artguy360 1,843 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 With one important exception: The Star Wars movies because John Williams Star Wars music is it's own genre. Also, since 1990. John Williams heightens any movie he works on, some say he breathes life into films. He has also worked on some of the most successful and well-regarded movies or all time. But what about the bad movies he scored? What's that list look like? And how did his score impact those movies? Did he knock it out of the ballpark? Did his music heighten the movie? Did he *GASP* write a bad score?! MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corellian2019 386 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 I nominate The Terminal Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,051 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Stepmom. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van_Etten 111 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 The BFG bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Sabrina is pretty dang boring and honestly everything about that movie just feels slightly off, including the score in context. But I adore listening to the OST as its own thing. Not Mr. Big and Bespin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 @StuSabrina is a great score, continue on this path and I'll remove you from my Facebook friends (yes I know, we are not friends on FB). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 I said I adore it... it's the movie that's boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonb 118 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 The terminal isn't a bad film. Just goes on and on . However the score is great. Very enjoyable to listen too. I don't think JW has ever written a bad score! One or two can be a bit boring. Rosewood doesn't do a lot for me yet, but only listened to it a couple of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 7 hours ago, artguy360 said: But what about the bad movies he scored? What's that list look like? Hook (1991) Far and Away (1992) Home Alone 2 Amistad (1997) Stepmom (1998) The Patriot (2000) Attack of the Clones (2002) Memoirs of a Geisha (2005) Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008) The Book Thief (2013) The Rise of Skywalker (2019) ...i couldn't bring myself to strike SW from the list. Chewy and GerateWohl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Fact speaking since 1990... I don't think John Williams ever scored a bad movie at the level of 60s and 70s UFOs like "John Goldfarb, Please Come Home" and "The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing", etc. I think in these cases, John Williams was simply not the best (and sometimes first) choice for scoring these movies, period. After the 80s, following success, Williams had the luxury to say "no" to bad projects. But but but... I agree that, for a reason or another, since 1990, some scores didn’t get the attention they deserved at the time of their release (if I can put it that way). I found three. - Always (1990), who always was a favourite among some fans, especially those working at Disneyland. Williams liked the main theme of this score enough to have re-recorded it for the Spielberg-Williams collaboration albums project. Now, it have a 2nd chance to shine with its recent expansion. - Stanley & Iris (1990), a romantic score for a romantic movie... it's often the perfect recipe for oblivion! The Theme and End Credits made their way to some compilations over the years, but not much... Like Always, the expansion gave this score a 2nd chance to be (re)-discovered, at our greatest satisfaction. - Rosewood (1997), I think this movie had distribution problem, not because it's bad, but because its subject is very hard... anyway I remember I had difficulties to find it on the web to be able to watch it for the first time. However, the theme found its way on the Greatest Hits from 1969-1999 compilation, and it's was well deserved. The 2013 expansion was also welcome. That's all. In all other cases where Williams scored an "ordinary" movie after 1990 (and there are many), his score always was recognized and indeed elevated the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 31 minutes ago, publicist said: Hook (1991) Far and Away (1992) Amistad (1997) Stepmom (1998) The Patriot (2000) Attack of the Clones (2002) Memoirs of a Geisha (2005) Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008) The Adventures of Tintin (2011) The Book Thief (2013) The Rise of Skywalker (2019) ...i couldn't bring myself to strike SW from the list. I would add Home Alone 2 to the list, but remove Tintin. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: I would add Home Alone 2 to the list, but remove Tintin. You are completely right, and i actually like Tintin, so i just forgot to delete it. bruce marshall, Yavar Moradi and eitam 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 58 minutes ago, publicist said: Hook (1991) Far and Away (1992) Home Alone 2 Amistad (1997) Stepmom (1998) The Patriot (2000) Attack of the Clones (2002) Memoirs of a Geisha (2005) Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008) The Book Thief (2013) The Rise of Skywalker (2019) All the movies on this list were commercial successes (although the results of Far and Away were a bit disappointing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Bespin said: All the movies on this list were commercial successes (although the results of Far and Away were a bit disappointing). So were Transformers 1-5 and Date Movie. And still they all are, for different reasons, pretty bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 I know, but your list don't make sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,679 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Attack of the Clones and KotCS would be my top two. I think the score elevated some scenes in the latter, but the former... no. I think AotC is a mostly boring score for (and caused by) a terrible film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,490 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 There are a number of films with issues, but not an outright bad one within that time frame, IMO. I find qualities in all of the films he's scored since 1990. But I suppose I could list some of the ones with 'issues' of various kinds: FAR & AWAY, INDY 4, THE BOOK THIEF, THE BFG, STAR WARS 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, Bespin said: I know, but your list don't make sense! It absolutely does, if your frame of reference for bad movies goes beyond Ed-Wood-style incompetence. Some of them i just reject for ideological reasons, i. e. The Patriot or the casual 'they all look alike' racism of the polished coffee table book that is 'Memoirs'. aviazn and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,514 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 The only film I tried to watch and couldn't even finish was JFK, made it maybe 10 minutes in. The ones I hated/thought were bad were JP:TLW, AotC, RotS and TROS. 9 minutes ago, publicist said: or the casual 'they all look alike' racism of the polished coffee table book that is 'Memoirs'. I don't necessarily disagree about the casual racism aspect but why doesn't anyone bitch about english, scottish, welsh, irish, australian, american, hell, danish, swedish, german, whatever people all playing each other? Isn't it a different kind of racism, "we big good whites can deal with it, but we gotta protect these poor weak others"? Anyway, IMO it's not enough of a reason to write the entire thing off as bad. Them all speaking English and what the script devolves into by the end are better ones. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2022 32 minutes ago, Holko said: I don't necessarily disagree about the casual racism aspect but why doesn't anyone bitch about english, scottish, welsh, irish, australian, american, hell, danish, swedish, german, whatever people all playing each other? Isn't it a different kind of racism, "we big good whites can deal with it, but we gotta protect these poor weak others"? I think it runs much deeper than that, asians are notoriously stereotyped in Hollywood movies since the dawn of film beyond lumping together ethnically different people. The standard refrain to these stereotyping complaints is the usual 'they're overreacting', which is as patronizing and ignorant in this case as it is for any marginalized group, but i know from hearing first-hand from asian colleagues that western people just don't understand/don't want to understand how offensive certain cultural slurs are to them. Marian Schedenig, aviazn, mrbellamy and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 If Tom Cruise can play an Irish Thug in a movie (or a tall vampire in another one), why can't a chinese actress play a japanese woman? I'm not really in that cancel culture movement which commands it absolutely needs a gay actor to portray a gay man in a movie. These false debates tries to kill Art. But Art is Art and don't follow any rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Like i said, this is not really the issue, it's just cherry-picking of the obvious social warrior bigotries. Stereotyping and casual racism in movies are a complex and delicate affair, a dance involving race, artistic license, gender, and ethics vs. profit. That most will dismiss it out of hand is just license to do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post enderdrag64 624 Posted May 21, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2022 39 minutes ago, Holko said: I don't necessarily disagree about the casual racism aspect but why doesn't anyone bitch about english, scottish, welsh, irish, australian, american, hell, danish, swedish, german, whatever people all playing each other? Isn't it a different kind of racism, "we big good whites can deal with it, but we gotta protect these poor weak others"? Anyway, IMO it's not enough of a reason to write the entire thing off as bad. Them all speaking English and what the script devolves into by the end are better ones. I think it's a little more nuanced than that in this particular case due to the nature of the film and its connection to past Japanese/Chinese conflict. The Wikipedia page on it has a nice summary of the concerns people had publicist, Yavar Moradi and aviazn 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,275 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 5 hours ago, publicist said: Hook (1991) Far and Away (1992) Home Alone 2 Amistad (1997) Stepmom (1998) The Patriot (2000) Attack of the Clones (2002) Memoirs of a Geisha (2005) Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008) The Book Thief (2013) The Rise of Skywalker (2019) ...i couldn't bring myself to strike SW from the list. Fair list, never got around to Far and Away, Stepmom, or The Book Thief though. Hook and Home Alone 2, I saw them young enough to still be able to grade them on a curve. Spielberg's worst movies as a group, I can't totally dismiss outright. I don't really go less than 5/10 with him. Angela's Ashes would be near the bottom of this era for me tbh. I watched Rosewood in the last year and actually was somewhat impressed. Not a great movie but has stuff going for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, mrbellamy said: Angela's Ashes would be near the bottom of this era for me tbh. I saw that but don't remember anything about it. Though i like Williams' modal, Vaughan-Williams-tinged score on it's own, i felt he completely missed the point and atmosphere of the story. Seen through the eyes of a child, which is what AA is all about, being all adagio and elegiac just doesn't cut it. The choice of the piano as lead solo for a story about the poor, an instrument culturally attached to the higher social strata and elegant drawing rooms, confirms a certain detachment on JW's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,051 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 25 minutes ago, publicist said: The choice of the piano as lead solo for a story about the poor, an instrument culturally attached to the higher social strata and elegant drawing rooms, confirms a certain detachment on JW's part. So you'd prefer a cheap triangle instead. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Or the fart thing Morricone employed in 'March of the Beggars' from 'Duck You Sucker'. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliandra 90 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Never mind. Delete this post. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliandra 90 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 . Disco Stu and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Thor said: There are a number of films with issues, but not an outright bad one within that time frame, IMO. I find qualities in all of the films he's scored since 1990. But I suppose I could list some of the ones with 'issues' of various kinds: FAR & AWAY, INDY 4, THE BOOK THIEF, THE BFG, STAR WARS 9. The Rise of Skywalker has issues? I doubt that Williams scored a worse movie in his whole career. Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,051 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: The Rise of Skywalker has issues? Is it good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,275 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, Aliandra said: A ton of kiddie-pop and family entertainment is usually not what I consider to be "good". Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,051 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 8 hours ago, Stu said: Sabrina is pretty dang boring I dare you to say that to her face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 re: TROS…after TFA, I don’t know how JW actually sat down and spent his time working out timings and sync points…hours of work a day… to footage he knew would be changing daily up until the release date. Exhausting. 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: Is it good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,051 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, mrbellamy said: For a long while I've been wondering: Does George Lucas have struma? Does George Lucas use a wig? That's all, thanks. 1 minute ago, MikeH said: I don’t know how JW actually sat down and spent his time working out timings and sync points…hours of work a day… to footage he knew would be changing daily up until the release date. Exhausting. His work ethics is simply too good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 47 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Is it good? This movie is an issue. At least one. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,424 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 As much as I love the score for The Patriot (and crave its C&C edition), I still think the movie is quite terrible. Anyway, JW's music at least make the movie slightly less awful. On the other hand, not even JW himself could save the abomination called Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, as much as he tried. enderdrag64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 20 hours ago, Corellian2019 said: I nominate The Terminal.... ....and BFG! 4 hours ago, Edmilson said: As much as I love the score for The Patriot (and crave its C&C edition), I still think the movie is quite terrible. Anyway, JW's music at least make the movie slightly less awful. On the other hand, not even JW himself could save the abomination called Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, as much as he tried. Man, you just can't stop bashing SKULL, can you?😒 Its almost like a vendetta! But, I agree THE PATRIOT is terrible 6 hours ago, GerateWohl said: The Rise of Skywalker has issues? I doubt that Williams scored a worse movie in his whole career. It's worse than ROTJ and TPM?!😳 6 hours ago, MikeH said: THE BFG...why Steven? WHY?!!!!!!##😵 .....and Tintin! Why, I ask you !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,650 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 I nominate AI. The flim is choppy, borderline incoherent, and dumb (in the sense of thinking it has some grand message, but in fact does not--at least one that hadn't been done--and done better--by 50 sci-fi tv episodes prior). However, the score is superb, so much so that it really brings out the patheticness of the movie. Ohhhhh, Rouge City...give me a break. All of this IMHO, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,315 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 Man, that Williams guy has sure scored alot of crap. Kinda like that Goldberg... er.. Goldsmith guy# Bayesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 663 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 Of the film's Williams scored from 1990 I haven't seen Stanley and Iris, Presumed Innocent, JFK, Nixon, Rosewood, Seven Years in Tibet, Memoirs of a Geisha and The Book Thief, so can't comment on the quality of them. For some of the others the biggest problem with them is they're just fine, not completely bad but not really good either. So if it's just the film's we're talking about, the top 5 mediocre for me would be Sleepers Stepmom Angela's Ashes Lincoln Amistad Not sure that Williams has ever done a bad score, his work always seems to be exactly what the film needs, just sometimes (especially in the case of the prequel/sequel trilogy's) the film itself isn't able to meet the quality of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted May 22, 2022 Author Share Posted May 22, 2022 Sleepers isn't a bad film, but it does have one of my least favorite JW dramatic scores. When I watch the movie, I can't help but feel that his sound is just the wrong fit for the movie. It was one of the only times I can recall where I heard a JW score for the first time with the film and immediately felt like the music didn't fit the film. I haven't listened to the music outside of the film enough to have a deeper opinion of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 663 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 38 minutes ago, artguy360 said: Sleepers isn't a bad film, but it does have one of my least favorite JW dramatic scores. When I watch the movie, I can't help but feel that his sound is just the wrong fit for the movie. It was one of the only times I can recall where I heard a JW score for the first time with the film and immediately felt like the music didn't fit the film. I haven't listened to the music outside of the film enough to have a deeper opinion of it. I like the score for Sleepers just fine, hhhmm maybe it's not so much the film isn't able to live up to the score, but as you said Williams was a wrong fit for it. What would your list look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 5 hours ago, bruce marshall said: It's worse than ROTJ and TPM?!😳 Yes! 5 hours ago, bruce marshall said: ....and BFG! BFG was quite ok as a kids movie. Only issue I had with it was the inconsistency. The fart humor is funny for five or six year old kids, but the part with the nightmares and the children eating giants is too scary for those. But I enjoyed the visuals and 3D effects in the cinema a lot. And I like the music. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 16 hours ago, Bespin said: I'm not really in that cancel culture movement which commands it absolutely needs a gay actor to portray a gay man in a movie. I actually enjoy when gay or bi or lesbian actors play gay or bi or lesbian characters, as a lesbian. It's just not 100% mandatory in all cases. 14 hours ago, GerateWohl said: The Rise of Skywalker has issues? I doubt that Williams scored a worse movie in his whole career. i also don't consider the force awakens good either. and the middle one tries but sandwiched like that well that's going to suck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,424 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 12 hours ago, bruce marshall said: Man, you just can't stop bashing SKULL, can you?😒 Its almost like a vendetta! Well, this is a thread about bad movies JW scored, so its inclusion here is warranted. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 I made an effort to list three "ordinary" (I never said bad) movies, JW didn't really could save with his score. It has been extremely rare since the 1990s. I found objectively only three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 21/05/2022 at 2:20 PM, publicist said: Hook (1991) Far and Away (1992) Home Alone 2 Amistad (1997) Stepmom (1998) The Patriot (2000) Attack of the Clones (2002) Memoirs of a Geisha (2005) Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008) The Book Thief (2013) The Rise of Skywalker (2019) ...i couldn't bring myself to strike SW from the list. Why Amistad? It is one of Spielberg's best, despite his usual stylistic exaggeration. Take Rosewood instead, that was a clichéd and racist garbage movie. Besides I don't think that The Patriot lives up to the promise of its title and director (which is of course a good thing). Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 Seven Years in Tibet is a pretty awful film, which is doubly unfortunate, as the book it is based on is quite fascinating and the score, on album, is one of my all time favorites. But the film, not only is totally dramatically inert and has an horrendous lead performance, it also treats its terrific score very badly, with hardly any chances to shine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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