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Attack of the Clones was released 20 years ago today


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2 minutes ago, Van_Etten said:

The plan is to track the Falcon to the rebel base and destroy it.


I’ve thought that but…They escape. Vader wanted Leia and Chewie to stay with him. If he wanted to let them go and track them to the base, why would he do that? 
 

He wanted to capture them. And space is huge. Without hyperdrive they may never reach their fleet. Remember they haven’t had hyperdrive since Hoth. All the other rebel ships hyper space away. 
 

 

Just now, Naïve Old Fart said:

I suppose that it highlights the (often extreme) differences between the spoken word, and the written word. My apologies if my reply was a little forceful.

I just don't like to see JWfaners having a go at each other, for whatever reason. There's enough shit in the world, without us turning on each other.

For the record, I've never seen a single second of THE SOPRANOS.

 


Oh wow. Off topic, but you must remedy that immediately. It’s such a great show. One of the best written series to ever grace the small screen. Between Mad Men, The Wire, Deadwood & The Sopranos, I’d say Sopranos takes the cake. I wish I was you just so I could see it again for the first time. 

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Aren't we confusing ANH with TESB?

 

1 minute ago, Mr. Gitz said:

...space is huge.

Space is big, really big. You won't believe just how mind-boggingly big it is. You may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts, to space.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Gitz said:

 Mad Men

(Y)

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Gitz said:

The Wire

Also (Y), but I've always preferred N.Y.P.D. BLUE.

 

I'll try to catch THE SOPRANOS, but...

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Gitz said:

Deadwood

 

:worship:

 

Along with SIX FEET UNDER, and THE RANCH, it's my favourite American TV show, this century.

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11 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said:

@DarthDementous

 

Are you purposefully being obtuse?

 

You are literally misunderstanding the difference between the light & the dark side and how it pertains to each other’s philosophy. You are claiming things not found in anything in Yoda says. He says it’s “difficult to see” the future. Notice he does not say “impossible” or that it’s “fleeting” or whatever other terms you’ve invented to try to prove your point that I’ve now shown to be moot. 
 

And I think you over estimate your nuance. If there were any in your remarks, I would have addressed them. 
 

as for the issues I brought up in A New Hope, notice how you now move the goal posts. “Oh wait!” You now say. “I didn’t mean that sort of plot issues I meant a very specific kind”. Plot issues are plot issues. My point was to raise the notion that one *could* find these problems in any Star Wars film. Contrivances, coincidences, plot logic. Whatever. It all falls under the verisimilitude I brought up earlier and the leeway fantasy films have with these sorts of things. 
 

Your problem with the film is with a character who can use a supernatural ability of which you clearly do not understand, and too be fair, that’s by design. “The force” allows for quite a bit of latitude when it comes to what is or what is not possible. 
 

Again. There are things the dark side can or will do that Jedi do not or can not do. Ultimately the good guys win. So we know Yoda was correct. So everything proceeded as the emperor had foreseen. Until Luke came along. That’s the downfall of the emperor. Yoda, a light side force user, would not use the “future seeing” ability the same way Palpatine does. I point to force lightning as an example of the difference between the two philosophies. 
 

And by the way I found your “Leniency” comment amusing. Thank you. It’s been awhile since someone has been so utterly patronizing & condescending in a Star Wars conversation. Such trifles will always show one to be desperate. They know they are wrong or misguided & so they start with the ad hominem. 
 

I salute you. I’d say “well done”, but that wouldn’t be true. 
 

“lenient”. Lol.
 

This fuckin’ guy. 


Again the point is one *could* find issue with this. 
 

there are many issues like this. Why don’t the imperial officers shoot down the escape pod? Because no life forms are aboard? What kind of logic is that? It’s an escape pod. Plans are missing that were on that ship. 

 

or in Empire. The At.At can only fire in one direction. And the ships all fly directly at them instead of, oh, I don’t know, coming at them from behind…

 

Why does Vader disable the hyper drive? Why not disable the actual engine? One allows them the possibility to escape, the other does not. 
 

Or in ROTJ The emperor gives the the rebels the actual plans for the Death Star. Why? Why not just give them…oh I don’t know…fake plans? Just incase?(one could say this ties into the whole “over confidence” thing). 

 

again I could go on and on. 


Blimey this went off the rails quickly. I can see how you took the 'lenient' comment as patronizing because I probably didn't phrase it in the best way, text communication is horrible if you're not always assuming the best faith of what someone's tone is. What I meant by that is that I didn't feel like your initial counter was actually a counter to what I said, but I still tried to initially work within the logic you put down, and then came to the conclusion that was kind of a futile exercise because it was getting away from the initial criticisms I had and making me stumble into holding positions I didn't really intend to

I'm fully aware what an ad hominem is or what moving the goalposts are and from my perspective I haven't done either of that. An ad hominem would be if I insulted your character directly without providing any reasoning whatsoever. I don't believe I even insulted your character directly but if you think I have then feel free to point out where. As for moving the goalposts, from my perspective I'm expressing what I always believed but I also think there's been a lot of miscommunication and talking past each other so I can see why it looks like I'm pivoting. I don't really like accusing people of moving the goalposts for this reason, because sometimes the person hasn't fully realized their point or didn't communicate it in the best way. I think it's rather bad faith to assume that someone is pivoting so they can get the edge in a debate, which is usually why moving the goalposts is seen as a bad thing, when 90% of the time they're just attempting to make sure the person understands what they're saying. On that point, I was asking you to apply the same standards I did for criticizing AOTC for criticizing any of the movies from the OT. That standard at its most base level is simply inconsistencies in the world and characters established and what kind of consequences they have on the film experience as a whole, with inconsistencies being more significant with the more relevance they have to the overall movie i.e. how you were judging The Dark Knight. What you presented was that the inciting incident of ANH was extremely coincidental and thus contrived, which is why I brought attention to the discrepancy between that analysis and mine. In other words, what you presented initially was not a 'plot issue' which is what I was calling out, unless you wish to make the argument that inciting incidents are plot issues which we can discuss 

I appreciate the last part of your post though, this is something I would be happy to engage with

'Why don't the Imperial officers shoot down the escape pod?' The answer is in the line immediately after, "It must have short-circuited". The Imperials don't believe there's anyone in there and that it was launched because of a malfunction, which is reasonable given the ship is damaged. What's actually particularly impressive is that despite believing it's a malfunction, the officers still make a note that an escape pod was jettisoned with no life-forms and report it to Vader which demonstrates their competence. It's also a good setup to show how Vader is far more cunning than the regular people in the Empire, because with this information he immediately intuits that the Rebels must've hidden the plans in the escape pod

"The AT-AT can only fire in one direction, and the ships fly directly at them instead of flanking them" There's ground support AT-STs so it's not a case of the Rebels being completely safe flying behind them. They don't 'fly directly at them' either, some snowspeeders get shot down when they get within range of the AT-ATs cannons because they're naturally engaging from the front since that's the direction the AT-ATs are marching from, but others maneuver around and execute the tow-cable strategy

"Why does Vader disable the hyper-drive and not the actual engine?" Vader's Super Star Destroyer is waiting for them in orbit, it's a trap so that he can activate the tractor beam and pull them all aboard it. Disabling the engine would be far less subtle, namely because Lando would realize it immediately when he can't even get the Falcon to fly, and it would give an opportunity for the Rebels to find another ship with a working hyperdrive and escape

"Why does the Emperor give the Rebels the actual plans for the Death Star II?" The Emperor does not leak the plans of the DS2 to the Rebels, he leaks the location: "It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator."

This kind of response is what I want from you and others if you think my issues with AOTC are baloney, going point by point and discrediting them with the film itself. I hope this helps explain why I hold AOTC to the standard I do, because the OT is really quite thoughtful when it comes to these small details and I find myself missing that in the Prequels. I think this kind of discourse is great because we're all drawing from the same source, the film, so it's far easier to be on the same page. When people are using head-canon, external sources, or highly personal things such as taste to drive their criticism then it's really hard to have a discussion because of the lack of common ground there. And to be clear, that's not aimed at you specifically Mr. Gitz

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It’s a fine action piece, like the scene, a little “scattery”, but the last minute of that cue is remarkable, with that pounding rhythmic percussion.  Iirc, they even used it in some of the tv spots. 

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I'm kind of glad the Arena march went unused in Episode 2 because it is really effective heard for the first time with Anakin's march on the Jedi temple, and representing the Clones with the same theme as the 'enemy' was also clever. Good call Lucas/Williams

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I'm currently trying to use the Force to know the chronologic place of this track on the album.

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4 minutes ago, Andy said:

It's remarkable how well it works with the tempo of the troopers' marching footsteps.  If you didn't know, you'd assumed it was composed for that scene.

The awful looping is the best part.

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Honestly, I don't think that's ever bothered me.  I can't recall what the edit sounds like in my mind.

 

When I was very young, things like Hyperspace being tracked into the Snowspeeder search for Luke and Han didn't register for what they were.  I always just thought it was Snowspeeder music AND escape from Bespin music.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 31/5/2022 at 11:11 PM, DarthDementous said:


Blimey this went off the rails quickly. I can see how you took the 'lenient' comment as patronizing because I probably didn't phrase it in the best way, text communication is horrible if you're not always assuming the best faith of what someone's tone is. What I meant by that is that I didn't feel like your initial counter was actually a counter to what I said, but I still tried to initially work within the logic you put down, and then came to the conclusion that was kind of a futile exercise because it was getting away from the initial criticisms I had and making me stumble into holding positions I didn't really intend to

I'm fully aware what an ad hominem is or what moving the goalposts are and from my perspective I haven't done either of that. An ad hominem would be if I insulted your character directly without providing any reasoning whatsoever. I don't believe I even insulted your character directly but if you think I have then feel free to point out where. As for moving the goalposts, from my perspective I'm expressing what I always believed but I also think there's been a lot of miscommunication and talking past each other so I can see why it looks like I'm pivoting. I don't really like accusing people of moving the goalposts for this reason, because sometimes the person hasn't fully realized their point or didn't communicate it in the best way. I think it's rather bad faith to assume that someone is pivoting so they can get the edge in a debate, which is usually why moving the goalposts is seen as a bad thing, when 90% of the time they're just attempting to make sure the person understands what they're saying. On that point, I was asking you to apply the same standards I did for criticizing AOTC for criticizing any of the movies from the OT. That standard at its most base level is simply inconsistencies in the world and characters established and what kind of consequences they have on the film experience as a whole, with inconsistencies being more significant with the more relevance they have to the overall movie i.e. how you were judging The Dark Knight. What you presented was that the inciting incident of ANH was extremely coincidental and thus contrived, which is why I brought attention to the discrepancy between that analysis and mine. In other words, what you presented initially was not a 'plot issue' which is what I was calling out, unless you wish to make the argument that inciting incidents are plot issues which we can discuss 

I appreciate the last part of your post though, this is something I would be happy to engage with

'Why don't the Imperial officers shoot down the escape pod?' The answer is in the line immediately after, "It must have short-circuited". The Imperials don't believe there's anyone in there and that it was launched because of a malfunction, which is reasonable given the ship is damaged. What's actually particularly impressive is that despite believing it's a malfunction, the officers still make a note that an escape pod was jettisoned with no life-forms and report it to Vader which demonstrates their competence. It's also a good setup to show how Vader is far more cunning than the regular people in the Empire, because with this information he immediately intuits that the Rebels must've hidden the plans in the escape pod

"The AT-AT can only fire in one direction, and the ships fly directly at them instead of flanking them" There's ground support AT-STs so it's not a case of the Rebels being completely safe flying behind them. They don't 'fly directly at them' either, some snowspeeders get shot down when they get within range of the AT-ATs cannons because they're naturally engaging from the front since that's the direction the AT-ATs are marching from, but others maneuver around and execute the tow-cable strategy

"Why does Vader disable the hyper-drive and not the actual engine?" Vader's Super Star Destroyer is waiting for them in orbit, it's a trap so that he can activate the tractor beam and pull them all aboard it. Disabling the engine would be far less subtle, namely because Lando would realize it immediately when he can't even get the Falcon to fly, and it would give an opportunity for the Rebels to find another ship with a working hyperdrive and escape

"Why does the Emperor give the Rebels the actual plans for the Death Star II?" The Emperor does not leak the plans of the DS2 to the Rebels, he leaks the location: "It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator."

This kind of response is what I want from you and others if you think my issues with AOTC are baloney, going point by point and discrediting them with the film itself. I hope this helps explain why I hold AOTC to the standard I do, because the OT is really quite thoughtful when it comes to these small details and I find myself missing that in the Prequels. I think this kind of discourse is great because we're all drawing from the same source, the film, so it's far easier to be on the same page. When people are using head-canon, external sources, or highly personal things such as taste to drive their criticism then it's really hard to have a discussion because of the lack of common ground there. And to be clear, that's not aimed at you specifically Mr. Gitz


I just realized I forgot to reply to this. 
 

Your explanations for the issues with the original trilogy are lacking. 
 

No one said the pilots were “completely safe”. But the movie shows them heading directly in the line of fire of the AT AT’s. That makes no sense given what we see of the battle field. The main danger was the AT AT. Yes they take one out using the toe cable method. But MANY craft were taken out flying directly at them. We aren’t shown anything facing the opposite direction. Heading straight for them makes no sense at all.
 

I’ve always assumed the information of the field generator and the plans of the new Star Wars came from the bothan spies. True the emperor only says he allowed them to know the location of the field generator but I’ve always thought the entire mission debrief was operating on the Bothan information. But let’s say it’s just the field generator. The same problem applies. Why give them actual intel that they can act on?(there is an answer to this I think, but since one of your issues with the prequels is Palpatine and his plan, you wouldn’t accept this answer anymore than you do for the prequels)
 

As for the escape pod. Why take the chance? Just destroy it. life forms or no life forms, you just boarded and attacked the ship to retrieve something that isn’t a life form. Not destroying it and guessing there’s a malfunction just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Especially in a galaxy where droids are a thing.

 

I didn’t even include one of the main issues with the OT which is…Teddy bears and a small squad of rebels defeat an entire legion of the Emperor’s “best troops”? Really? 

 

But let’s forget the original trilogy. Are you willing to concede that the dark side of the force utilizes the force in a different way than the light? And that we as viewers are not privy to how things work so far as sensing the future is concerned? You don’t know how the sensing the future ability works and how Palpatine does it. 

 

You quoted Yoda’s exposition to Luke about the sensing the future. But would you concede that the Emperor and Yoda have fundamental philosophical differences in how the force is used? And that in the end Yoda is proven correct and that is the downfall of the Emperor. 
 


 


 

 

 

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On 03/06/2022 at 10:43 PM, DarthDementous said:

I'm kind of glad the Arena march went unused in Episode 2 because it is really effective heard for the first time with Anakin's march on the Jedi temple, and representing the Clones with the same theme as the 'enemy' was also clever. Good call Lucas/Williams

 

We just watched that scene from Revenge of the Sith yesterday again and I realized only recently that it was unused in AOTC. I guess I was so used to the track from listening to the AOTC soundtrack so much before Revenge of the Sith came out that it just felt not special because it was technically reused music.

 

The same thing happened to me with the Anakin Defeats Sebulba fast string section and Mace Windu starting to fight at the arena. 

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1 hour ago, Mr. Gitz said:

But let’s forget the original trilogy. Are you willing to concede that the dark side of the force utilizes the force in a different way than the light? And that we as viewers are not privy to how things work so far as sensing the future is concerned? You don’t know how the sensing the future ability works and how Palpatine does it. 

 

You quoted Yoda’s exposition to Luke about the sensing the future. But would you concede that the Emperor and Yoda have fundamental philosophical differences in how the force is used? And that in the end Yoda is proven correct and that is the downfall of the Emperor. 


You said 'forget the original trilogy' but I assume you mean in the context of pointing out issues in it, and that it's still on the table to use as evidence for whether something in the Prequels does or doesn't make sense given you're talking events that happen in ROTJ

You're right - we don't know how things work as far as sensing the future is concerned, and that's the entire problem when you decide to structure your plot around complete unknowns like that. If you admit that it's an unknown, then you can't confidently state how it might work just as much as you can't state how it can't work. I would even go as far to say that we don't get an insight at all into how divination within the dark side works, and that's part of my problem because if the intent was that Palpatine had an exceptional clarity of the future then it would've been nice to have seen some clear evidence of that. Clear evidence in the sense that the enemy reacts to something in a way that the movie highlights as being unusual and then links it to Palpatine's power of pre-cognition, like what it does with the Jedi when they have trouble seeing into the future and perceiving the inevitable betrayal that awaits them. Palpatine vaguely saying "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" is really not good enough because he could be talking about literally anything. Granted having Yoda occasionally say that 'the dark side clouds our vision' isn't the most sophisticated approach for that, but it's at least something to draw a connection to

To more directly answer your question though, let's take a look at how the philosophy of the Force is presented in the saga. Yoda in ESB says that the dark side is fueled by 'anger, fear and aggression' whereas the light side is channeled only when 'you are calm, at peace...passive' aka not using it in a directly offensive way. Anakin in ROTS says that "The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inwards - only about themselves...Jedi are selfless" which introduces an element of enacting your will versus serving the will of others. It's important to note that all of these perspectives come from that of the Jedi, the only time we hear the Sith speak about themselves is when Palpatine is talking to Anakin, however he's actively trying to manipulate him so what he says should be taken with a huge grain of salt. If I had only watched the six movies, I really would not have a clue of what it actually means to function as a Sith, fortunately there's expanded media like the Darth Bane trilogy which elucidates exactly that because it's told from the perspective of Sith, and we get to see the Jedi through that lens for a change instead of vice versa. So yes, there are fundamental philosophical differences however they are presented in a very one-sided way in the saga

If we then try and apply that specifically to pre-cognition then it's kind of tricky, because the mere act of seeing into the future is a very neutral ability. It's not necessarily fueled by emotion, nor is it necessarily a selfless or selfish act, and it's not you enacting your will upon something but rather peeking at what the cosmic will is and adjusting yourself accordingly. In that regard it would be more philosophically attuned to the light side as a power since the Jedi are all about going with the flow of the will of the Force, something that can't be done without being privy to that will. So when you say that Yoda is proven correct about the future being difficult to see and connect that to the Emperor not foreseeing Vader's betrayal, it just goes to show that despite established philosophical differences between the Jedi and the Sith, the act of seeing into the future has the same limitations regardless of whether you are Jedi or Sith. Even if you made the argument that during the Prequel era Palpatine or the dark side itself was actively clouding the minds of the Jedi and thus they would have more difficulty than the Sith, that wouldn't apply in the era of the Original Trilogy which is where Yoda declares that the future is difficult to see as "always in motion is the future"

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  • 4 weeks later...

I know this is possibly old hat and there's probably a thread dealing with this very subject somwhere, but can anyone explain to me why Ep II & EP III were full of cut & pasted snippets from EP 1 as well as music actually rehashed and reused from II & III. If you know what I mean. 

        Why was Williams able to write three totally original (?) scores for Eps VII - IX but not the first three? 

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He wrote a complete score for I. George Lucas chopped it up, moved things around, and repeated bits in the final mix. 

 

For II, there are two scenes JW never wrote music for, and GL planned to just track in bits of I's score to cover. Whether this is because the scenes weren't edited in time, JW couldn't fit them in due to his commitments to Minority Report, or a combination of both, we don't know. 

 

For III, basically the same story. Some scenes they just planned to score with old music from the beginning. Whether GL just wanted it that way, or JW had commitments to War of the Worlds, we don't know. 

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Such a shame.

 

Too bad no collaboration with Williams Ross to help out back then.  The Battle of Geonosis is a musical mess.

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2 hours ago, Andy said:

Such a shame.

 

Too bad no collaboration with Williams Ross to help out back then.  The Battle of Geonosis is a musical mess.

Ross couldn't help him because he was scoring Williams' others movie. 

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Oh right how could I forget?

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