What are your thoughts on John Williams' new theme for Obi-Wan?

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Why is there a gazillion threads for this piece?

[Steve 589]

15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Why is there a gazillion threads for this piece?

Why are there a gazillion posts from you in every thread? 🤔

[BB-8 3,461]

"A Gathering of Threads"

[TownerFan 4,983]

9 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Agreed, and it's a perspective that also disregards the fact that JW is the best at what he does because he's able to write staggeringly high quality music in a short amount of time. You don't get into film scoring if you're a slow writer, or you'd never get a gig. He famously completed Empire Strikes Back in less than two months if memory serves (others here will be able to correct that); and that was over 100 minutes of directly scored music (i.e. synced to the action of the film), as opposed to a four-minute theme and variation like we get here. Williams could write these kinds of suites in a day if he had to, but knowing that it was two weeks means that he probably gave it more thought than the majority of our favourite movie themes.

 

Only a note to say that the 2-weeks window is something told by Natalie Holt during an interview and not something said by JW himself. No need to question it of course, but she didn't collaborate directly with John for this project. JW had to interrupt work on The Fabelmans for doing this and sessions for that were already booked at Sony, so they had to work the schedule around that. Also, the 2-week window very possibly included not just writing, but also reviewing footage, taking notes, set timings with the music editor etc. Part of that job was assigned to Bill Ross because the schedule was tight and it was virtually impossible for JW to do all by himself as usual (why Ross was assigned to do that and not Holt, I honestly don't know).

 

As for the fact he can churn out a suite like this in a day, well, as much as he's still a fast writer, he's not 45 anymore, so he definitely needs a bit more time even for shorter pieces. It's not a mechanical process.

 

9 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

The more I study Williams and his scores the more I realise that so much of my favourite music of his is a happy accident, more a result of his creative problem-solving than some kind of tortured and inspired writing process. Take Prisoner of Azkaban for example, which is a revelation to me. If you listen to the score now you'd be forgiven for thinking that his "Window to the Past" theme was one of the first ideas he came up with. But following the trail of breadcrumbs it's more likely that it was a last-minute addition that was retroactively applied to the rest of the score; the vast majority of scenes it appears in had very different music initially, including the infamous "Remembering Mother" cue. It's likely he had already recorded a lot of the music before writing that theme and incorporating it into the fabric of the score.

 

Writing film scores is always a problem-solving process. Sometimes the key to unlock the film's needs might come early on, other times arrives at the last minute available. As for the fact JW found the right theme late in the process in cases like Azkaban or Force Awakens, it might be because of how the writing schedule was for those projects. I think he didn't see a completed cut, but he had to start writing nonetheless because he had other deadlines looming. He said many times he prefers to see a completed cut because that way he knows where the music is leading to so he can deconstruct the musical material etc, but with the current methodology of doing films, this is now virtually impossible to do, so you need to start writing with whatever footage is available to score, keeping in mind that stuff is constantly reviewed and changed throughout the process, hence the music needs to change as well.

[crocodile 7,984]

It must be a terribly frustrating for musicians to work in Hollywood these days. So many notes and points of reference, short deadlines and lack if any sort of structure. No wonder nothing seems to have any narrative spine or direction. It's a miracle anything works at all.

 

Karol

[GerateWohl 4,336]

Still you can clearly hear that this Obi-Wan theme and suite is the resulted of a creative process and inspired in a way that really adds value to Williams' body of work for Star Wars.

Not just counting "Williams said, He writes two minutes of music per day, so He must have been done in two days with the suite."

 

Anyway, it is so astoninshing, others might have thought "This score (Star Wars) is one in a million. I will never be as good as this again. So, for further installments I better repeat myself."

 

But Williams? "You want another Star Wars Theme? I give you another Star Wars Theme."

 

Unbelievable.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

You talkin' about Star Wars themes? You talkin' about Star Wars themes? You talkin' about Star Wars themes? Then what the hell else are you talkin' about? You talkin' about Star Wars themes? Well, it's the only one here. 

[GerateWohl 4,336]

Is that a song?

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

That's a good idea! It can be the lyrics for the next composition competition.

[BB-8 3,461]

Look what may happen if Bill Ross wasn't commissioned.

 

 

[Darth Mulder 153]

27 minutes ago, BB-8 said:

Look what may happen if Bill Ross wasn't commissioned.

 

 

 

I changed my mind. This theme is brilliant...but rock arrangement of NFL theme is still better. 

[Bespin 8,480]

I see the same substantive conversation occuring on several threads by the moment.

 

My message his globally this one.

 

When a composer, an artist wants to present a new work, he’s like a kid who wants to show off his new toys he got for Christmas Eve.

 

But this is not always expected by the public. The public wants to hear the earlier stuff, thinking hmmmm... last time’s works were better!

 

At his age and with all his wisdom, John Williams knows that public opinion sometimes changes, often even, so he doesn’t worry at all...

 

Just be kind and watch what you are writing on this forum... By example, try to write what you would actually be able to say in the real life.

 

To who it might concern, thanks.

[Drew 590]

I realized something. In JW’s final Star Wars composition, he is bowing down to the forces of evil in the industry by acknowledging that woodwinds are bad. The Obi-Wan theme is all strings, brass, and percussion. Woodwinds are only in the background. It also contains more ostinati than usual. This theme is, in a way, a perverted passing of the torch. Not a bad theme at least.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

12 minutes ago, Drew said:

Woodwinds are only in the background.

 

They often are.

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 269]

On 30/05/2022 at 7:06 AM, TownerFan said:

 

Only a note to say that the 2-weeks window is something told by Natalie Holt during an interview and not something said by JW himself. No need to question it of course, but she didn't collaborate directly with John for this project. JW had to interrupt work on The Fabelmans for doing this and sessions for that were already booked at Sony, so they had to work the schedule around that. Also, the 2-week window very possibly included not just writing, but also reviewing footage, taking notes, set timings with the music editor etc. Part of that job was assigned to Bill Ross because the schedule was tight and it was virtually impossible for JW to do all by himself as usual (why Ross was assigned to do that and not Holt, I honestly don't know).

 

As for the fact he can churn out a suite like this in a day, well, as much as he's still a fast writer, he's not 45 anymore, so he definitely needs a bit more time even for shorter pieces. It's not a mechanical process.

 

 

Writing film scores is always a problem-solving process. Sometimes the key to unlock the film's needs might come early on, other times arrives at the last minute available. As for the fact JW found the right theme late in the process in cases like Azkaban or Force Awakens, it might be because of how the writing schedule was for those projects. I think he didn't see a completed cut, but he had to start writing nonetheless because he had other deadlines looming. He said many times he prefers to see a completed cut because that way he knows where the music is leading to so he can deconstruct the musical material etc, but with the current methodology of doing films, this is now virtually impossible to do, so you need to start writing with whatever footage is available to score, keeping in mind that stuff is constantly reviewed and changed throughout the process, hence the music needs to change as well.

Holy shit, you could've fooled me if you told me he found the main themes for Prisoner of Azakban and The Force Awakens early. Rey's Theme is my favorite piece of music like ever. Had no idea that didn't come to him on a whim.

[Andy 4,083]

I remember hearing Rey’s Theme for the first time watching TFA, and I almost cried tears of joy, because it seemed so rare to hear a theme like that, mixed so prominently in the storytelling, and fitting the character like a glove. 

[Darth Mulder 153]

On 30/05/2022 at 1:06 PM, TownerFan said:

 

 

You know so much about the Maestro. Maybe...TOO much. Who are you? 

[Jay 37,287]

He's this guy: https://thelegacyofjohnwilliams.com/

[artguy360 1,843]

Having listened to it more, my thoughts haven't changed. It's a good piece representing Obi Wan at this stage in his life. But it is a slight theme. The piece doesn't have a great structure or exciting variations. It feels pretty by-the-numbers for JW. A minor SW theme to add to his canon.

[Jay 37,287]

I listened to the live performance, the single, and then the End Credits version on my way to work this morning.

Well, I like the theme a lot!  It's poignant, fun, and catchy.  I really like the ostinato part.

The end credits version might be my favorite of the 3 options.  Looking forward to hearing the OST album to hear more Ross arrangements of it

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I like the turbulent ostinato in the middle of the piece.  It reminds me of the interludes in classic 2000s JW pieces (Across the Stars, Fawkes the Phoenix, Window to the Past)

[Jay 37,287]

Ooh, turbulent, that's a good word for it!

[BB-8 3,461]

44 minutes ago, Jay said:

I listened to the live performance, the single, and then the End Credits version on my way to work this morning.

Well, I like the theme a lot!  It's poignant, fun, and catchy.  I really like the ostinato part.

The end credits version might be my favorite of the 3 options.  Looking forward to hearing the OST album to hear more Ross arrangements of it

 

"the OST album" !?

[Jay 37,287]

Well yea, what, did you think this show wouldn't get one?

[BB-8 3,461]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Well yea, what, did you think this show wouldn't get one?

 

I was thinking along the lines of a proper physical album - something long-lasting for the annals.

 

Not just "Benny's Theme" in the cloud.

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Most new film music of the 2020s will not be released on physical CD

[Bespin 8,480]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I love this piece very much. That opening french horn solo by that glorious lady. So many little details in the chords and orchestration, pure Williams. 2020 has started so great by this composer that it might surpass his best decade 2010. What an artist.

[Fabulin 3,510]

They work excellently in the end credits, the combination of the theme and the ostinato. Not only do they keep the tension running after the end of an episode, as good TV music often does, but one has the feeling, at least there at the end of an episode, that one has watched something with a Williams score. Carpe diem, this is one of the last times anyone will feel that towards a contemporary production.

[Tom 4,639]

9 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I like the turbulent ostinato in the middle of the piece.  It reminds me of the interludes in classic 2000s JW pieces (Across the Stars, Fawkes the Phoenix, Window to the Past)

Nixon's revenge.  

[Jay 37,287]

1 hour ago, Fabulin said:

They work excellently in the end credits, the combination of the theme and the ostinato. Not only do they keep the tension running after the end of an episode, as good TV music often does, but one has the feeling, at least there at the end of an episode, that one has watched something with a Williams score. Carpe diem, this is one of the last times anyone will feel that towards a contemporary production.

 

Yes! 

[Rimsky 6]

Is it just me or is the obi-theme a mix of Bruckner’s 4th (that even starts with string tremolo and a horn solo…) and Siegfried’s theme by Wagner?

 

I am personally not a big fan of the Obi-theme. It seems empty to me somehow. 

Themes like f.x. Leia, Force and Yoda has some kind of inner narrative and direction in my ears while themes like Obis and Rey’s seem cold and directionless to me.

 

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

I think it's interesting to note that for me my favorite implementations of the Han Solo theme were in the movie itself, whereas here it's a case of nothing topping how it's treated in the original suite, even compared to the main title and end credits of the show

It helps that I really enjoy how it's mixed in that single release, Adventures of Han was incredibly dry and had all the audio qualities I wasn't fond of in the Sequel scores and it ended up having an overall thin sound to it

[BB-8 3,461]

3 hours ago, Rimsky said:

Is it just me or is the obi-theme a mix of Bruckner’s 4th (that even starts with string tremolo and a horn solo…) and Siegfried’s theme by Wagner?

 

I am personally not a big fan of the Obi-theme. It seems empty to me somehow. 

Themes like f.x. Leia, Force and Yoda has some kind of inner narrative and direction in my ears while themes like Obis and Rey’s seem cold and directionless to me.

 

 

You're not alone with this Bruckner association (see previous posts).

 

I wonder when JW (or rather Bill Ross) will discover the Wagner tuba?

 

 

 

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 269]

On 31/05/2022 at 9:56 PM, Andy said:

I remember hearing Rey’s Theme for the first time watching TFA, and I almost cried tears of joy, because it seemed so rare to hear a theme like that, mixed so prominently in the storytelling, and fitting the character like a glove. 

Someone finally gets it! I had to wait an extra week to see the movie, so I bought the physical soundtrack the day it came out. I listened to all the tracks in order, but when I got to Rey's Theme, I fell in love. I listened to it exactly 800 times from that day to the day I saw the movie. It's not only my favorite piece of music by John Williams or for a film, it's my favorite piece of music of all-time.

[GerateWohl 4,336]

20 hours ago, Rimsky said:

I am personally not a big fan of the Obi-theme. It seems empty to me somehow. 

Themes like f.x. Leia, Force and Yoda has some kind of inner narrative and direction in my ears while themes like Obis and Rey’s seem cold and directionless to me.

Obi's theme and Rey's theme are perfect and appropriate for the media that they were written for. I don't think, that this emptiness is really a musical issue after all.

Same for the other themes you mentioned. These themes are impacted by our positive Star Wars experiences. They are good. But their emotional impact highly depends on the movies, they were written for.

[Score 770]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

These themes are impacted by our positive Star Wars experiences. They are good. But their emotional impact highly depends on the movies, they were written for.

 

This does not apply to every listener. Personally, I judge a piece of film music on its own merits independently of the movie. That's why, for example, I like very much pieces like Anakin's theme, Duel of the Fates and Across the Stars (they have a positive "emotional impact" on me), while I dislike the movies they were written for. In the same spirit, I see a significant difference between the Obi-Wan theme and those written for SW 1-6. It has nothing to do with me seeing and/or liking or not the movies themselves.  

[Andy 4,083]

That's almost impossible for me.  Even if the overall movie isn't 100% great, actor performance, cinematography, editing and all the craft associated with the music complimenting the film and the film scaffolding the music can affect my response to the music, and vice versa.  I can't completely wash off one or the other to isolate it without association.

 

Good thing I like Star Wars.

[GerateWohl 4,336]

2 hours ago, Score said:

 

This does not apply to every listener. Personally, I judge a piece of film music on its own merits independently of the movie. That's why, for example, I like very much pieces like Anakin's theme, Duel of the Fates and Across the Stars (they have a positive "emotional impact" on me), while I dislike the movies they were written for. In the same spirit, I see a significant difference between the Obi-Wan theme and those written for SW 1-6. It has nothing to do with me seeing and/or liking or not the movies themselves.  

If you recept Star Wars music pieces completely independent from their subject, why are you then even comparing them with another and not compare them to completely different unrelated pieces of music?

The only valid answer her is, that you include that relation into your reception and assessment of that music. And that is what I was referring to.

[Score 770]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

If you recept Star Wars music pieces completely independent from their subject, why are you then even comparing them with another and not compare them to completely different unrelated pieces of music?

The only valid answer her is, that you include that relation into your reception and assessment of that music. And that is what I was referring to.

 

I meant that my assessment of the *quality* of a piece of music is independent of the movie. If a music piece has great harmony and melody and the movie is unwatchable, I will still say that the piece of music is great. Of course the SW themes belong to the same body of work, and thus they can be compared. However, that "their emotional impact highly depends on the movies they are written for" does not hold in my case, at all.

 

[Rimsky 6]

12 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Obi's theme and Rey's theme are perfect and appropriate for the media that they were written for. I don't think, that this emptiness is really a musical issue after all.

Same for the other themes you mentioned. These themes are impacted by our positive Star Wars experiences. They are good. But their emotional impact highly depends on the movies, they were written for.

I have no love or warm nostalgic feelings for Jar-Jar Binks or anything related to that character, but I still think that Jar-Jar’s music is genius to an almost Prokofiev-like level.

 

I know most things concerning art typically are relative, subjective and so on and so forth, but I am of the firm belief that JW’s themes and motives from episode 1-6 objectively are greater, more inspired and more interesting than the themes from 7-9 and the Obi-theme - in the same way that Mozart’s material is better than Dittersdorf’s or that the motives from Wagner’s Tristan are greater than the ones from Das Liebesverbot…
 

And I don’t blame JW - who on earth could be inspired by episode 7-9…

[igger6 894]

That's an interesting conversation.  I think it's totally aesthetically possible and kind of fun to rank themes and motifs that way, but the fact that your ranking happens to coincide with the eras of the movies makes me suspicious (in a playful, sake-of-argument sort of way).

 

Here's how I'd rank them:

 

V—not the first, but the most important

IV—the one that started it all

I—amazing slate of new, melodic themes

VII—a stunning anchor in "Rey," plus a strong second string of motifs

VI—A solid array, but the weakest of the original trilogy.  Old themes crowd out new ones.

IX—Three solid new melodic entries, plus a few decent motifs

II—One amazing theme, but little else stands out. (Quick! Hum the arena march!)  This is what VII would have been if "Resistance," Kylo, and "Steps" weren't so good.

III—"BotH" is nice, but too close to Cinque's Theme to anchor a SW score.

VIII—One decent melody for a minor character, half a theme for a place, a "Cantina Band" equivalent, and a lot of lackluster action-related half-gestures that sound like prior Williams pieces

[Courtney Sees Ghosts 269]

4 hours ago, igger6 said:

That's an interesting conversation.  I think it's totally aesthetically possible and kind of fun to rank themes and motifs that way, but the fact that your ranking happens to coincide with the eras of the movies makes me suspicious (in a playful, sake-of-argument sort of way).

 

Here's how I'd rank them:

 

V—not the first, but the most important

IV—the one that started it all

I—amazing slate of new, melodic themes

VII—a stunning anchor in "Rey," plus a strong second string of motifs

VI—A solid array, but the weakest of the original trilogy.  Old themes crowd out new ones.

IX—Three solid new melodic entries, plus a few decent motifs

II—One amazing theme, but little else stands out. (Quick! Hum the arena march!)  This is what VII would have been if "Resistance," Kylo, and "Steps" weren't so good.

III—"BotH" is nice, but too close to Cinque's Theme to anchor a SW score.

VIII—One decent melody for a minor character, half a theme for a place, a "Cantina Band" equivalent, and a lot of lackluster action-related half-gestures that sound like prior Williams pieces

You're lying to yourself if you think The Battle of Crait isn't one of the greatest action cues Williams has ever made. That's a masterclass in action scoring fr.

[igger6 894]

Greatest?  Meh.  Some great theme statements and some interesting momentary musical moves, but it has the ROTJ problem: its best moments are developments of themes from TFA, and halfway through it throws up its hands and goes into "Tie Fighter Attack."

 

Also, as much as I love Rose's Theme, it struggles to keep up with the rest of the action in this cue.  Every time it plays, it's like everyone on the battlefield puts down their blasters for a quick, romantic hot air balloon ride.

 

As long as I'm airing suspicions, I have to acknowledge that some element of this surely stems from my distaste for TLJ broadly, but I'm confident my ranking stands up on musical terms as well.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Haven't seen the show, but just listened to JW's suite again, several days since the last time, and it's definitely growing on me. I initially thought it was good; now I think it's quite good.

[Score 770]

8 hours ago, igger6 said:

That's an interesting conversation.  I think it's totally aesthetically possible and kind of fun to rank themes and motifs that way, but the fact that your ranking happens to coincide with the eras of the movies makes me suspicious (in a playful, sake-of-argument sort of way).

 

 

I'll answer, since I also consider JW's work for the first two trilogies superior to his work for the third trilogy. It's not really suspicious if you take into account that the movies for which the scores were written are separated by decades, and in the mean time JW has both grown older and changed his style. It's no coincidence that Superman and E.T. are stylistically much closer to the original SW trilogy than the last SW trilogy is, as they were written in the same years. 

 

It's totally possible to compare JW's works, taken as pieces of music independent of their movies, with other musical works written by other composers and for different media. In this regard, I believe JW absolutely deserves to be included in the list of the great composers (not just "movie composers") of all time, the list that includes people like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and so on. I even consider him superior to several of the great "classical" (in the broad sense) composers. This does not mean that every single 5-minute piece of his output is a masterpiece, or that everything he wrote is at the same level.

 

 

By the way, just to play the game, here is my ranking of the SW scores:

 

V and IV (more or less equivalent, although different), I, VI, III (the last reel is amazing), II, VII, IX, VIII 

 

[michael_grig 464]

watching clone wars right now and heard that XD (15:27) nice coincidence :) (s6/e11 01:12)

lol it also appears in this episode (s6 e11) at timestamp 4:21 and in other spots

 

the qui-gon theme has so much in common with obi-wan's theme

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 hour ago, Score said:

as pieces of music independent of their movies

 

I think that's a little bit trickier to do given the kind of idiom those scores are written in: Williams wrote something like Rey's theme with the intention that when we should hear it, we should remember Rey and what she's going through over the course of the movies. That's the whole purpose of the leitmotif technique: the make the music and drama inseparable.

[Score 770]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I think that's a little bit trickier to do given the kind of idiom those scores are written in: Williams wrote something like Rey's theme with the intention that when we should hear it, we should remember Rey and what she's going through over the course of the movies. That's the whole purpose of the leitmotif technique: the make the music and drama inseparable.

 

I do not agree that a leitmotif-based music and the corresponding drama are inseparable, in general. You can definitely evaluate and enjoy (or not) a piece of music in itself, with respect to its musical qualities (harmony, melody, instrumentation, rhythm, structure...). Another question, which is what you are referring to, is how a piece of music written to accompany a film (or opera) scene relates to the feelings, the scenario and the story portrayed by that scene. This is another point, which is of course important in film music, but has little to do with the intrinsic musical qualities of the piece of music. In other words, the result can be enjoyed independently of the inspiration. In 1999, when I was much younger but already a musician, I listened to the soundtrack of Ep. 1 before seeing the movie and I could definitely say that pieces like Anakin's theme, Duel of the Fates and, for example, the Qui-Gon funeral scene, were very well written and beautiful pieces of music, even if I knew nothing about the story (well, except for the mega-spoiler about Qui-Gon's death in the track titles  ). Now that I know that story, and I don't like it / don't care about it, I still say that the score to Ep. 1 is great, because its musical qualities are independent of the story (fortunately). 

 

[Lord Montague 42]

On 02/06/2022 at 10:30 AM, Rimsky said:

Is it just me or is the obi-theme a mix of Bruckner’s 4th (that even starts with string tremolo and a horn solo…) and Siegfried’s theme by Wagner?

 

I am personally not a big fan of the Obi-theme. It seems empty to me somehow. 

Themes like f.x. Leia, Force and Yoda has some kind of inner narrative and direction in my ears while themes like Obis and Rey’s seem cold and directionless to me.

 

Siegfried Theme, which inspired the Force Theme, which inspired this theme, fitting to Obi-Wan's role in the tale, Bruckner orchestration, a bit of all of that it sounds to me.