Simon Franglen's AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[Edmilson 7,384]

I disagree with Thor about many scores, but I'd never call him "deaf" for liking The Abyss, Titanic or whatever score. It's simply offensive to say that someone who has a different taste than you is "deaf", "dumb", etc.

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Oh gosh, don’t even get me started on this masterpiece.

 

Perhaps suited for another thread, though.

I’s be curious to read these thoughts, especially if they are building the argument that the musical motifs as presented in Aliens are best presented in Aliens and not any other previous Horner score. Those are always fascinating Horner discussions—Concerning this or that motif: where did he use it best?

[GerateWohl 4,326]

59 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

All these heroic militaristic fanfares? You mean that one 3-minute cue? Big deal.

Was it really just that one cue? In my memory it was bigger. Haven't listened to the score in years. Maybe good idea to do it again.

[Thor 7,463]

8 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I’s be curious to read these thoughts, especially if they are building the argument that the musical motifs as presented in Aliens are best presented in Aliens and not any other previous Horner score. Those are always fascinating Horner discussions—Concerning this or that motif: where did he use it best?

 

Presumably, there is a previous ALIENS thread where we can pursue such a discussion.

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

 

Presumably, there is a previous ALIENS thread where we can pursue such a discussion.

Absolutely. I’d love to read your thoughts over there if you get time to jot some down. 

[Romão 2,274]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

Sorry to hear it. As with publicist, I disagree fundamentally with that.

 

Don't get me wrong, Thor, I still think Aliens, Titanic and The Abyss are fine scores. I own all of them on cd. But the way Cameron works, they are seriously compromised works and I really think they would've been superior works had the composers been given more leeway when writing, as their musical instincts far surpass Cameron's, who he is a director that I find particularly egregious in that regard.

 

But Silvestri and specially Horner are far too talented to be completely buried under a director's overzealous guise

[Mr. Who 919]

As a huge fan of Horner, it's time to listen to Aliens. I have never heard this score nor seen the movie.

[Fargo 297]

7 hours ago, publicist said:

 

That's were we differentiate: i consider this stuff loved by either deaf guys or guys who are much more in love with movies than with music (as Music). Is Abyss great? Titanic? Probably for guys that like movies more than music, but to me as a purely music-driven person, i have a hard time accepting that people find stuff like that the pinnacle of the medium.

So is gatekeeping music just a hobby for you or what?

[DemonStar 57]

Just came back after watching the movie, went through the soundtrack album for the first time. The score was alright and had some cool highlights. It's nice that the train attack cue will be included in the upcoming expanded album, I liked that one a lot.

 

I was delighted when the Thanator Chase music from the first score played in one of the action scenes. I really like that cue personally. Hoping for an official expanded Avatar release mainly to have it in proper quality.

[crocodile 7,982]

My hope is the success of this film will persuade Disney to expanding Horner’s score. If it's digital-only, so be it. I don’t really care. 

 

Karol

[Benhip 21]

I watched the movie yesterday. It was cool, better than the first one, with beautiful VFX and settings, but the story is still too simple. As for the score, it was rather forgettable : the old themes are as wonderful as in the original film, but the new themes are generic and sound like a hundred of scores nowadays.

 

I spotted 3 major themes :

- the Family theme, which is the most frequent. You can hear it in the second half of « The Spirit Tree », from 1:30 to the end of the cue.

- the sub-water theme (maybe someone has another title), in my opinion the best leitmotiv of the soundtrack, but a bit underused. It is the first theme you can hear in the score, at 0:30 in « Into the Water », and Franglen explores it in « The Way of Water.

- the last one is, in my opinion, more a motif than a theme. It is an three-notes motif linked to Payakan, and it can be heard in the eponyme track.

- there is also a electronic motif which appears each time we see an arrow on screen. An exemple is 4:06 in »Rescue and Loss.

 

The action music goes from mediocre (most of « Rescue and Loss ») to very good « Na’vi Attack », and what I think is my bigger issue with this score is that it is not « cinematic ». Cues like « The Tulkun return » are of course beautiful, but sound like a theme park theme or a television documentary. That was the case in the first movie, but it is even more pronounced here.

 

Thank you for reading.

PS: this is my first post on this site, I would love to hear your advices, and please do not hesitate to spot my English errors, since it is not my first language…

[Mr. Who 919]

48 minutes ago, Benhip said:

I spotted 3 major themes :

- the Family theme, which is the most frequent. You can hear it in the second half of « The Spirit Tree », from 1:30 to the end of the cue.

- the sub-water theme (maybe someone has another title), in my opinion the best leitmotiv of the soundtrack, but a bit underused. It is the first theme you can hear in the score, at 0:30 in « Into the Water », and Franglen explores it in « The Way of Water.

- the last one is, in my opinion, more a motif than a theme. It is an three-notes motif linked to Payakan, and it can be heard in the eponyme track.

- there is also a electronic motif which appears each time we see an arrow on screen. An exemple is 4:06 in »Rescue and Loss.

These are great. I also really like Kiri's theme which plays in the beginning of Happiness Is Simple and Converging Paths. It's payed by the flute and is more melodic in Happiness is Simple. It also appears in the choir in the beginning of From Darkness to Light.

 

After a couple of listens I am also liking the RND (Sky people) material which hopefully will be more developed in the next scores. Franglen did say that they were building the scores thematically step by step.

57 minutes ago, crocodile said:

My hope is the success of this film will persuade Disney to expanding Horner’s score. If it's digital-only, so be it. I don’t really care. 

 

Karol

It would be a very popular release I think. Hopefully they would include demos and unused ideas as well which weren't on the FYC or the sessions.

[Knight of Ren 785]

I gave the score a second listening and I like it a bit more! The action electronic cues still feel a bit underwhelming, but I really like the action in the second half. And I'm starting to pick up on some themes, that I guess will make more sense when I watch the movie, hopefully tomorrow!

 

I really like what I think is the Family Theme and all its variations, being one of my favorites the dramatic development of the theme in Hometree and From Darkness to Light. But my favorite might be the theme that pops up in "Into the Water", "Friends" or "The Tulkan Returns", that as I have read in some posts above, seems to be a sort of underwater theme. I particularly love the secondary phrase, with the descending notes that almost sound like it's going to play Legends of the Fall! That particular melody feels so Horner to me, and I think Franglen did such a good job of conveying these ideas that feel like it could have been written by Horner himself.

[Benhip 21]

39 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

I also really like Kiri's theme which plays in the beginning of Happiness Is Simple and Converging Paths. It's payed by the flute and is more melodic in Happiness is Simple. It also appears in the choir in the beginning of From Darkness to Light.

I did not spot this one, which is indeed beautiful.

 

40 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

 

After a couple of listens I am also liking the RND (Sky people) material which hopefully will be more developed in the next scores. Franglen did say that they were building the scores thematically step by step

During the movie, I heard several motifs associates with Sky People, but they seemed to disappear after the first half-hour. Do you know when it is on the album ?

[Mr. Who 919]

13 minutes ago, Benhip said:

I did not spot this one, which is indeed beautiful.

 

During the movie, I heard several motifs associates with Sky People, but they seemed to disappear after the first half-hour. Do you know when it is on the album ?

I still haven't gotten everything down in my analysis but you can hear the RDA material in A New Star, The Hunt, Na'vi Attack. Right now I have RDA split into 3 sections where the A sect is a harmonic idea you hear in the beginning of A New Star, the B sect is the ascending line which also appears in A New Stark and the C sect is a horn line which is used in response to the B sect. There's possibly a trumpet motif related to the RDA as well but I haven't pinned everything down yet atter only 2 listens. Hopefully the bonus tracks will make things clearer.

 

35 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

But my favorite might be the theme that pops up in "Into the Water", "Friends" or "The Tulkan Returns", that as I have read in some posts above, seems to be a sort of underwater theme. I particularly love the secondary phrase, with the descending notes that almost sound like it's going to play Legends of the Fall! That particular melody feels so Horner to me, and I think Franglen did such a good job of conveying these ideas that feel like it could have been written by Horner himself.

Right now I have two underwater themes. The one you mention plus the theme that appears in the track 'The Way of Water'. I'm calling them the Underwater World theme and The Way of Water theme at the moment. They might appear in the training cue which will be on the extended album.

 

A small Horner callback that I noticed in Cove of the Ancestors which plays at 1:46 (before the I See You (avatar theme) melody comes in). It's a secondary idea from a cue in Avatar 1 but I can't remember which cue it appears in. Franglen starts out using it like Horner does first (in minor) but then switches over to major. Does anyone know in which track it appears in Avatar 1?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Seen the film. I think the album covers the highlights well, though there are a few moments I am hoping will be on the expanded version. That said, I think I am the only person who does not need the Horner material that was re-recorded. For the most part, it’s all straight regurgitations like the HP1 material in Chamber of Secrets. Franglen’s work is good enough that I would rather it stand on its own, and most of the direct Horner quotes haven’t really been spruced up enough to warrant me wanting them. Most of it felt like many short quotes awkwardly cobbled together. 

[leeallen01 2,133]

The more I listen to the score, the more I like it. The Tulkun theme is gorgeous. The underwater sounds and orchestration are magical, and the family theme is powerful and tragic. Franglen should be proud.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Yes, this score has climbed with successive listens to be my favorite of the year. This score is definitely a grower. Even the action music is starting to grow on me, especially the brutal “Bad Parents” that builds to that transcendent statement of the family theme (which I think is sadly cut from the film). I am actively looking forward to Franglen’s sequels

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Is the danger motif on the album?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Yes, it’s sprinkled in some of the action cues. It’s not really in the forefront ever, however. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I remember one very prominent moment in the film - when the whale is killed. I couldn't find it on the album.

[NL197 368]

13 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

A small Horner callback that I noticed in Cove of the Ancestors which plays at 1:46 (before the I See You (avatar theme) melody comes in). It's a secondary idea from a cue in Avatar 1 but I can't remember which cue it appears in. Franglen starts out using it like Horner does first (in minor) but then switches over to major. Does anyone know in which track it appears in Avatar 1?

It's similar to (from the OST) material in 'Becoming one of "The People", Becoming one with Neytiri', with a bit of piano not only in that cue (near the end) but also in 'The Bioluminescence of The Night' and the end of this Ancestors cue has another small (instrumentation over melody) bit of 'Pure Spirits of the Forest'. 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

On 17/12/2022 at 4:30 PM, Mr. Who said:

As a huge fan of Horner, it's time to listen to Aliens. I have never heard this score nor seen the movie.

Clearly you are not a real HUGE fan of Horner otherwise you would have see and heard Aliens.

 

I'm disappointed in the Way of the Water score.

 

[TolkienSS 405]

On 17/12/2022 at 6:19 PM, Mephariel said:

 

A bit arrogant isn't it? I am the opposite of a snobby film music traditionist and I loved Titanic, but even traditionists like Clemmensen gave Titanic five stars and said it "could very well end up being considered the crowning achievement of Horner's entire career."

 

When did this Clemmensen guy gain any cred in musical understanding or prowess? Because he's been "around" for so long?

Is this like one of those politician things, where people automatically get associated with massive wisdom, influence and authority just because they managed to hang around for 20 years?

 

I've listened to Titanic, it's not a score I can picture myself wanting to listen to out of a mood. It's saccharine and strangely unaffecting.

[Faleel 5,330]

2 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

When did this Clemmensen guy gain any cred in musical understanding or prowess? Because he's been "around" for so long?

 

Probably because he was many people's first exposure to the analysis, breakdown, and assessment of film scores

[TolkienSS 405]

5 minutes ago, Clockwork Angel said:

Probably because he was many people's first exposure to the analysis, breakdown, and assessment of film scores

 

We're talking about the guy that just recently in a review called Silence Of The Lambs "unlistenable", yes?

[Faleel 5,330]

15 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

We're talking about the guy that just recently in a review called Silence Of The Lambs "unlistenable", yes?

Just like you and RoP. So.

[Mephariel 451]

4 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

When did this Clemmensen guy gain any cred in musical understanding or prowess? Because he's been "around" for so long?

Is this like one of those politician things, where people automatically get associated with massive wisdom, influence and authority just because they managed to hang around for 20 years?

 

I've listened to Titanic, it's not a score I can picture myself wanting to listen to out of a mood. It's saccharine and strangely unaffecting.

 

The point isn't debating who has credibility, the point is, Titanic is a score that is loved by many music fans across the spectrum. Painting people who loved Titanic as "deaf" or just a movie guy is very disingenuous. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Titanic has to be one of the most instantly memorable scores in the history of cinema. I swear, when I first saw the film in 1998 or thereabouts (I saw it on vhs), and when I saw the main title for the first time, I knew the main theme i would remember forever - in 90 seconds or however long the main title is.

 

 There is something to be said about the skill in crafting an instantly memorable piece of music. Titanic can’t be faulted for that.

 

 How many themes enter the public consciousness this way. It isn’t to be discounted.

[Mr. Who 919]

6 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

Clearly you are not a real HUGE fan of Horner otherwise you would have see and heard Aliens.

 

I'm disappointed in the Way of the Water score.

 

Clearly I’m not a big fan of Horner, I guess I just think he’s pretty good😂

 

In all seriousness though, Aliens is definitively on my watchlist. I’m just not that much into horror scores.

6 hours ago, NL197 said:

It's similar to (from the OST) material in 'Becoming one of "The People", Becoming one with Neytiri', with a bit of piano not only in that cue (near the end) but also in 'The Bioluminescence of The Night' and the end of this Ancestors cue has another small (instrumentation over melody) bit of 'Pure Spirits of the Forest'. 

Thanks! It plays during the swimming scene right in the bioluminescent river?

[1977 1,743]

Watching the extended collector's edition cut tonight with family and then going to see the new one tomorrow. Very much looking forward to both (I have only seen the theatrical edition of 1).

[NL197 368]

54 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

 

Thanks! It plays during the swimming scene right in the bioluminescent river?

Which in the film was a total mashup of several cues, yes.

For those going on about Titanic and its merits or lack of depending on where one stands, I just wanted to point out that it is now December 19. Titanic was released 25 years ago today. 

[Richard Penna 3,669]

9 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

When did this Clemmensen guy gain any cred in musical understanding or prowess? Because he's been "around" for so long?

 

He was one of the most prominent reviewers when I was first getting into scores (early 00s) in that time when there weren't a lot of options for hearing a score outside of buying the CD.

 

I occasionally read his stuff for analysis of where themes appear, and the odd bit of background. I don't give a shit about what he thinks of the score though - we can decide that for ourselves.

 

9 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

We're talking about the guy that just recently in a review called Silence Of The Lambs "unlistenable", yes?

 

He gives all of the LotR and Hobbit scores 5 stars, celebrating them rightly as a rare masterpiece.

 

But no, go looking for one example where he doesn't like a score from your hero composer and use that to drum up arguments. Meh.

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

Clemmensen notoriously gave Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes two stars. A brave and accurate assessment.

[TolkienSS 405]

9 hours ago, Clockwork Angel said:

Just like you and RoP. So.

 

I don't think I called it unlistenable. I called it generic and unremarkable. 

You CAN listen to it.

[JNHFan2000 2,943]

For where it's already tuesday the 20th.

 

https://music.apple.com/nz/album/avatar-the-way-of-water-original-score/1659955303

[Gustavo Joseph 29]

Just saw the movie yesterday, great IMAX experience, and  the score works really well in the movie, with new themes and also a great homage to Horner. IMHO Cameron did the right thing to hire Franglen, and he delivered it. I have yet to heart it on the album, but the family theme is a keeper.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

6 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

Clearly I’m not a big fan of Horner, I guess I just think he’s pretty good😂

 

In all seriousness though, Aliens is definitively on my watchlist. I’m just not that much into horror scores.

Thanks! It plays during the swimming scene right in the bioluminescent river?

Its a better score than goldsmiths alien. And it's not so much a horror score as it is an action score. If you seen die hard then you've heard some of the aliens score

[Mr. Who 919]

32 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Its a better score than goldsmiths alien. And it's not so much a horror score as it is an action score. If you seen die hard then you've heard some of the aliens score

I like Die Hard's score so will check out Aliens soon but I want to watch the movie first though to hear it in context.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

That is an excellent plan

[Tydirium 1,166]

Not that I'm complaining, but why are we getting two albums for this? I would understand it if the "Original Motion Picture Soundtrack" album was mostly a bunch of pop songs, with one or two score tracks, but that album is basically a score album already... It just seems strange to have another album coming out just a few days later with 11 additional score tracks. Did Franglen produce both albums?

[Jay 37,281]

I whipped this up

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Gc3iyzpGHgcxCIX1WNgdm2W_Qb5uS_OtS_ZRAR1pcc

 

Assuming the Expanded soundtrack is in chronological order, than the only non-chronological aspect of the first soundtrack album is that "Hometree" and "Into The Water" are swapped

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I think “Hometree” might be an album arrangement of the family theme. It’s not in the film that I recall. I thought it might be, but then realized what I was thinking of was the cue “Sanctuary” on the expanded release. 

[Jay 37,281]

Interesting!

 

I'm looking forward to hearing this score when I can hear again

[Richard Penna 3,669]

Is it just me, or has track 8 Hometree been renamed everywhere to Leaving Home on the regular album? That's what it's called on Spotify and on a YouTube upload of the album.

 

Because album producers of huge scores cut down to 75 minutes like confusing us  

[Mr. Who 919]

11 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

I think “Hometree” might be an album arrangement of the family theme. It’s not in the film that I recall. I thought it might be, but then realized what I was thinking of was the cue “Sanctuary” on the expanded release. 

It's either an album suite of the family theme, or it is the cue that plays when they leave the forrest (should be before sanctuary). I remember that the family theme player in that scene but I'm not sure which cue it might be. I won't be able to listen to the extended for a few days so can't check but I am hopefully seeing the movie again this weekend so will know better after that.

 

Franglen said that the expanded release would be chronological. It looks to be chronological but I have a feeling that there is a cue in the movie that plays before Songcord Opening and the placement of Hometree is definitively not chronological.

5 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Is it just me, or has track 8 Hometree been renamed everywhere to Leaving Home? That's what it's called on Spotify and on a YouTube upload of the album.

 

Because album producers of huge scores cut down to 75 minutes like confusing us  

If it's called Leaving Home in certain places then that could mean that it does indeed play before Sanctuary (when they leave the forrest) like I suggested. Odd that it would be track 1 of the supposedly chronological album though, if it is the case.

[MikeH 768]

Absolutely loved it. The new family theme by Franglen is superb, and hearing those familiar Horner trademarks once again in a huge Dolby Cinema was incredibly emotional. I miss him. 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Sanctuary does feature the sweeping statement of the family theme that’s very similar to Hometree, which plays over them flying away from the forest. I am seeing the film again in a few days so can confirm then, but I am fairly confident Hometree is not in the film, hence its placement on the supposedly-chronological expanded album. 

[Mr. Who 919]

31 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

Sanctuary does feature the sweeping statement of the family theme that’s very similar to Hometree, which plays over them flying away from the forest. I am seeing the film again in a few days so can confirm then, but I am fairly confident Hometree is not in the film, hence its placement on the supposedly-chronological expanded album. 

Makes sense, maybe it’s an alt for Sanctuary but probably a theme suite.

I won’t have time to listen to the expanded until I see the movie again in a few days but I’m very happy we got more score released. 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

It could be an alt. That would make a lot of sense!