Simon Franglen's AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[Jay 37,287]

Franglen has put up a twitter poll asking fans which medium they'd want a physical release on:

 

 

[leeallen01 2,133]

How dare any of these heathens vote no physical media in favour of streaming.

[enderdrag64 624]

There's also this too:

 

[1977 1,743]

Imagine Franglen's bemusement when a bunch of soundtrack fans respond "Yes!"

[leeallen01 2,133]

Lotr complete recordings aren't complete enough for us weirdos.

[blondheim 1,157]

13 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Lotr complete recordings aren't complete enough for us weirdos.

Well two of them pretty much are.

[D_A_R_T_H 24]

I made this (it's very imperfect)

01 Intro                                         
02 Songcord Opening  A                           
03 Happiness Is Simple  A                         
04 A New Star  A                                   
05 Blue Miles                                   
06 Train Attack   A                         
07 Quaritch Plan                                     
08 The High Camp part 1                              
09 The High Camp part 2 (2m3) *                  
10 Hi Mom !                                           
11 Masks Off         A                           
12 Converging Paths  A                                
13 The Old Camp - Captured                           
14 Rescue and Loss     A                             
15 Family Is Our Fortress  A                           
16 Sanctuary A                                      
17 The Metkayina Clan                                 
18 Into the Water A                                
19 Spider's New Job                               
20 The Ilu  (03m3-4s) *                             
21 Training Montage A                                
22 Underwater (01m5 - 04m3 end)  *         
23 The Way of Water  A                               
24 Bonding With Banshee                              
25 Contemplating                                 
26 Teenage Brawl  (2m1r 3m5)                 
27 Where the Men Hunt A                              
28 Submarine Hunt                                 
29 Hunted & Saved                                    
30 Payakan A                                         
31 Mighty Eywa A                                      
32 Back to the Village                              
33 you don't understand                             
34 Friends A                                          
35 Cove of the Ancestors A                           
36 I Need to Know                           
38 Healing                                         
39 Hologram                                         
40 The Seadragon                                   
41 The Tulkun Return  A                              
42 Burned Village                                    
43 They Are Looking For You                       
44 The Story of Payakan                            
45 Killing Only Leads to More Killing               
46 You're One of Us Now                           
47 The Hunt  A                                   
48 The Amrita (01m4RR)  *                          
49 Discovering the Slaughter                                        
50 Save the Tulkun                                 
51 Lo'ak's Disobedience                            
52 Kids in Peril                                    
53 Submarine Units                                  
54 Captured                                        
55 Na'vi in Approach                                
56 I Come Alone                                     
57 Na'vi Attack  A                                   
58 The Battle Continues                            
59 A Farewell to Arm   A                             
60 Abandon Ship                                      
61 Kiri Captured                                     
62 Wounded                                        
63 Eclipse A                                         
64 Night Attack                                    
65 Bad Parents A                                      
66 Knife Fight   A                                   
67 World Upside Down A                                
68 Rescue                                        
69 From Darkness to Light A                           
70 Come With Me                                   
71 Family   A                                        
72 Songcord Chapter   A                             
73 Our home is Here (02m1a)  *                        
74 The Spirit Tree  A                              
75 The Weeknd ''Nothing Is Lost'' (You Give Me Strength) A
76 Leaving Home   A                                      
77 Zoe Saldana ''The Songcord'' A

A Album
* From "Avatar" recording sessions  

[karelm 2,903]

On 03/01/2023 at 8:51 AM, enderdrag64 said:

There's also this too:

 

I would LOVE to hear 5 hours.  But I'm a weirdo who sat through 14 hours of Wagner.  

[Faleel 5,339]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

I would LOVE to hear 5 hours.  But I'm a weirdo who sat through 14 hours of Wagner.  

5 hrs is small-time;)

[leeallen01 2,133]

I find myself so moved by random little moments of this score. Whether it's the string writing behind a thematic idea, or the solo voices and choir moments. 

 

This tiny moment in The Spirit Tree at 2:13 - 2:22 where the strings rise and fall behind the Family theme is so Horner that I want to cry like a baby.

 

 

[Bounty95 557]

 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I honestly can’t tell how sarcastic he is being in some of these replies. For now, I’m gonna assume such a thing is not happening, but, who knows, he seems to reply to a lot of these requests. Would be awesome if he did. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,029]

I assume he meant to write I'd have to do...

[Bounty95 557]

At least it's good that he knows people want to hear more of his music. 

[Richard Penna 3,670]

I'm curious as to why some things had to 'fall off the plate' given that it's a digital release.

 

Even if he were aiming for a CD release there would still be room for another hour or so of music

[Jurassic Shark 12,029]

It takes time to mix for album release.

[Richard Penna 3,670]

On 03/01/2023 at 9:06 PM, leeallen01 said:

Lotr complete recordings aren't complete enough for us weirdos.

 

Most things released during the dawn of expansions aren't complete enough for us now.

 

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It takes time to mix for album release.

 

Even better, just release the mix that's in the film. I hate layers and instruments being put back in for the album.

 

Or just delay the expansion by a few weeks and do it properly.

[Jurassic Shark 12,029]

He probably wants to curate the music to make it stand on its own as much as possible. 

[Edmilson 7,392]

Still, it's rather odd he chose not to include the submarine chasing kids cue, not even on the so called Expanded edition. There were certainly room for more material besides just those 100 minutes.

 

Maybe he didn't want to include those cues because they were written by additional composers or orchestrators, and he wanted to prioritize his own material?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

It’s also possible he had less leverage to do so before the film was a known success with regards to licensing fees and such. It does strike me as odd how much control he seemingly has over the music, but I guess we don’t really know. 

[crumbs 14,300]

Yep. Plus we don't really understand how the AFM fees affect digital/streaming releases or expanded versions released alongside (or very soon after) the original soundtrack. There might be a grace period where they don't have to pay additional fees. We do know there's no fees applicable to an OST release.

 

I suspect that's the reason studios/composers are now releasing standard and expanded/deluxe versions in tandem, because they probably fall under the same category.

 

It certainly reiterates how outdated and ill-thought out these rules are.

[LSH 968]

Wow, five stars from Clemmensen.

 

https://www.filmtracks.com/titles/avatar_water.html

[Taikomochi 1,136]

The spiciest part of that review is that he suggests it is better than the original. I can see the argument for it, though I’m not yet sure where I land

[Tydirium 1,166]

3 hours ago, Taikomochi said:

The spiciest part of that review is that he suggests it is better than the original. I can see the argument for it, though I’m not yet sure where I land

I am actually inclined to agree. I’ve been thinking of posting that exact sentiment here the past couple days (been too busy). I know it’s basically sacrilege to say, but I actually do find myself enjoying Franglen’s more than Horner’s. Of course I love how Horner defined the sound of the franchise, and the themes he wrote for the first… But I honestly might even prefer how Franglen handles those themes. And imo, nothing in the first score beats tracks like “The Tulkun Return.” And I think I may even prefer “Train Attack” and “Na’vi Attack” to “War.” I generally love Horner’s action writing, but even after all these years, “War” has never grabbed me the way those two Franglen tracks have. I say all this as a huge Horner fan, too.

[LSH 968]

34 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

I am actually inclined to agree. I’ve been thinking of posting that exact sentiment here the past couple days (been too busy). I know it’s basically sacrilege to say, but I actually do find myself enjoying Franglen’s more than Horner’s. Of course I love how Horner defined the sound of the franchise, and the themes he wrote for the first… But I honestly might even prefer how Franglen handles those themes. And imo, nothing in the first score beats tracks like “The Tulkun Return.” And I think I may even prefer “Train Attack” and “Na’vi Attack” to “War.” I generally love Horner’s action writing, but even after all these years, “War” has never grabbed me the way those two Franglen tracks have. I say all this as a huge Horner fan, too.

 

I'm also inclined to agree. Franglen has obviously - and deliberately - written this score with Horner's DNA as a starting point, and he has succeeded massively in doing that. Yes, we can hear the previous Avatar in it and it's packed with Horner sensibilities (Clemmensen quite rightly said that the score contains a huge number of very tastefully placed Horner 'Easter Eggs' - little moments that will remind you of countless Horner signatures) but Franglen has also superseded that and very much made it his own... which gives me high hopes for what comes next. 

[midgemania 54]

Same disclaimer as declaring myself an unashamed Franglen fan aside, I’m coming around to this way of thinking as well. There’s a thematic consistency to Franglen’s score that is missing from the first film, and Clemmensen is right to point this out in his review. Franglen’s last few scores have been so refreshingly thematic - it’s so nice to hear a more traditional leitmotif-based approach to scoring that is also still adhering to more contemporary orchestral and synthesised textures. There are so few modern composers who have this balance - Desplat and Powell at their best certainly do, Giacchino for a third of every film he scores before he forgets to write another tune. But for most modern composers, melody and thematic identity are abandoned in favour of “epic”. 
 

I do, however, believe that Franglen’s score is elevated when listening to the soundtrack album as opposed to seeing it in the movie, which is a real shame as I think that the opposite is true of Horner’s score. I’ve seen the film 4 times now, and I’m increasingly of the view that the music dub is exceedingly poor. It’s consistently too quiet, is poorly edited and I’m now almost convinced that Cameron has just tracked Horner’s work from the first film as an afterthought when something wasn’t working for him in Franglen’s music. I love the end of ‘The Hunt’ on the Album, and in the film it’s a neutered mess - hacked around, whole sections of instrumentation muted, and then a truly awful music edit of Destruction of Hometree right at its conclusion. 
 

It’s arguably worse in the final act. I don’t think there’s anything as egregious as Cameron’s brutalising of ‘War’ from the first film (or Aliens for that matter…), but it’s nonetheless exceedingly poor. ‘ Bad Parents’ has a brutal, almost industrial drive to it on the album, but in the film it’s reduced to a series of hacked gestures that has no flow or life to it. I also find myself increasingly frustrated by the mix of the final cue ‘The Spirit Tree’. There’s such a melancholic operatic quality to the cue that absolutely soars in its final third, but just as it’s reaching its climax, Cameron yanks the level down for an anodyne and entirely unnecessary voiceover. 
 

Anyway, clearly the public disagrees as the film is doing astoundingly well (as it should in my opinion). But I’m just frustrated that Franglen’s accomplished work isn’t given the best opportunity to shine in the medium for which it’s really intended - the film itself. 

[leeallen01 2,133]

3 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I am actually inclined to agree. I’ve been thinking of posting that exact sentiment here the past couple days (been too busy). I know it’s basically sacrilege to say, but I actually do find myself enjoying Franglen’s more than Horner’s. Of course I love how Horner defined the sound of the franchise, and the themes he wrote for the first… But I honestly might even prefer how Franglen handles those themes. And imo, nothing in the first score beats tracks like “The Tulkun Return.” And I think I may even prefer “Train Attack” and “Na’vi Attack” to “War.” I generally love Horner’s action writing, but even after all these years, “War” has never grabbed me the way those two Franglen tracks have. I say all this as a huge Horner fan, too.

 

 

I love both and personally have no real preference, considering Franglen's 'sound' and several thematic ideas and overall style are built from Horner's original score.

 

But as a 'theme' guy, I am obsessed with analysing themes throughout a score, and Franglen's is a little more dedicated to that aspect of writing, whereas Horner's was more texture based, even though his thematic writing is still very evident.

 

However, to say that you prefer Franglen's action music over Horner's is the opposite of my feelings. Of course, to each their own, but on a purely academic level, and even on a feeling level, for me, Horner's 'War' is one of the best pieces of action scoring ever written. Yes, I'm that serious. It is a powerhouse of a piece, and while I think Franglen's action scoring is great, I feel pieces like 'Na'vi Attack' and 'Train Attack' do not reach the stratospheric heights of 'War.'

[1977 1,743]

5 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I know it’s basically sacrilege to say, but I actually do find myself enjoying Franglen’s more than Horner’s.

 

Well I've certainly listened to Franglen's score more in the past three weeks than I have to Horner's during the past 13 years 

 

Not saying Franglen's is necessarily better but it sure clicked with me

[LSH 968]

23 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

 

Well I've certainly listened to Franglen's score more in the past three weeks than I have to Horner's during the past 13 years 

 

Not saying Franglen's is necessarily better but it sure clicked with me

 

Same here. I really like Horner's original but this is turning out to be so much more listenable.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just seen it for the 3rd time. Definitely want that alternate Tulkun/Underwater theme in the end credits. 

 

I swear I heard another version of the family theme as well, in quiet, solemn choir in the third act. 

 

I also noticed either a new theme or an existing one that I'm blanking on. But in the scene where Jake is training to ride the Skimwing (taking his first flight, you might say), we hear what I thought was a nod to Horner's heroic theme for Jake.

 

At 1:50 - 

 

 

Which sounds like an evolution of this at 2:24 when Jake is accomplishing a similar act. 

 

 

 

But then I got confused... Because I heard a variation of that Franglen's Skimwing flight in the moment when the hunters are killing the Tulkun mother and baby. 

 

Here at 4:55 - 

 

 

 

I'm probably just hearing things, but while watching the film, I made the connection for some reason.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

You are right about the solemn statement of the family theme on choir which would go right between “Kids in Trouble” and “Navi Attack”. One of my most desired unreleased moments.

 

Not sure I hear the theme you are describing in Training Montage. They sound more like slightly similar but unrelated moments

[Tydirium 1,166]

I love all the attention/accolades Franglen is getting for this score. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

 

 

[leeallen01 2,133]

Imagine the weight involved on his shoulders. He must have gone through the last few years thinking that he's got to nail this because not only is it one of the biggest films ever made, but it's taking over from one of the all-time greats and his own friend. I'm so happy for him that he's got the best outcome possible. People love the film and his music.

[1977 1,743]

On 06/01/2023 at 5:06 AM, LSH said:

Wow, five stars from Clemmensen.

 

https://www.filmtracks.com/titles/avatar_water.html

 

A fantastic review, the content of which I agree with completely 👍

[leeallen01 2,133]

I really love the soundscape that Franglen created for Payakan. Those moments when Lo'ak wakes up on his back, and then when we get the iconic poster shot in the thumbnail of the video below of Lo'ak and Payakan essentially holding hands in the wide shot. The soundscape of 'awe' really sells the majesty and size of the Tulkun. The imagery and score has a powerful religious quality to it. You can almost hear the church organ.

 

Heard at 0:10 and 3:15 -

 

 

 

[Tydirium 1,166]

New from Jon Burlingame:

 

https://variety.com/2023/artisans/news/avatar-way-of-water-score-simon-franglen-1235482625/

[midgemania 54]

“What Jim wanted was a more thematic score than ‘Avatar 1,'” he says. “So we defined certain key themes that he wanted. He also wanted a change of direction in the action music, a more muscular approach, more drive and less orchestral filigree.”
 

This was an especially interesting part of the linked article. I wonder if Franglen originally wrote some action music closer to Horner’s style from the first film, and was asked to change to the more modern style that is in the score. Franglen did state on his Twitter that he wrote 5 hours of material, so there’s quite a bit on the cutting room floor. 

[leeallen01 2,133]

I heard that yeah it a few interviews he mentioned rewriting the action music. It seems he went more thematic with the action scoring, like Horner, but was told to maybe make it more brutal and non-melodic, to strip the RDA and humans in general of melody, and give them a more technological, industrial soundscape, and keep the grand thematic writing to the pure nature and Na'vi.

 

I've been listening to a lot of Franglen interviews on the score and got some juicy info throughout. E.g. In the first Avatar score with Horner, for the rhythmic drumming beats behind some of the Na'vi music, Franglen actually recording himself beating his chest, and that is in fact what we hear in the final score. 

 

Also, the Songchord performance from Zoe Saldana was recorded live on-set, and the final audio in the film is actually the live recording on the Performance capture stage. It wasn't re-recorded in a recording studio.

 

He also mentioned that he has written music already for the 3rd film, and that of course he held back from fully developing certain themes in the 2nd film, because of their importance going forward with the characters development. I assume he is referring to Kiri, as her theme seems like the one with the furthest to go with more development.

 

I also wondered personally why it sounded almost triumphant at some of the moments during the Tulkun Hunt, and Franglen said that was intentional. They decided the music should show the tragedy, but also the sick fun that the hunters were having killing the mother and her calf, so Franglen made the music feel like a sick triumphant tragedy, which is illustrated perfectly below at 4:41-5:00 in 'The Hunt' - 

 

 

[midgemania 54]

2 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

I also wondered personally why it sounded almost triumphant at some of the moments during the Tulkun Hunt, and Franglen said that was intentional. They decided the music should show the tragedy, but also the sick fun that the hunters were having killing the mother and her calf, so Franglen made the music feel like a sick triumphant tragedy, which is illustrated perfectly below at 4:41-5:00 in 'The Hunt' - 

 

 

I’m so baffled as to how anyone can hear the end to this cue and think that Franglen’s music is the same old anodyne, ostinato-driven, derivative mediocrity that plagues so many modern film scores. This, to my ears at least, is thrilling scoring of a very high level. It perhaps doesn’t ascend to the absolute heights of the great action scores, but very few do. It’s certainly a good deal better than most, if not all, action music currently being written. 

[leeallen01 2,133]

19 hours ago, midgemania said:

I’m so baffled as to how anyone can hear the end to this cue and think that Franglen’s music is the same old anodyne, ostinato-driven, derivative mediocrity that plagues so many modern film scores. This, to my ears at least, is thrilling scoring of a very high level. It perhaps doesn’t ascend to the absolute heights of the great action scores, but very few do. It’s certainly a good deal better than most, if not all, action music currently being written. 

 

The action scoring is just getting better for me with every listen. 

 

Like this piece for example - 

 

It has a very catchy, rhythmic repeating phrase on strings that drives the piece, with accompanying percussion, and then it'll just explode into the most glorious heroic version of the Family Theme at 1:50. And we even get another couple of Family Theme variations later at 2:37 in a defeated way, and finally again at 3:08 as it tries to hold on, but the full theme can't make it.

 

Brilliant musical storytelling.

 

 

[DangerMotif 1,037]

 

[leeallen01 2,133]

Just about to post that interview haha. Some great new information; like how he has actually written a longer Songchord to include the story of the entire Sully family, not just Neteyam and Kiri that we hear in the current one.

[Mr. Who 919]

On 11/1/2023 at 11:40 AM, leeallen01 said:

 

The action scoring is just getting better for me with every listen. 

 

Like this piece for example - 

 

It has a very catchy, rhythmic repeating phrase on strings that drives the piece, with accompanying percussion, and then it'll just explode into the most glorious heroic version of the Family Theme at 1:50. And we even get another couple of Family Theme variations later at 2:37 in a defeated way, and finally again at 3:08 as it tries to hold on, but the full theme can't make it.

 

Brilliant musical storytelling.

 

 

I love this cue! The avatar sequel scores are definitively some of my most anticipated scores in the coming years!

[leeallen01 2,133]

I asked him on twitter about hearing the full Songchord and he said it's a question for Jim haha. 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Bad Parents fuckin’ slaps, a true banger of an action cue

[Mr. Who 919]

21 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

Bad Parents fuckin’ slaps, a true banger of an action cue

It has some great titanic influences as well with the choir, strings and the metal percussion.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Good and funny interview with Jon Burlingham.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/simon-franglen/id1476844445?i=1000594394315 

[leeallen01 2,133]

 

 

Just seen it a 4th time and was listening to the score specifically. I heard a lovely choral, maybe solo voice multiplied, of the Family theme as Jake is giving himself up to Quaritch before Payakan's boss moment. It's not on the score.

 

Also I focused on the lovely call-backs to Horner's material. Gorgeous moments where there are beautifully long and sweeping statements of the love theme (I see you). Especially as the film opens, then with Jake's date night with Neytiri, then Tuk, Tsireya and Kiri riding the Ilu underwater, and finally Kiri bonding with the Spirit Tree.

 

Also a great reprisal of Jake's theme at the end, which isn't on the score, when he says "a son for a son" and he is hugging Spider. There is a nod to Jake's theme at 2:15 here - But it isn't what's in the film -

 

 

 

What's in the film is a Jake's theme statement that mirrors the statement from Horner as Jake sends the humans home heard at 9:50 here - 

 

 

[John F 100]

I wish more of this score would get released… a couple juicy bonus cues would be nice. Come on Simon!

[blondheim 1,157]

10 hours ago, John F said:

I wish more of this score would get released… a couple juicy bonus cues would be nice. Come on Simon!

 I remember when one CD was all you got for yeeeaaarrrrsssss.