Simon Franglen's AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[leeallen01 2,169]

Hell, I want all 5 hours

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

11 hours ago, John F said:

I wish more of this score would get released… a couple juicy bonus cues would be nice. Come on Simon!

 

You're not satisfied with getting an expanded release?

[John F 100]

Sure I am but a couple more cues wouldn’t hurt. In this age of digital downloads wouldn’t be hard. Think Simon knows there’s def demand for more.

[leeallen01 2,169]

A little random thought, but I love how the Lightstorm Entertainment logo was scored with Kiri's theme.

[Mr. Who 974]

3 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

A little random thought, but I love how the Lightstorm Entertainment logo was scored with Kiri's theme.

I just saw the movie a third time in 3D and I noticed this as well!

 

The movie is just amazing. I’ve now seen it three times and it’s just as captivating each time. Even if I know exactly what happens, the final hour is just so intense. Payakan remains the best character of 2022 and Franglen nailed his theme! My friend who I saw the movie with saw the movie for the first time and it was fun seeing his reaction and being visibly blown away after the movie ended.

 

The cinema was pretty full and just like at my first 2 viewings in December, the audience clapped when the end credits started.

 

I noticed some new things in the score and there’s sadly so much great music missing from the OSTs. The variation of Destruction of Hometree in the scene where the first village is burned is so good and  should definitively have been on the OST, maybe at the end of the tulkun hunt cue, replacing the re recorded tracking.

 

There’s quite some action music missing as well as many RDA cues. I also think that most of the Horner music is re arranged or at the very least re recorded, except in a few moments, like the flute cue where they arrive in the cave after the train attack.

 

The moment when the big RDA ship crashes is so well scored. Franglen arranging the RDA theme for choir while the ship lifts into the air and then crashes is so cinematic. Cameron really chose the right composer for these Avatar sequels! I saw that his Spotify listener count crossed 10 million a few weeks ago which is really impressive and he really deserves all the praise for his work!

[leeallen01 2,169]

I'll have to see it a 5th time now, just to focus on the things you mentioned. I just need more excuses to keep going to see it. 🤣

 

I do think Franglen really fits perfectly into Camerons way of working. Cameron seems so hands on and so dedicated to the details of scoring. Not just the act of getting a composer to write music, but the art of scoring; the fine art of matching the feel of a scene musically and the pacing of the music, and when to shine and when to disappear. Franglen seems so matched to that way of thinking. 

 

This score and film have hit me and fixed themselves so firmly into my mind like no other has for years. I'm loving exploring them.

[Mr. Who 974]

I’m definitely going a 4th time but I’ll probably wait at least a month. I’m seeing LOTR2 extended and Titanic 3D in the coming month.

 

They showed the titanic trailer before Avatar which was pretty funny as both are Cameron movies.

[TolkienSS 448]

10 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

You're not satisfied with getting an expanded release?

 

The more I grow older, the better I understand public figures of all kind rolling their eyes at "the internet people".

At some point a few years ago, studios decided to release whole scores digitally, and release scores on double discs from the get go.

Did any of this get any, note any, thanks or cheer from movie fans? Nah, "where's this cue, where's that 10 seconds, where are the alternates, where are the SESSIONS?"

 

Some of you will only ever be content if composers streamed their recording sessions directly into your living room.

And even then you'll complain he didn't wave and said Hi.

[John F 100]

And what’s wrong with that? We appreciate the art form and want more of it. 

[HunterTech 1,172]

40 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

The more I grow older, the better I understand public figures of all kind rolling their eyes at "the internet people".

At some point a few years ago, studios decided to release whole scores digitally, and release scores on double discs from the get go.

Did any of this get any, note any, thanks or cheer from movie fans? Nah, "where's this cue, where's that 10 seconds, where are the alternates, where are the SESSIONS?"

 

Some of you will only ever be content if composers streamed their recording sessions directly into your living room.

And even then you'll complain he didn't wave and said Hi.

 

You know things have gotten dire if Thor is completely reasonable in comparison for his expression of basically the same views.

 

Also, since when? I sure didn't see a 2 disc Force Awakens OST on Spotify back in 2015. You mean stuff like ZSJL? I think I'm like one of 3 people here who actually enjoyed it lol.

 

I can trust someone like Franglen to be a good dude if his immediate reaction to our silly demands is bewilderment instead of annoyance.

[Taikomochi 1,201]

I am grateful for what we have while still wishing I had more. It is possible to be both things. 

[Jay 39,155]

I haven't listened to the score album yet, but when I watched both Avatar movies the other weekend I really liked the score in each.

 

I used to like the Avatar score back in the day, but realized I had gone maybe 10 years without listening to it before I re-watched the first movie. I liked the way the music worked in the movie so much, I listened to the OST album shortly after, including my whole drive to the cinema to see Avatar 2.

 

In the film, I was very impressed with Franglen's score, I felt like it had the exact same impact Horner's did in the first movie.  Now, I don't think Horner would have scored Avatar 2 just like Franglen did - I think he would have cooked up some fresh new ideas, done a bunch of stuff differently.  But I think Franglen made the right choice to keep things largely in the same musical space the first score was.  It was deliberately just like the first score at times, and new but familiar at others.

 

I do wonder what Horner's music for the smart whales would have been like...

[crumbs 14,696]

I could envisage Horner writing quite a romantic, sweeping theme just for the whales, yeah.

 

I love the Kira and Leaving Home material in Franglen's score but I'm yet to pick up on his ideas for the whales (other than the big return cue). 

[crocodile 8,407]

Well, the sequel is very much in the spirit of what Horner's sequel scores usually were - I am thinking of Star Trek III, The Legend of Zorro, An American Tail 2.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember Franglen had a big influence on Horner's later works, at least in terms of logistics. I am thinking of him using more modern tools on scores like Avatar, The Amazing Spider-Man and Southpaw. So there isn't that much of a stylistic jump overall as Horner's score got quite "modernised" in his final years.

 

Karol

[leeallen01 2,169]

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember Franglen had a big influence on Horner's later works, at least in terms of logistics. I am thinking of him using more modern tools on scores like Avatar, The Amazing Spider-Man and Southpaw. So there isn't that much of a stylistic jump overall as Horner's score got quite "modernised" in his final years.

 

Karol

 

 

From what I've gathered from many Franglen interviews, his job on Titanic (his first project with Horner), was figuring out how to make synthesizer mock-ups of Horner's writings, for future recordings with an orchestra, but they sometimes didn't manage to record them, because of having "no money" as Franglen put it. So the mock-up synthesizer stuff we hear in Titanic, is actually Franglens' work with Horner's written music.

 

With Avatar, he was brought on to give the electronic and synthetic sounds of the Pandoran Forest. So the exotic sounds you hear accompanying Horner's orchestral sound is Franglen.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, crumbs said:

I could envisage Horner writing quite a romantic, sweeping theme just for the whales, yeah.

 

I love the Kira and Leaving Home material in Franglen's score but I'm yet to pick up on his ideas for the whales (other than the big return cue). 

 

Franglen wrote the Tulkun (whale) theme for Payakan, heard in the piece 'Payakan.' That is mostly what is used as the theme for the Tulkun overall. Used quite dramatically and tragic in the piece 'The Hunt.' But Franglen also used the Underwater theme, heard in 'The Tulkun Return' for the Tulkun themselves in several scenes.

 

So Payakan's theme is for him mostly, but does join along with the Underwater theme to create an overall soundscape for the Tulkun whales.

[Mr. Who 974]

I listened to the OST again and I realized that one of the best cues are missing from the OST: the cue that plays when Jake goes to face Quaritch, before Payakan shows up and the cue Na'vi Attack starts. The unreleased cue is a beautiful variation of the family theme sung by solo vocals and choir... I can't believe they didn't put it on the OST.

 

I also did a calculation based on the OST runtime and the info that Franglen has given about the score. The OST is missing 91 minutes of music plus film versions of some OST cues. On top of that, there's also 114 minutes of music that is unused (suites, alts, cues for deleted or shortened scenes etc) that is unreleased (though the Hometree Suite could maybe be included in this number as it does not play in the film and is either a suite or an alt (for Sanctuary?))

 

I think I might have heard a hint of the flying mountains theme from A1 at the end of Masks Off, but I'm not sure yet. I also noticed that there is a Choir Chant that is associated with the Metkayina clan. It can be heard in both Sanctuary and in the Tulkun Return. It's a separate theme which isn't part of the Underwater or Way of Water themes. I have a feeling that it shows up more in the film but on the OST it appears twice.

 

Also want to highlight the trumpet line towards the end of Na'vi Attack, where I think, Payakan is doing some damage to the RDA ship. It's so awesome how the cue shifts from being so intense to this small almost comedic moment, before the choir and orchestra comes in when the ship lifts into the air and crashes.

[Richard Penna 4,086]

On 22/01/2023 at 9:21 AM, crocodile said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember Franglen had a big influence on Horner's later works, at least in terms of logistics. I am thinking of him using more modern tools on scores like Avatar, The Amazing Spider-Man and Southpaw. So there isn't that much of a stylistic jump overall as Horner's score got quite "modernised" in his final years.

 

I do remember thinking particularly with TASM that it sounded remarkably modern and electronic for a composer who worked as old-school as Williams does. Hence I can easily believe that for those later projects Franglen was taking a big role in helping out with that.

[leeallen01 2,169]

5 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

I listened to the OST again and I realized that one of the best cues are missing from the OST: the cue that plays when Jake goes to face Quaritch, before Payakan shows up and the cue Na'vi Attack starts. The unreleased cue is a beautiful variation of the family theme sung by solo vocals and choir... I can't believe they didn't put it on the OST.

 

Yeah I noticed that. Lovely variation. Hopefully it's added to the physical score release.

[midgemania 54]

Interesting little tidbit I just picked up. For ages it was bugging me why the vocals at the end of Sanctuary sounded so familiar. When I was reading Clemmensen’s stellar review of the score, I noticed that he mentioned that the sound of the Metkayina owed a lot to one of Horner’s last scores, Living in the Age of Airplanes. 
 

The vocals for this film were all done by a singer called Graham Foote, and I noticed that he’s credited as a Featured Vocalist on Avatar 2 (as well as an Orchestrator and Score Prep / Programming, so he’s presumably a part of Franglen’s team). 
 

It seems like this was the only Horner score that Foote was involved with, but nice to see another example of continuity from Horner - as well as the Horner stalwarts like JAC Redford and Simon Rhodes. 

[Taikomochi 1,201]

Very interesting! I kept thinking that Way of Water had a lot of the DNA of Airplanes, especially in tracks like Payakan. Makes more sense now. 

[crumbs 14,696]

I loved the continuity of maintaining the vocalists from the first film, I thought this was a neat touch!

[leeallen01 2,169]

Franglen spoke about how he wanted to create a more ethereal, smoother vocal for the underwater world with the Metkayina clan. He wanted to vocally distinguish the two worlds of the forest and the water, so he kept Horner's strong, harsh sounding vocals like "Kapa" etc in the choir for the forest Omaticaya, and then created a sort of siren song choir of long, seductive Na'vi singing for the Metkayina.  

 

You can really hear the difference when Franglen uses choir for Jake and Neytiri attacking at the end. The entire 2nd act underwater is flowing and gorgeous vocally, but when Jake attacks, the choir accompanying him is the more harsh and stabbing words of the forest.

[Jay 39,155]

When I was watching Avatar again the other weekend, I did notice some similarities in the score to the Living In The Age Of Airplanes score (which I love and have listened to many more times than Avatar).  Makes sense it was the same vocalist!

[NL197 395]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

When I was watching Avatar again the other weekend, I did notice some similarities in the score to the Living In The Age Of Airplanes score (which I love and have listened to many more times than Avatar).  Makes sense it was the same vocalist!

 Graham Foote (and his ensemble) did the vocals for "Living in The Age of Airplanes", and then the "Pandora" attraction music, but he did NOT work on Horner's Avatar score in 2009. 

The vocalists who carried over from the 2009 Horner score are Clydene Jackson, Terry Wood (you see them in the behind-the-scenes material on the Blu-ray) along with Carmen Twillie and Lisbeth Scott (Scott also performed on Amazing Spider-Man as well)

 

 

[midgemania 54]

12 hours ago, NL197 said:

 Graham Foote (and his ensemble) did the vocals for "Living in The Age of Airplanes", and then the "Pandora" attraction music, but he did NOT work on Horner's Avatar score in 2009. 
 

Correct, he definitely didn’t. 
 

FWIW - I’m pretty sure that the “ensemble” is a joke credit of sorts. I’m almost certain that LITAOA is just one voice stacked on top of itself (much like they did with Clydene Jackson and Terry Wood for Avatar), and from what I can find online, the “Graham Foote Ensemble” doesn’t seem to exist outside of this particular score. 

[Gabriel Bezerra 383]

Probably hearing things... but found this little melody from the first movie similar to Franglen's new theme.

[leeallen01 2,169]

2 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Probably hearing things... but found this little melody from the first movie similar to Franglen's new theme.

 

Likely a coincidence, but my personal head canon says Franglen grew the family theme from that Horner moment haha. However, Franglen did reference those military drums at the beginning of the piece. He played them at the end when Jake was walking to Tonowari to tell him he's going to leave. 

 

I love that rendition of Jake's Theme as well at 0:55 in that Horner piece. It's a shame Franglen didn't use it more in The Way of Water. He does use it at the end and also hints at it throughout, but it's such a strong, heroic and versatile theme that Horner really develops well. But I understand the Family Theme taking the spotlight for story purposes.

[Knight of Ren 967]

I don't know if it has been pointed out already, but I noticed a melody that appears in at least 5 different cues, that I don't really know what it represents, but it seems to be a secondary theme for Jake's family based on where it plays. It could also be a theme for his kids and their friendship or something like that? I don't know, but I think it's an idea that Franglen will get to explore in future sequels.

 

It's first heard at the very end of "Rescue and Loss", at 6:05

 

In a joyous choral arrangement at 0:25 of "Friends"

 

then becomes mournful and tragic at 0:54 of "Eclipse" and at 0:39 of "Family"

 

and then appears in full in a lovely vocal arrangement during the first half of "The Spirit Tree"

 

Nice little discovery, which makes me appreciate the score even more!

[Mr. Who 974]

54 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

I don't know if it has been pointed out already, but I noticed a melody that appears in at least 5 different cues, that I don't really know what it represents, but it seems to be a secondary theme for Jake's family based on where it plays. It could also be a theme for his kids and their friendship or something like that? I don't know, but I think it's an idea that Franglen will get to explore in future sequels.

 

It's first heard at the very end of "Rescue and Loss", at 6:05

 

In a joyous choral arrangement at 0:25 of "Friends"

 

then becomes mournful and tragic at 0:54 of "Eclipse" and at 0:39 of "Family"

 

and then appears in full in a lovely vocal arrangement during the first half of "The Spirit Tree"

 

Nice little discovery, which makes me appreciate the score even more!

I noticed this theme last time I listened to the OST but I have no idea what to name it! The Healing theme could maybe be a possibility. Maybe Franglen might answer if we ask on twitter.

[Taikomochi 1,201]

This was pointed out previously in the thread. I think we agreed it was a theme for loss/grief? Up to interpretation. Very lovely idea, especially in “Family”

 

Would love to hear what Franglen says

[Knight of Ren 967]

I asked and he jokingly replied this...

 

I guess it's a theme with a bigger purpose intended to be revealed in the sequels.

 

In relation to this, I just love that he takes time to be active on social media an answer all our questions. Such a nice guy!

 

 

[Mr. Who 974]

20 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

I asked and he jokingly replied this...

 

I guess it's a theme with a bigger purpose intended to be revealed in the sequels.

 

In relation to this, I just love that he takes time to be active on social media an answer all our questions. Such a nice guy!

 

 

Great response! This must be one of those themes which are introduced in this score and which will be used more in the sequels. He also said that Kiri’s theme it longer than it appears in A2 so I hope that we get to hear that in A3.

[leeallen01 2,169]

I assumed the theme was for loss, considering it's used for the abduction of Spider and the loss of Neteyam, but yeah, it could be something we don't know yet. I'm sure he'd just answer "yes it's a theme for loss" etc, if that were the case, unless he was just joking around. 

[leeallen01 2,169]

I saw it for the 5th time today and noticed some things I didn't before. Like the incredible Family theme statement at 1:50 in 'Bad Parents' isn't in the film. At least I didn't notice it. During the fight sequence that it takes places in, that statement doesn't appear.

 

Also some really gorgeous piano writing throughout. E.g. a lovely moment after the final battle when Lo'ak is looking for Jake, and he and Spider dive under water on the Ilu to look for him in the wreckage of the sunken ship, and the piano descends with them. It's so colourful and full of texture for such a little riff, as the high piano notes trickle down like water. Very Horner too.

[midgemania 54]

54 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Like the incredible Family theme statement at 1:50 in 'Bad Parents' isn't in the film. At least I didn't notice it. During the fight sequence that it takes places in, that statement doesn't appear.

 

 

This and the end of The Tulkun Hunt are the 2 most obvious and egregious Cameron hack jobs when comparing the score release to the dub in the film. Bad Parents in particular has been totally brutalised - it had none of the structure of the album release, and is much the worse for it. 

[leeallen01 2,169]

Yeah there's some hacking of pieces, but that's in every film and pretty expected, considering the 3 minute flow of an album piece doesn't always work in a film, as a films' sequence is never that perfect, and no doubt Franglen wrote some pieces before Cameron decided some last minute editing choices that destroy the pieces flow. But I do imagine what incredible scene that moment would score. It would've been wonderful.

[Mr. Who 974]

Franglen said that the original Tulkun Hunt cue was 7 minutes (not including the Hometree re recording part). The scene changes though so the final version is shorter. I guess in a few cases the edit might have changed after the cues were recorded or he just wanted the music to hit the cuts differently in those cases. 

[leeallen01 2,169]

Cameron interview on Soundtracking with Edith Bowman. Talking about the score and the film in general.

 

https://audioboom.com/posts/8237587-episode-350-james-cameron-on-the-music-of-avatar

[leeallen01 2,169]

Just saw it for the 6th time (I know lol) and I really loved the alternate Na'vi Attack cue that is in the film. After Payakan goes badass and lands on the ship, it's different than the score piece, with an incredibly badass build-up to when the Metkayina start their attack run. And also, my god (or should I say Eywa) I really want that soft voices female choir rendition of the Family Theme as Jake is giving himself up and Neytiri is pleading with him. Gorgeous. Also the Darkness and Light cue begins differently in the film with more piano build up before the melody begins on Cello.

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

15 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Just saw it for the 6th time

 

 

[leeallen01 2,169]

3 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

 

 

[tomsmoviemadness 3,466]

We just had someone in the news in my country who went more than a 100 times. So 6 doesn't seem that much. Haha

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

4 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

We just had someone in the news in my country who went more than a 100 times. So 6 doesn't seem that much. Haha

 

Well, he fell asleep the first 99 times.

[leeallen01 2,169]

6 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

We just had someone in the news in my country who went more than a 100 times. So 6 doesn't seem that much. Haha

 

How is that even possible... that's like twice a day since it came out. 

 

I better up my game.

[tomsmoviemadness 3,466]

Hahah. No worries. I haven't seen it once.

 

But yeah that around 13 days in total non stop. So it's quite the achievement.

[Taikomochi 1,201]

I saw it four times and thought that was excessive. Christ…

[Mr. Who 974]

2 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

Just saw it for the 6th time (I know lol) and I really loved the alternate Na'vi Attack cue that is in the film. After Payakan goes badass and lands on the ship, it's different than the score piece, with an incredibly badass build-up to when the Metkayina start their attack run. And also, my god (or should I say Eywa) I really want that soft voices female choir rendition of the Family Theme as Jake is giving himself up and Neytiri is pleading with him. Gorgeous. Also the Darkness and Light cue begins differently in the film with more piano build up before the melody begins on Cello.

Awesome! I’ve seen it three times so far and am going to go at least once more. The choir je you mention is probably my favourite missing cue. It’s a real shame that it wasn’t on the ost. Franglen said that the original version of that cue is much longer and that just a part of it was used in the film.

[leeallen01 2,169]

I'm begging for some kind of complete recordings. That's extremely unlikely, but I'll take a few extra pieces in a collectors edition or film versions of the tracks as an alternate; like 'Na'vi Attack' and 'Na'vi Attack alternate' for example.

[Trope 729]

Not sure if this link will work, but JoAnn Kane Music Service just posted this score page from Franglen's score: 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0ezCDWTmMGZH9cJoSYDAG73GZSwQGeMYevNCnasarwb7kNnV8eVNKJPWaUfxker62l&id=100063692612491&mibextid=5zvaxg

 

Here's a screenshot of it - Does anyone recognise this being from any particular album track?

 

[Taikomochi 1,201]

One thing I’d like if we get more is the full version of “Na’vi Attack”.  There’s actually a lot more of that awesome Payakan material that is not on the album version