Williams podcast presents another version of how John got involved with Kenobi. JoAnn (the harpist being interviewed) says Kathleen Kennedy told a story at the recording session about how she approached him to write a theme for Benny, not him approaching her.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

Exactly what I've been saying!

[artus_grayboot 77]

I wonder which show will be the straw that breaks the camels back. This one seems to have gotten a lot of criticism from people on the Internet (many comments on the music and shaky cam work that is reflective of the worst productions in audio-visual media today). I am curious what direction things will go in the next few years.

[michael_grig 464]

On 05/07/2022 at 5:03 PM, Michael G. said:

I've done an overview of the themes of the Obi-Wan Kenobi series (more than you might think!) and identified how the album tracks are used in the episodes. In case of errors please report!

Added one Dies Irae-Statement in "I Will Do What I Must"

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi Themes.pdf

 

Thanks to Alex Ludwig aka Film Music Tropes for pointing this out in his new video:

[Drew 590]

Holt is thrilled to share award nominations with only one other composer, because apparently William Ross doesn't exist anymore. Shameful!

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

[artguy360 1,843]

On 05/08/2022 at 1:02 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Lol. I'm glad Ross has always come across as ego-less in interviews. To not be nominated on a project you contributed substantial work and original music to is a terrible slight. He deserves better.

[JNHFan2000 2,943]

 

For anyone who is interested.

They talk about Obi-Wan and Loki both

[CGCJ 394]

Some cue information! (courtesy of Songview):

Spoiler

Lucas Star Wars Title - William Ross

Battle Part 1 - William Ross

Battle Part 2 - William Ross

Blackbear Stops Ship Overlay - Andreas Gutuen Aaser

 

There's more but they're just OST titles and with only entries for William Ross it's unsure whether those are actual cues or simply the OST. Also, Andreas Gutuen Aaser has Mapuzo on his website and has a video on his Intragram performing nose flute for the cue.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Nice to see the lucasfilm logo is by ross. I hope it is ised everywhere from now on