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Bernard Herrmann's THE MAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH & ON DANGEROUS GROUND - Intrada Records 2022 Kickstarter


Jay

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On 25/4/2023 at 11:01 AM, Archive Collection said:

The new performances are great, but something has gone wrong in the mixing process, because there are some very noticable phase issues in the recording (at least in the preview) - especially in the ODG tracks. There's a tinny quality to the mids, which is probably related to the mixing process. Not sure what's happened...

 

EDIT: it seems like the ODG tracks are the only ones affected by this issue, and it seems that it mainly effects the strings. Potentially has something to do with how this section has been mixed?

Bumping this, has anyone else noticed the issues in the mix? It has made the recordings almost unlistenable for me…

 

I’m pretty astonished that they have published this mix of the album, because the phase issues are so noticeable and distracting. It really lets down the stellar recording and performance.

 

Any chance they’d be able to fix this?

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On 29/04/2023 at 4:43 AM, Archive Collection said:

Bumping this, has anyone else noticed the issues in the mix? It has made the recordings almost unlistenable for me…

 

Would you be able to indicate tracks and timestamps where this is the most noticeable?

 

On 29/04/2023 at 4:43 AM, Archive Collection said:

Any chance they’d be able to fix this?

 

You can try writing on the Intrada forum here: http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/index.php.

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Can't say I've noticed any issues with the sound which seems pretty great to me, capturing excellent performances by the RSNO. Is it me or does The Chase & The Knife from The Man Who Knew Too Much give off Jaws vibes - I know a piano ostinato does not make something the theme from Jaws, but with the low end piano over the same interval, the overall tone of the track is quite similar. Elsewhere, I was surprised by some of the earlier cues - the lilting violins and flutes in Nocturne in particular I'm not sure I'd have recognised as Herrmann out of context. Really lovely though.

 

Need to give them a bit more of a listen before commenting further - so much new stuff!

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2 hours ago, Chewy said:

 

Would you be able to indicate tracks and timestamps where this is the most noticeable?

 

 

You can try writing on the Intrada forum here: http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/index.php.

 

Listen to the strings in On Dangerous Ground's 'Solitude' and 'Nocturne'. In case you're not familiar with the idea of phase cancellation, it refers to layers of recorded sound (partially) cancelling each other out and causing a weaker overall sound.

 

This often occurs when multiple mics placed at different distances capture the same sound. If one is closer to the sound source, it'll capture the sound a few milliseconds earlier -  whereas the furtherest mic would capture it slightly later. This time difference needs to be compensated for when mixing, or else phase issues will occur.

 

These phase issues are not limited to the strings - you can occasionally hear them in other sections. I think these issues stem from different mic placements between each session, which haven't been accounted for in the mix.

 

 

Compare the ending of the TMWKTM 'Prelude' to the 'Finale (Film Version)'. Musically they're virtually identical, but the overall sound is much better in the Prelude.

 

 

 

 

From what I can hear, some tracks are affected, while others are not... most of the TMWKTM tracks are fine - except for 'Finale (Film Version)' and 'Finale (Original Version)'. Of the ODG tracks, here are the ones which I identified phase issues with, just from skimming through the album: Prelude, Solitude, Nocturne, Pastorale, Hunt Scherzo, Fright, The Death Hunt/The Hunt's End.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Archive Collection said:

 

Listen to the strings in On Dangerous Ground's 'Solitude' and 'Nocturne'. In case you're not familiar with the idea of phase cancellation, it refers to layers of recorded sound (partially) cancelling each other out and causing a weaker overall sound.

 

Oh yes you're absolutely right, I can hear it and even see it on the spectrogram:

 

image.png

 

Those white horizontal lines should not be there!

 

I suggest you contact them on their forums, they usually answer and sometimes bring fixes when they can do it :) 

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The low brass is mixed very hot (high levels of the spot mics) for the Prelude compared to the Finale.  It might be that the tubas are featured prominently in the score (eg in front of the orchestra and intended to not blend similar to their use in Day the Earth Stood Still, but it gives an unnatural balance)...again might have been by Herrmann's intent but it ends an edgier quality to the Prelude that isn't there in the finale.

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Ugh, I'm glad that, while I wouldn't call myself uncritical of poor recordings/performances, I don't notice this kinda stuff. A bit of a shame though as it's otherwise excellent. Amazing to think that The Man Who Knew Too Much hasn't have any kind of release or new recording until now.

 

Thought I should give the Storm Clouds Cantata (not appearing on this recording) which famously covers the climax of the movie (shame Herrmann didn't get to write something new it has to be said) and realised that of the two recordings I have of it (one on a Chandos album of Benjamin's music and the other a Mauceri conducted Hitchcock album), one is just under 8 minutes and one is 10 minutes... 2 minutes difference on a work of that length is some speed difference, so I'm wondering if maybe one has edits. It'll have to wait until after Barry's King Kong though!

 

Regarding On Dangerous Ground, great to hear another fine recording of the Death Hunt even though I'm not sure I'd have put it in the same track as the cue that follows it but it's a minor grumble. It doesn't surpass the Gerhardt performance but comes pretty close. Interesting to compare it to the recording of the same piece that appeared in the Stromberg conducted Battle of Neretva which is fine enough but not as good as this new version. Can't for the life of me remember if there's any reason Herrmann reused this cue unless it was just one of those times the director/producer wanted it... which would make sense.

30 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Ugh, I'm glad that, while I wouldn't call myself uncritical of poor recordings/performances, I don't notice this kinda stuff. A bit of a shame though as it's otherwise excellent. Amazing to think that The Man Who Knew Too Much hasn't have any kind of release or new recording until now.

 

Thought I should give the Storm Clouds Cantata (not appearing on this recording) which famously covers the climax of the movie (shame Herrmann didn't get to write something new it has to be said) and realised that of the two recordings I have of it (one on a Chandos album of Benjamin's music and the other a Mauceri conducted Hitchcock album), one is just under 8 minutes and one is 10 minutes... 2 minutes difference on a work of that length is some speed difference, so I'm wondering if maybe one has edits. It'll have to wait until after Barry's King Kong though!

 

Regarding On Dangerous Ground, great to hear another fine recording of the Death Hunt even though I'm not sure I'd have put it in the same track as the cue that follows it but it's a minor grumble. It doesn't surpass the Gerhardt performance but comes pretty close. Interesting to compare it to the recording of the same piece that appeared in the Stromberg conducted Battle of Neretva which is fine enough but not as good as this new version. Can't for the life of me remember if there's any reason Herrmann reused this cue unless it was just one of those times the director/producer wanted it... which would make sense.

Update... the Mauceri Storm Clouds Cantata is from a concert and includes applause. What a dull explanation!

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On 30/04/2023 at 12:32 PM, Chewy said:

I suggest you contact them on their forums, they usually answer and sometimes bring fixes when they can do it :) 

 

Did anyone do this?

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I think so far they mostly fixed technical rendering errors, never stuff that would need more work to go back into an earlier stage like redoing a mix or fixing awful performance edit phasing or completely misaligned edits.

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On 30/4/2023 at 9:24 PM, Tom Guernsey said:

 

 

Regarding On Dangerous Ground, great to hear another fine recording of the Death Hunt even though I'm not sure I'd have put it in the same track as the cue that follows it but it's a minor grumble. It doesn't surpass the Gerhardt performance but comes pretty close. Interesting to compare it to the recording of the same piece that appeared in the Stromberg conducted Battle of Neretva which is fine enough but not as good as this new version. Can't for the life of me remember if there's any reason Herrmann reused this cue unless it was just one of those times the director/producer wanted it... which would make sense.

Update... the Mauceri Storm Clouds Cantata is from a concert and includes applause. What a dull explanation!

I agree. The cue ' The Hunts End 'didnt needed to be joined with the 'Death Hunt'. I just love grunting basoons there - one of my favorite tracks here. Thankfully the FSM track isnt bad either and its seperate. I havent compared the NERETEVA version of 'Death Hunt'  ( here called Hunt Scherzo) but its a little different in tempo.  Interestingly the next cue 'Danica's Death' which is again a variation of the same piece but seperate.

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On 30/04/2023 at 6:24 PM, Tom Guernsey said:

Can't for the life of me remember if there's any reason Herrmann reused this cue unless it was just one of those times the director/producer wanted it... which would make sense.

 

Neretva is mostly a collection of tracks from previous Herrmann scores.

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4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Neretva is mostly a collection of tracks from previous Herrmann scores.

Not entirely but yes. Fahrenheit 451, Torn Curtain, ODG etc. Dont you dare remind Mr. Herrmann though.

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I got mine and gave it a listen. I love the music, both scores are awesome! The phasing issues I can hear...I noticed something was weird on the affected tracks and then came here to see if anyone else noticed. And yes, I see some have. 

 

I'm surprised it was not caught. Disappointing for sure because I really like the music and the performances. 

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8 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Perhaps Intrada should hire people who know how to do stuff correctly. Just a thought.

 

Or learn to do it themselves like Mike ;)

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Uh..ok then...Expect another reissue with more colorful appropriate artwork and corrections and add some unused alternate version and separate clean  ended cues in some 5 years...:P

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On 30/04/2023 at 6:24 PM, Tom Guernsey said:

Update... the Mauceri Storm Clouds Cantata is from a concert and includes applause. What a dull explanation!

 

Aren't there two versions of the piece though? I think I remember reading that it was modified for the film, or perhaps just reorchestrated?

 

I only have the Chandos recording, which isn't ideal. How's the Mauceri?

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26 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Aren't there two versions of the piece though? I think I remember reading that it was modified for the film, or perhaps just reorchestrated?

 

Yes, Bernard Herrmann re-orchestrated it somewhat for the remake, presumably for a larger orchestra. Back in the 1930s when Arthur Benjamin wrote music for the original film, sound reproduction in films wasn't great and there was less point of having a large orchestra so often players numbered in the 40s or even 30s, rather than 60s+.

 

It's a good question whether both versions exist newly recorded on album...

 

Yavar

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On 04/05/2023 at 8:07 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

 

Yes, Bernard Herrmann re-orchestrated it somewhat for the remake, presumably for a larger orchestra. Back in the 1930s when Arthur Benjamin wrote music for the original film, sound reproduction in films wasn't great and there was less point of having a large orchestra so often players numbered in the 40s or even 30s, rather than 60s+.

 

It's a good question whether both versions exist newly recorded on album...

 

Yavar

The Chandos recording says as follows in the liner notes - important part highlighted:

 

Hitchcock made his first version of The Man Who Knew Too Much in 1934, with a complete score by Benjamin. ‘Complete’ might seem a little exaggerated as there is little music in the film apart from the ‘Storm Clouds’ cantata. When Hitchcock remade the film in 1956, in colour, the incidental score was composed by Bernard Herrmann. Herrmann, in an unusual outbreak of modesty, said that he could not better Benjamin’s cantata for the climax of the film, so it was reused, with a few amendments that actually lengthened it somewhat. (My new edition of the cantata, prepared for this recording, allows for the performance of either version. However, it is the more extended version of 1956 that has been recorded here.) The text of the cantata was written by one of the screenwriters, Wyndham-Lewis, and in the film Herrmann is seen conducting the performance of it in the Royal Albert Hall.

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On 04/05/2023 at 7:38 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Aren't there two versions of the piece though? I think I remember reading that it was modified for the film, or perhaps just reorchestrated?

 

I only have the Chandos recording, which isn't ideal. How's the Mauceri?

Not clear whether Herrmann re-orchestrated it or just lengthened it, although if the orchestra used was larger than that originally, there may have been some adjustments to the orchestration. As for the recordings, they both seem pretty decent to me... can't really say I have a preference (although I would say that I quite like the Chandos recording).

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1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Not clear whether Herrmann re-orchestrated it or just lengthened it, although if the orchestra used was larger than that originally, there may have been some adjustments to the orchestration. As for the recordings, they both seem pretty decent to me... can't really say I have a preference (although I would say that I quite like the Chandos recording).

 

I have the recording of the Storms Clouds Cantata by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Elmer Bernstein.  The liner notes state that Herrmann re-orchestrated the work for the remake, "adding expressive new voices for harp and organ."  If you compare the Royal Albert Hall scene from the 1934 original with the same scene in the 1956 remake, you can see an organist in both but in the original there is only one harp (located immediately in front of the conductor) compared with two in the remake.  The would-be assassin's accomplice in the remake reads the conductor score in which the harp parts can clearly be seen.

 

 

I assume this means that Herrmann wrote additional lines for the organ and harp, rather than adding instrumentation which was not there previously, but the only way to find out for sure would be to have sight of Arthur Benjamin's original orchestration and compare the two.

 

Incidentally, it is nice to see that a suite from Herrmann's score to Vertigo will be performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the BBC Proms this year in the Royal Albert Hall, alongside Mason Bates's piano concerto and Prokofiev's third symphony.

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4 hours ago, Omen II said:

 

I have the recording of the Storms Clouds Cantata by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Elmer Bernstein.  The liner notes state that Herrmann re-orchestrated the work for the remake, "adding expressive new voices for harp and organ."  If you compare the Royal Albert Hall scene from the 1934 original with the same scene in the 1956 remake, you can see an organist in both but in the original there is only one harp (located immediately in front of the conductor) compared with two in the remake.  The would-be assassin's accomplice in the remake reads the conductor score in which the harp parts can clearly be seen.

 

 

I assume this means that Herrmann wrote additional lines for the organ and harp, rather than adding instrumentation which was not there previously, but the only way to find out for sure would be to have sight of Arthur Benjamin's original orchestration and compare the two.

 

Incidentally, it is nice to see that a suite from Herrmann's score to Vertigo will be performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the BBC Proms this year in the Royal Albert Hall, alongside Mason Bates's piano concerto and Prokofiev's third symphony.

Is that the Bernstein conducted album with an image suggesting Taxi Driver on the front? I think I used to have that but for some reason no longer do, now wondering why! Some interesting background on the piece though, would make sense for him to add parts that would match the written score as seen on screen (although I'd almost be amazed if they went to enough effort to make them match!).

 

Cool on the Vertigo suite... might have to listen out for that. Have to admit I've never heard of Mason Bates but sounds interesting and his CV suggests some high quality collaborations.

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12 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Cool on the Vertigo suite... might have to listen out for that. Have to admit I've never heard of Mason Bates but sounds interesting and his CV suggests some high quality collaborations.

I would expect, this might be the same suite that is on the phase4 album conducted by Herrmann himself or not?

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23 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Is that the Bernstein conducted album with an image suggesting Taxi Driver on the front?


Yes, that’s the one.  It’s Alively recording.  I would recommend buying it again if you can scrape together enough Marnie.

 

10 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I would expect, this might be the same suite that is on the phase4 album conducted by Herrmann himself or not?


You might well be right.  The listings for the BBC Proms usually give an estimate of the length of each piece and the suite from Vertigo is given as 12 minutes long.

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45 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I would expect, this might be the same suite that is on the phase4 album conducted by Herrmann himself or not?

Yeah it could be, I mean it should at least include the Prelude and Scene d'Amour.

 

43 minutes ago, Omen II said:


Yes, that’s the one.  It’s Alively recording.  I would recommend buying it again if you can scrape together enough Marnie.

Hah! I will have to see if I can find a man in a grey flannel suit to sell me a copy...

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12 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Not clear whether Herrmann re-orchestrated it or just lengthened it, although if the orchestra used was larger than that originally, there may have been some adjustments to the orchestration. As for the recordings, they both seem pretty decent to me... can't really say I have a preference (although I would say that I quite like the Chandos recording).

 

It's been ages since I listened to it (I keep forgetting that I have it!), but from what I remember, the soloist is disappointing.

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On 30/04/2023 at 12:32 PM, Chewy said:

 

Oh yes you're absolutely right, I can hear it and even see it on the spectrogram:

 

image.png

 

Those white horizontal lines should not be there!

 

I suggest you contact them on their forums, they usually answer and sometimes bring fixes when they can do it :) 

Did anybody address this on the Intrada forum?

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50 minutes ago, Romão said:

Did anyone else that was an early backer from Europe have to pay customs on this?

 

Seven-something euros. I didn't expect this to be exempt from customs, so I wasn't surprised.

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