Jump to content

Obi-Wan Theme debuts at Star Wars Celebration, conducted by John Williams


Jay
 Share

Recommended Posts

@Fabulin I really don't think JW would be so on-the-nose as to quote/homage it directly. 

I think it's just a very similar type of sound resulting from the common musical blueprints used for a noble/heroic-type themes (not in the big brash fanfare vein): dotted martial rhythms, yearning leaps (the m6 in both), which can be preceded by downtrodden stepwise descents, and, of course, solo horn 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, ConorPower said:

@Fabulin I really don't think JW would be so on-the-nose as to quote/homage it directly. 

I think it's just a very similar type of sound resulting from the common musical blueprints used for "heroic" and/or "noble" themes: dotted martial rhythms, yearning leaps (the m6 in both), which can be preceded by downtrodden stepwise descents, and, of course, solo horn 

In theory, any degree of similarity to anything can be plausibly denied like that (and has been, especially on this forum). Analyse a motif, point out why it works, and there you go, it is somehow absolved by its own mechanical description.

 

Thus far he described his connection to Wagner, IIRC, as "If there are similarities, then it is not because I put them there". So the musicologist perspective is "obliged" to take it at face value. But does that extend to works composed after the statements had been made?

 

My comment was exactly about the idea that this time it is different, and why could that be. That's all.

 

Edit: What wouldn't be "on the nose"? A retrograde inversion at a completely different tempo?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

Thus far he described his connection to Wagner, IIRC, as "If there are similarities, then it is not because I put them there". So the musicologist perspective is "obliged" to take it at face value. But does that extend to works composed after the statements had been made?

 

I see, that's a fair point to consider actually! I misread your original post. 

I recall that quote too. Interesting to consider if these types Qs in interview have eventually and inadvertently caused the Wagnerian similarities to emerge, whether consciously or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok right now the problem is we have:

 

1)Alternate and mediocre performance (adapted with worse orchestrations?) of the show's End Credits in studio sound quality

2)Magnificent performance of the "original piece" conducted by John Williams in cell phone quality.

 

Unless Williams further modified it since he recorded it a while back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

My thought stems from a the one about a more general trend how years of being publically compared to the classics by friends and strangers alike might have affected JW.

 

If so, he should have started playing the guitar years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

He is said to have wanted to write a theme for Obi-Wan, because he had never written one ;) This just seems like a perfect opportunity (now or never) to have that one deliberate homage to Wagner, too.

 

Or not :) 

 

Maybe it is only my mind in which all that has been planted :lol:

That's a splendid overview of his relationship to the "old masters", which would also be an appropriate Coda to his (presumably) last entry into the Star Wars tapestry. This is my headcanon now! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, ConorPower said:

That's a splendid overview of his relationship to the "old masters", which would also be an appropriate Coda to his (presumably) last entry into the Star Wars tapestry. This is my headcanon now! 

 

Cue @Mattris.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Fabulin said:

 This just seems like a perfect opportunity (now or never) to have that one deliberate homage to Wagner, too.

 

I really don't hear a Wagnerian sound here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think, the Williams piece is good, It is not his best Star Wars theme, but for his own level it is rather mediocre.

But obviously, even though he layed the mark probably as low as he could it is still the best music in the show.

Apart from that, the show gives a canvas for much more quotes of classical star wars themes.

I am not sure, why Holt diesn't use more of the classical Star Wars references like Leia's theme, the force theme, Luke's theme. Maybe it is a contractual thing or maybe we would have been better off with Williams new theme and Kevin Kiner merging it into his usual Clone Wars thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

But obviously, even though he layed the mark probably as low as he could it is still the best music in the show.

 

Ouch! I agree it's good although not close to his best, but that's harsh! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Alex said:

The first notes reminded me of John Paesano’s Spider-Man theme.

I thought this as well.  Probably because I've been playing the game for the first time this year and that Spider-Man theme plays every time you swing around the city so, you hear it A LOT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first 3 notes remembers me of this... of that. :sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

 

Classical (or Serious) music is about more than a succesion of notes, it's about contrast, repetition, continuity, well, a structure.  And there are a dozen of different known structures (the canon, the sonata form, the theme and variation one, just to name a few).

 

Pick three notes in a specific score and a computer will find 72,000 other partitions of previously written music having also these three notes in that same exact order.

 

Music is more complex than that.

 

Anyway, those comments makes me laugh because they show you don't have any musical knowledge, a bit of memory at most! :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Ouch! I agree it's good although not close to his best, but that's harsh! 

You are right. That sounds worse than I meant it. I mean, it is still a pretty good piece and appropriate for the show, but just quite unspectacular for such a spectacular character. On the other hand is one subject of the show, that the character is not as spectacular as it used to be. Therefore it fits. But in a ranking of Williams' Star Wars Theme I see it in the lower third (which is still great and brillant compared to anything, I heard in The Mandalorian or BOBF).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Tom said:

I think the theme itself, the melody, is quite brilliant.  It manages to capture the lonely melancholy, as Holt notes, but it also manages to easily be used as an action/adventure heroic theme.  Luke's theme has heroic optimism, Benny's has a worldworn heroic feel.  

I agree. Feel some similarity to Unicorn theme in Tintin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About the structure, and after ony two listenings, I found JW's new Obi-Wan Kenobi Theme to be in total continuity with the music he wrote for the last trilogy, particularly with the new themes he developped for The Force Awakens.

 

That's gold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not offended.

 

You are right, actually we are talking about a Theme and some variations, JW did'nt write a WHOLE symphony! :lol:

 

Natalie Holt will be in charge of writing the Symphony.  ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

I am not sure, why Holt diesn't use more of the classical Star Wars references like Leia's theme, the force theme, Luke's theme. Maybe it is a contractual thing or maybe we would have been better off with Williams new theme and Kevin Kiner merging it into his usual Clone Wars thing.

I suspect, like Göransson, Holt will hold off on using Williams's motifs, and savour them for weighty scenes. It might give them more dramatic weight if we don't hear them that often. I'd rather hear her own interpretations of the SW world.

Calling that when Ben uses his lightsaber first, or at a similar 'big' moment, then we'll get the force theme.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

I think I'll be shot down here but to me this new theme is passable at best. In fact it's in the same mediocre league as his music for Solo and Galaxy's Edge. I can't believe how almost everyone here is waxing lyrical like they've seen the second coming of Christ or something. Even Williams' music for (the doggerell that was) Episode IX wasn't his best. I also can't understand how this 4 minute piece can be compared to the vast orchestral frescoes of the gas giants Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner & Korngold (or even Schonberg in Gurrelieder). Sorry if I offend anyone here. 

      

 

I find it more interesting than Galaxy's Edge but less interesting than the Adventures of Han.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I find it more interesting than Galaxy's Edge but less interesting than the Adventures of Han.

This.

 

The theme starts off pretty well. For me the weak part is the more dramatic one in the middle with the string ostinato, sounds like kind of Across the Stars imitation, but not as good. But I guess its purpose of this part is to give Holt something for more dramatic scenes at hand. Anyway. I am quite sure it might grow on me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Anyway, those comments makes me laugh because they show you don't have any musical knowledge, a bit of memory at most! :P

First, my comment wasn't meant to be negative, just an observation.  I really like this new theme and I happen to like the music from the Spider-man game.

 

I didn't realize I was required to have "musical knowledge" to be a fan of movie scores.  I love this site for all the musical knowledgeable and information but, I rarely post because some are just not very welcoming to those of us with little knowledge/experience.  My dad introduced me to movie scores at a young age through the original Superman 2 LP.  I've been a fan ever since and this is the main genre of music I collect and listen too but, I never learned to read music or play an instrument (expect snare drum in my high school marching band).  So, I apologize for my lack of knowledge and mentioning how this theme reminded me of something else.  I will now go back to rarely posting again.

 

Why do so many score/classical fan sites expect the "true" fans to have a deep understanding of the music and music theory?  We don't expect that for fans of pop, rap, country, rock ,etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still really like it a lot after a ton of listens! And I really want to here a proper studio version of the suite he played. There are a lot of little details to it you can hardly hear in the distance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

I think I'll be shot down here but to me this new theme is passable at best. In fact it's in the same mediocre league as his music for Solo and Galaxy's Edge. I can't believe how almost everyone here is waxing lyrical like they've seen the second coming of Christ or something. Even Williams' music for (the doggerell that was) Episode IX wasn't his best. I also can't understand how this 4 minute piece can be compared to the vast orchestral frescoes of the gas giants Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner & Korngold (or even Schonberg in Gurrelieder). Sorry if I offend anyone here. 

      

 

I can totally see where you're coming from and deep down I always hope whenever we get a new theme that it is written with the sensibilities he had decades ago, however - after a few listens I think this piece is quite perfect in capturing what it needs to do while kind of fitting in with what film music is today, and so I think this will speak to a big audience. I'm really impressed by the fact he can adapt his style so wel to current trends while still sounding like himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, rolltide1017 said:

Why do so many score/classical fan sites expect the "true" fans to have a deep understanding of the music and music theory?  We don't expect that for fans of pop, rap, country, rock ,etc.

There are fans of looking at bridges and then there are fans of the engineering of bridges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, rolltide1017 said:

First, my comment wasn't meant to be negative, just an observation.  I really like this new theme and I happen to like the music from the Spider-man game.

 

I didn't realize I was required to have "musical knowledge" to be a fan of movie scores.  I love this site for all the musical knowledgeable and information but, I rarely post because some are just not very welcoming to those of us with little knowledge/experience.  My dad introduced me to movie scores at a young age through the original Superman 2 LP.  I've been a fan ever since and this is the main genre of music I collect and listen too but, I never learned to read music or play an instrument (expect snare drum in my high school marching band).  So, I apologize for my lack of knowledge and mentioning how this theme reminded me of something else.  I will now go back to rarely posting again.

 

Why do so many score/classical fan sites expect the "true" fans to have a deep understanding of the music and music theory?  We don't expect that for fans of pop, rap, country, rock ,etc.

 

My comment was not against you specifically, I'm sorry. :blush:

 

I'm not a music theory expert, I'm just an old grumpy fan.

 

Please keep posting! :up:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, stravinsky said:

I think I'll be shot down here but to me this new theme is passable at best. In fact it's in the same mediocre league as his music for Solo and Galaxy's Edge. I can't believe how almost everyone here is waxing lyrical like they've seen the second coming of Christ or something. Even Williams' music for (the doggerell that was) Episode IX wasn't his best. I also can't understand how this 4 minute piece can be compared to the vast orchestral frescoes of the gas giants Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner & Korngold (or even Schonberg in Gurrelieder). Sorry if I offend anyone here. 

      

 

Solo mediocre league, Igor?  And not offended here by mediocre league posts. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, stravinsky said:

I think I'll be shot down here but to me this new theme is passable at best. In fact it's in the same mediocre league as his music for Solo and Galaxy's Edge. I can't believe how almost everyone here is waxing lyrical like they've seen the second coming of Christ or something. Even Williams' music for (the doggerell that was) Episode IX wasn't his best. I also can't understand how this 4 minute piece can be compared to the vast orchestral frescoes of the gas giants Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner & Korngold (or even Schonberg in Gurrelieder). Sorry if I offend anyone here. 

      

The comparison to other composers is perfectly legitmate.  Obviously, a 4 minute piece and an hour symphony have relevant dissimiliaries, but they also have plenty of relevant simililarities--the latter are a reasonable basis for comparison, and that is what people are doing.

 

Also, when listening to a new SW theme, there are two things I am doing.  One, is the theme and suite good on its own musical merits.  Two, and just as importantly for me, how does the theme fit into JW SW world.  We now have literally 2-3 hours of SW thematic, concert material.  Obi-Wan's theme fits nicely, sharing some structural features, but also original to the canon.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

 

I am not sure, why Holt diesn't use more of the classical Star Wars references like Leia's theme, the force theme, Luke's theme. Maybe it is a contractual thing or maybe we would have been better off with Williams new theme and Kevin Kiner merging it into his usual Clone Wars thing.


it drives me nuts that the newer shoes intentionally avoid traditional themes, particularly the force theme. I like different styles and all of that, but there are times where a statement of a traditional them not only makes sense but is essential to keep me feeling like I am in this universe as a viewer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Sergeant said:

 

Solo mediocre league, Igor?  And not offended here by mediocre league posts. 

I'm not referring to Powell's tremendous score as mediocre. Not in any way. Only Williams kind of flaccid theme. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I finally had chance to listen to the better quality version and well.... I am not  impressed.  This is on a level of Galaxy's Edge which I find to be one of the weakest SW music cues. I was awaiting a theme that will be close to Force theme, strong melody, melancholic, dramatic, with some nice gradation. I do not fid it here. Not that Adventures of Han was so great but it still was quite exciting action piece with some memorable parts, here even after 5 listens, I am not getting the "vibe" or something memorable from it and this is something I am not used to with JW themes. I am bit sad.  Hymn to the Oscars was a proof that he still can do this exciting 80/90s kind of stuff but this theme is for me not the case. 


BTW, Is it me or the orchestration is especially weak here - I think it could be done way better. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Demondm810 said:

Yeah, I think the entire end credits are adapted. 

 

10 hours ago, King Mark said:

it sounds nowhere like the Williams conducted one

I think it sounds adapted for a TV series-sized orchestra, that's all. But, as is frequently the case these days, I prefer the faster tempo to JW's live performance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, handz said:

BTW, Is it me or the orchestration is especially weak here - I think it could be done way better. 

 

I thought the same thing in the middle where the piece temporarily fizzles out - it could have been more interesting with a bit more elaborate orchestration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the concert arrangement and the end credits version about equally. I do hope we get a better quality version of the concert arrangement released soon!

 

As for the end credits version, though, I like the soft ending! Beautiful and sounds like classic Williams. I wonder if that's an addition from Ross or Williams himself. Either way, perfect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

I'm not referring to Powell's tremendous score as mediocre. Not in any way. Only Williams kind of flaccid theme. 

 

Flaccid theme? I think it was a highlight in Berlin concert. Powell' score is a joke, can't listen to that generic shit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I saw Kathleen Kennedy on the live stream yesterday, I think she really didn't find the joke about getting his room number very funny.

 

How did the joke go?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.