Simon Franglen's AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[Thor 5793]

1 minute ago, Edmilson said:

I want to build a time machine and go back to that fateful day in 2015 to stop Horner from climbing onto that plane.

 

Don't we all!

[Tydirium 841]

Is the soundtrack available to purchase anywhere in FLAC?

[MaxMovieMan 73]

4 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

 

 

Personally, I love the new Franglen theme heard in 'The Tulkun Return.' 

 

Very Horner-esque and hummable.

Yeah that track was a highlight for me for sure.

[Mr. Who 633]

32 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I want to build a time machine and go back to that fateful day in 2015 to stop Horner from climbing onto that plane.

Yeah Avatar is my second favorite Horner score and I will always wonder what Horner would have done with this great movie and the sequels.
 

Franglen’s work is great though and I’m very happy about the music especially under the circumstances. It’s not Horner of course but the score is respectful of the first score and Horner’s sensibilities as a composer while not being a ripoff that mimics him but goes into new directions.

[Edmilson 4497]

I've heard a few samples and didn't care much for it. But I'll listen to the OST later today or tomorrow with an open mind. 

[DangerMotif 562]

6 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Thanks to everyone that has posted their impressions of the score as heard in the film and/or on album. 

 

My question to those that have seen the film, would you recommend first watching it to experience the score in context or should one dive straight into the album?

Watching the movie helps a lot with this one

[Mr. Who 633]

1 hour ago, Gibster said:

Watching the movie helps a lot with this one

I usually find this to be the case with most scores. If I’m planning on watching a movie then I usually don’t listen to the score before I watch it but if I don’t plan on seeing a movie then I can just enjoy the music.

[Bespin 6820]

1 hour ago, Gibster said:

Watching the movie helps a lot with this one

 

Can we listen to this score and watch a blue lava lamp?

[DangerMotif 562]

Is it possible someone can send a timestamp of the family theme from the album? Thank you

[Mr. Who 633]

55 minutes ago, Gibster said:

Is it possible someone can send a timestamp of the family theme from the album? Thank you

The Family theme is used in the End Credits song and appears in many different tracks. For instance the theme is featured heavily in the track Hometree.

[Taikomochi 882]

After a couple listens, I think this score is as good as we could have hoped in the circumstances. Some of it is actually pretty moving. Enjoying the new themes.

 

Yes, the action music is the weak point. I wish it weren’t mixed in such a muddled way that emphasizes the electronics over the orchestra. Everything sounds so processed and plastic. Franglen’s work would seem much stronger if the mix didn’t make it all sound like a generic wall of noise.  Horner’s score did a great job balancing the electronics against the orchestra. Not that the action music would suddenly become good, but it’s really hurt by it. 

[Jay 30970]

Film Music Reporter has the cover art for the expanded album

 

 

http://filmmusicreporter.com/2022/12/15/avatar-the-way-of-water-expanded-score-album-details/

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

Avatar: Bigger, Longer, Uncut.

[TolkienSS 184]

3 hours ago, Taikomochi said:

After a couple listens, I think this score is as good as we could have hoped in the circumstances.

 

What do you mean by circumstances?

The circumstances for this film are that they had years to bring a composer on board, had hundreds of millions to spend, and had pretty much any film composer alive at their disposal that would have liked to write for this film. Except the one that wrote a score 13 years ago.

And I wouldn't say that score was especially among his greats.

 

There's no excuse.

 

I like that a movie that needs a billion or two to be profitable because they spent so much should be excused for not being able to come up with a memorable score.

[Taikomochi 882]

It’s a plenty good score on its own that continues Horner’s sound in a thoughtful, authentic way. It’s imperfect, but I’m not mad about it. If there wasn’t the first score for it to pale in comparison with, it would be a great score with no qualification 

[leeallen01 2003]

Just seen the film. Plenty of lovely Horner moments and some nice new themes from Franglen. Enjoyed the film and score a lot. 

[JTWfan77 1309]

For those that have heard the score, which other scores have similar action music? Just trying to set my expectations up front. Thanks.

 

Also, how does this compare to Franglen's Avatar theme park album?

[crocodile 6853]

I have only heard this in the film. It's sort of a cross between Horner and JNH in terms of overall impression.

 

Karol

[Mr. Who 633]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

For those that have heard the score, which other scores have similar action music? Just trying to set my expectations up front. Thanks.

 

Also, how does this compare to Franglen's Avatar theme park album?

It’s miles beyond the theme park album which is just pleasant. This is a dramatic and emotional film score. I really like it a lot.

1 hour ago, leeallen01 said:

Just seen the film. Plenty of lovely Horner moments and some nice new themes from Franglen. Enjoyed the film and score a lot. 

There is a horn solo somewhere in the 2nd half of the film that sounded really like Horner but it’s not on the album sadly, maybe it will appear on the extended album. I also really enjoyed the use of Horner’s iconic metal percussion which he uses in Titanic a lot and also in Avatar.

 

I checked the track list again for the extended album and it looks like the whole music for the early sequence that shows the return of the Skypeople (between a new star and the train cue) seems to be missing from both albums. It uses a lot of callbacks to the first score with new variations.

 

I have begun working on a theme analysis spreadsheet but will need to see the film to accurately name the themes, unless Franglen does post this info. He already revealed the name of Kiri’s theme. The material for the Skypeople and Quaritch is a bit difficult to pin down after just one listen but there’s definitively at least 3 motifs/themes that I’ve noticed so far relating to the humans.

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Film Music Reporter has the cover art for the expanded album

 

 

http://filmmusicreporter.com/2022/12/15/avatar-the-way-of-water-expanded-score-album-details/

This is a lot better than the regular edition cover. There’s so much beautiful artwork for this score that could have been used for the regular release.

[WampaRat 1095]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

For those that have heard the score, which other scores have similar action music? Just trying to set my expectations up front. Thanks.

I’d say the action music skews closer to some of the more contemporary action sound Horner was toying with in The Amazing Spider-Man (“Subway Rumble” comes to mind.) Horner’s take on the RCP sound. Also Franglen ran with that sound in a lot of the action tracks of  Magnificent Seven. Not sure if that was part of Horner’s original sketches/suite for that score before he died. It can seem a bit abrasive and a tad simplistic at times. But other times it really sounds like a contemporary Horner wrote it (“Navi Attack” is a ball-buster cue on par with “War” from the first film)I don’t believe Horner would have scored this film that much differently in all honesty. Perhaps his themes would have been a tad more  pronounced. The action a biiit more refined and mixed a bit clearer so it’s not so “wall of sound-y”. But I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t moved a handful of times while listening to this. It took a tad to get going for me. A little “nature documentary-y” at first. But it really starts to cook after the first third or so. It’s a great tribute at best and a decent standalone score at worst. I’m sure I’ll appreciate it more when I see the film.

 

PS- “Songcord” is a really lovely take on the new theme (family theme?) for this film. Sung beautifully by Zoe Saldana.  Maybe start with that first and then you can hear it develop throughout the score. Lots of great iterations of it.

[Mr. Who 633]

41 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

PS- “Songcord” is a really lovely take on the new theme (family theme?) for this film. Sung beautifully by Zoe Saldana.  Maybe start with that first and then you can hear it develop throughout the score. Lots of great iterations of it.

The songcord actually plays very early in film so it is a good way to start the ost. The extended album which is chronological will have the songcord (not the same version as the version we have on the regular album) as track 2.

[Taikomochi 882]

Anyone else hate the way “The Spirit Tree” ends? Without having seen the film, it seems like it is meant to lead into a reprise of the credits music from the first film. So anticlimactic how it ends. Hoping that it ends up on the expanded album. 

[WampaRat 1095]

Is it supposed to go into the song by The Weekend?

[Mr. Who 633]

54 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

Is it supposed to go into the song by The Weekend?

Correct.

[crocodile 6853]

I am pretty sure Horner’s theme plays over some of the main on ends at least. I haven't heard the album though yet.

 

Karol

[Mr. Who 633]

6 hours ago, crocodile said:

I am pretty sure Horner’s theme plays over some of the main on ends at least. I haven't heard the album though yet.

 

Karol

I can't remember if that's the case but it's possible. I definitively remember there being a smooth transition from the final cue into the song (which sounded different to me in the movie than on the OST).

[Mr. Who 633]

After listening to the album a second time I like the score even more. The Family theme is great and I think Kiri's theme is my second favorite of the new themes. It is used in quite a few tracks and the variation in 'From Darkness to Light' it's brilliant how Kiri's theme is used alongside the Family theme with the choir. Really looking forward to the extended album.

 

Hopefully Disney upload a FYC. 20th Century did put out one for the first score with all the cues basically.

[publicist 4635]

Nice for a background listen, like one of those countless Zimmer et al. nature documentary scores. I am convinced Simon Franglen is just an AI that put together 50% recent Horner stylistics and 50% trailer clichés and that's the result. 

[Jurassic Shark 9331]

He should change his name to James Horner Jr.

[publicist 4635]

No he shouldn't. To have some assistent hack elevated to mad genius level is wrong on all levels.

[Drawgoon 79]

I wonder what this was going to sound like had they brought JNH as the composer. That man has a knack for finding musical inspirations in fantasy films that deal with water somehow.

[publicist 4635]

Never doubt Cameron's talent for submerging any composer's original talent.

[Thor 5793]

20 minutes ago, publicist said:

Never doubt Cameron's talent for submerging any composer's original talent.

 

You're precise in your description of Franglen (loved that A.I. comment), but this isn't quite accurate, is it? On the contrary, I'd say he has inspired the best out of the composers he's worked with (up until now). ALIENS, TITANIC, THE ABYSS and the TERMINATORs are each considered some of the best work by each of the composers.

[publicist 4635]

I never forget that Don Davis interview which i will quote here (it proves Cameron musically has something like the lowest common denominator and has been pretty successful running with it):

 

Quote

Actually, I gained a lot of respect for Horner during Titanic, because Horner was accommodating Cameron in ways that I thought a composer the stature of Horner had no reason to accommodate anyone. He completely handled the situation with absolute humility and professionalism. I don't think there are very many composers who would have acquiesced to Jim Cameron the way Horner did. Horner gave Jim exactly what he wanted. I think there are some people who think that the Titanic score may be overly simplistic, or some people object to the Celtic nature of it, or whatever, but I can tell you that if any other composer had scored that picture, Jim would have fired him and at least four other composers before he got what he wanted.

 

[Thor 5793]

Well, nobody said he was easy to work with, or had the most musical savviness. But somehow, these great, iconic scores turned out of the process nonetheless.

[publicist 4635]

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

Well, nobody said he was easy to work with, or had the most musical savviness. But somehow, these great, iconic scores turned out of the process nonetheless.

 

That's were we differentiate: i consider this stuff loved by either deaf guys or guys who are much more in love with movies than with music (as Music). Is Abyss great? Titanic? Probably for guys that like movies more than music, but to me as a purely music-driven person, i have a hard time accepting that people find stuff like that the pinnacle of the medium.

[GerateWohl 2500]

I actually thought, when I listened to the Deluxe Edition of Aliens what a good job Cameron did in the music selection leaving out all these heroic militaristic fanfares Horner composed and just using the suspense and action music, which made the movie much better than it would have been putting all of Horner's music in like replacing the fanfares for the landing preparation just with these military snare drums. There I thought, Cameron really knows what He is doing. But that was long before Avatar.

[Thor 5793]

8 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

That's were we differentiate: i consider this stuff loved by either deaf guys or guys who are much more in love with movies than with music (as Music). Is Abyss great? Titanic? Probably for guys that like movies more than music, but to me as a purely music-driven person, i have a hard time accepting that people find stuff like that the pinnacle of the medium.

 

Ouch.

 

THE ABYSS is one of three scores that got me into film music in the first place in the early 90s (the other two being TWIN PEAKS and JURASSIC PARK), so it's like a family member to me. Love it dearly -- both the chilly, electronic underwater music, the military, percussive stuff and the religioso awe and wonder kitch at the end. TITANIC is an amazing score that deserved all the kudos it got. It always pleased me that teenage girls got the -- at times -- harrowing and dissonant score to go with their purchase of a Celine Dion song.  I consider ALIENS Horner's second-greatest score of all time, after THE BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMAS. And THE TERMINATORs, for all their unlistenability on their own, are IMO the pinnacle of how to do sound design-inspired scores.

 

So yeah, definitely pinnacles of their medium, all of those.

[publicist 4635]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Ouch.

 

THE ABYSS is one of three scores that got me into film music in the first place in the early 90s (the other two being TWIN PEAKS and JURASSIC PARK), so it's like a family member to me. Love it dearly -- both the chilly, electronic underwater music, the military, percussive stuff and the religioso awe and wonder kitch at the end. TITANIC is an amazing score that deserved all the kudos it got. It always pleased me that teenage girls got the -- at times -- harrowing and dissonant score to go with their purchase of a Celine Dion song.  I consider ALIENS Horner's second-greatest score of all time, after THE BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMAS. And THE TERMINATORs, for all their unlistenability on their own, are IMO the pinnacle of how to do sound design-inspired scores.

 

So yeah, definitely pinnacles of their medium, all of those.

 

 

Thor, you have Van Gogh's ear for music. 

[Thor 5793]

The one that’s left, presumably.

[publicist 4635]

13 minutes ago, Thor said:

The one that’s left, presumably.

 

No, take another pick. But hey, if there are guys who think 'The Abyss' is good music, who am i to argue?

 

But this doesn't belong in a AVATAR 2-thread but a much bigger question FILMmusic vs. filmMUSIC. Sadly you would have to title it 'User Mattris from Star Wars Disenchantment thread held captive Kathleen Kennedy until she confessed that Emperor Palpatine was Jabba's brother' to get some attention.

 

[Romão 2066]

I mean, I like the Aliens score, it's a fun and often thrilling score, but it's mostly an amalgamation of ideas best explored in other scores. I really do think the movie's reputation has a lot do with the score's popularity

[Thor 5793]

5 minutes ago, Romão said:

I mean, I like the Aliens score, it's a fun and often thrilling score, but it's mostly an amalgamation of ideas best explored in other scores. I really do think the movie's reputation has a lot do with the score's popularity

Oh gosh, don’t even get me started on this masterpiece.

 

Perhaps suited for another thread, though.

[Romão 2066]

I just don't think Cameron has ever been able to bring out of the very best of any composer. His musical instincts are too populist, so to speak

[crocodile 6853]

Listening to the album right now. It is fine actually, not quite unlike what Franglen did with Horner stuff on The Magnificent Seven. Yes, it is somewhat of a "modern trailer on steroids" take on his sound but, to be frank, the previous score already established that. It's quite pleasant in and out of context and, like the film, I enjoy it for what it is but with no great attachment.

 

The opening song track, however... well... let's just not talk about that.

 

Karol

[publicist 4635]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

I actually thought, when I listened to the Deluxe Edition of Aliens what a good job Cameron did in the music selection leaving out all these heroic militaristic fanfares Horner composed and just using the suspense and action music, which made the movie much better than it would have been putting all of Horner's music in like replacing the fanfares for the landing preparation just with these military snare drums. There I thought, Cameron really knows what He is doing. But that was long before Avatar.

 

All these heroic militaristic fanfares? You mean that one 3-minute cue? Big deal.

[Thor 5793]

3 minutes ago, Romão said:

I just don't think Cameron has ever been able to bring out of the very best of any composer. His musical instincts are too populist, so to speak

Sorry to hear it. As with publicist, I disagree fundamentally with that.

[Richard Penna 2504]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

That's were we differentiate: i consider this stuff loved by either deaf guys or guys who are much more in love with movies than with music (as Music). Is Abyss great? Titanic? Probably for guys that like movies more than music, but to me as a purely music-driven person, i have a hard time accepting that people find stuff like that the pinnacle of the medium.

 

It's one thing to make it known that scores A/B/C aren't for you, but to just call everyone who does like them tone deaf... what the heck is that achieving?

[Mephariel 309]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

That's were we differentiate: i consider this stuff loved by either deaf guys or guys who are much more in love with movies than with music (as Music). Is Abyss great? Titanic? Probably for guys that like movies more than music, but to me as a purely music-driven person, i have a hard time accepting that people find stuff like that the pinnacle of the medium.

 

A bit arrogant isn't it? I am the opposite of a snobby film music traditionist and I loved Titanic, but even traditionists like Clemmensen gave Titanic five stars and said it "could very well end up being considered the crowning achievement of Horner's entire career."

[Mr. Who 633]

The great thing about music is that everyone can listen to and enjoy whatever they want. There’s no need to make sweeping declarations about music that other people like.