James Horner's WILLOW (1988) - NEW! 2022 2-CD Intrada Records

[Yavar Moradi 2,576]

I knew! But maybe it wasn’t widely discussed?

 

Yavar

[Jay 37,267]

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Man!

I've never seen a score so thoroughly disected- before it even gets listened to!😄

 

[Jay 37,267]

Anybody know what the main theme is doing on the 1992 CD called "Gentle Rocks" by "Incantation"?

 

https://music.apple.com/us/album/on-gentle-rocks/308341383

 

(Listen to the sample of track 7 "Find The Child")

 

Another sample here: https://www.cancioneros.com/lyrics/disc/610009/on-gentle-rocks-incantation

[mstrox 6,637]

Incantation was a group including frequent Horner collaborator Tony Hinnigan.

 

http://www.tonyhinnigan.com/incantation.php

 

http://tonyhinnigan.com/movies.php#movies

 

 

[Jay 37,267]

I guess the inside of the CD booklet would have credited Horner as composer then

That's one of the issues with the digital/streaming era, all those details have nowhere to be presented!

[bruce marshall 1,314]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

I guess the inside of the CD booklet would have credited Horner as composer then

That's one of the issues with the digital/streaming era, all those details have nowhere to be presented!

Yup.

CDs forever!

[mstrox 6,637]

He was credited, at least according to somebody here.

http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/omni-publishings-stunning-release-of-horners-willow/

 

 

I like this story from that Hinnigan guy’s website!

 

Quote

James Horner had heard the score for "The Mission" and asked Mike Taylor and myself to play on "Willow", which had, at the time, the biggest ever music budget for a movie. On the first morning we began with a cue containing a nightmare solo in the heinous key of B Major. (For the uninitiated, that means a rather uncomfortable number of sharps). We only had one instrument between us on which it could be done - a somewhat dodgy cross-blown Bolivian flute. We tossed a coin for the dubious honour. Mike lost. The first run-through, predictably, didn't go that well. Audible sniggers were heard from members of the London Symphony Orchestra. James, to his eternal credit, tapped his baton on the stand and said "Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a 120-piece orchestra here, two choirs, Alpine horns, anvils etc., etc., and these chaps with numerous bits of stick, some of which have holes bored in them. I have written the cue in the wrong key and that's my fault. If anyone thinks they can play any of these instruments better, please step forward". You could've heard a pin drop. 

P.S. The rest of the sessions went fine(!).

 

[Jay 37,267]

yea that's a good story, I saw it when it was posted into the FSM thread for this release a couple days ago

[Yavar Moradi 2,576]

Another Incantation CD is the only way some of Horner’s rejected Young Guns score has been released to (and heard by) the public — almost 5 minutes of it and it’s pretty good stuff:

 

[Jay 37,267]

Interesting!

[Andy 4,071]

8 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I suppose bavmordas slap is not on the level of arriving to daedalus…

Are you kidding?  My heart hurts for poor Kael. A Bavmorda slap is no ordinary bitch-slap. 

[jacksparrow900 32]

5 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

I didn't want to go to bed without posting this first:

 

 

2:11-2:30 was cut in the film; that's what I'd found in the screenshot I posted above.  I realize now that the screenshot didn't have enough contextual information to be useful; it's late for me and I haven't gone to bed yet.  Really not the time for me to try to figure out a new film score.

 

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion. 

At 3:40 it's missing the solo flute that can be heard in the film but not present on the album

[Bespin 8,472]

If this missing insert is confirmed, I can confirm you Intrada has a big big big QA problem...

 

Glad I didn’t order it yet, this prove my new rule of waiting one month before ordering a new expansion is necessary.

[bruckhorn 105]

The available material may not include that insert.

 

The full set of maters is missing and presumed lost to the ages.

[Amer 2,078]

Ha. I'm sure in a few years Intrada will have unearthed the main recording sessions from Lucasfilm and then reissue with all the missing unreleased bits and cues and alternate takes as a 3CD Set with the OST.

 

But right now this release is going to be epic!! We will have enough music to enjoy in the interim period. 

[Andy 4,071]

53 minutes ago, Bespin said:

If this missing insert is confirmed, I can confirm you Intrada has a big big big QA problem...

 

Glad I didn’t order it yet, this prove my new rule of waiting one month before ordering a new expansion is necessary.

If they send out a replacement disc, then you have two copies. Isn’t that better for your collection?

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,429]

9 hours ago, Andy said:

Are you kidding?  My heart hurts for poor Kael. A Bavmorda slap is no ordinary bitch-slap. 

He should have keep his wife's name out of his f****ng mouth!

[Richard Penna 3,665]

6 hours ago, Bespin said:

If this missing insert is confirmed, I can confirm you Intrada has a big big big QA problem...

 

Glad I didn’t order it yet, this prove my new rule of waiting one month before ordering a new expansion is necessary.

 

Even without this specific issue of missing masters, it's not at all unusual for the masters and the film to differ in mixing, often considerably.

 

And since when did everyone care about it matching the film anyway? I thought JWFan was a 'composer's intention' haven  

 

Also, if they'd had proper elements and done a 4-disc set with alternates and the original album, yet more complaints would arise that they'd overdone it and didn't need to provide an entire track for a 5 second insert....

[Jim Ware 525]

8 hours ago, Amer said:

Ha. I'm sure in a few years Intrada will have unearthed the main recording sessions from Lucasfilm and then reissue with all the missinf unreleased bits and cues and alternate takes as a 3CD Set with the OST.

It's a LOT of physical tape to go missing; they may yet turn up in deep storage somewhere. Although recorded on a long obsolete format, other Horner scores recorded in the same way have been recovered and restored (such as Glory).

 

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Even without this specific issue of missing masters, it's not at all unusual for the masters and the film to differ in mixing, often considerably.

Exactly, and when recording with Tony Hinnigan and Incantation Horner would often record multiple takes with different approaches (often a necessity given the unpredictable nature of the instruments). It's not unusual to find a different version on the album versus the film.

[crocodile 7,978]

I am not massively bothered about minor differences like this. To be perfectly honest, I am still struggling to hear the difference between the two The Land Before Time opening tracks that caused such a stir not long ago. Sure, I do appreciate throughness of any assembly but as far as casual listening goes this is completely irrelevant. I am excited to hear the extra 35 minutes on this release. This is a huge title, this one. It has been a tough couple of years, let's try to focus on the positives.

 

Karol

[Bespin 8,472]

I don't know why, I assumed the program of the double CD would have been made of a "Score" portion and a bonus "Album" portion (like we are now used to get).

 

Instead of this, I realize Intrada chose to go with a continuous "score/album" mixed program.

 

As it has been said, a compromise was clearly made to avoid a 3rd CD.

 

So this is not the Definitive Willow, but it's better than nothing I guess.

 

Still I think Intrada could have had more balls.

[Demondm810 398]

Hard to imagine a 1988 movie from Lucasfilm would have truly lost the original elements.  I'm sure they'll turn up.  And if not, this release seems incredible as is. It's out for delivery!

[Richard Penna 3,665]

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

So this is not the Definitive Willow, but it's better than nothing.

 

Intrada could have had more balls.

 

JWFanners. Obsessively finding the negatives in everything since <insert year>

 

[Bespin 8,472]

Intrada lives because of ME. I send them big money each year, can I expect some quality? I think so.

 

I think the right order to expand a score is to release first the "big thing" (3 or 4-CD), then when it's sold out, some years later you can reissue a 2-CD set removing the alt and bonus tracks.

 

I think it's the correct way to do it, not the inverse.

 

You know, everytime a label stretch the elastic, we see it.

 

I have this message for the speciality labels: BEVARE! BEVAAAAARE! 

[Chewy 2,372]

But...what if the masters are truly lost? Intrada can't do much more.

[ThePenitentMan1 741]

1 hour ago, Chewy said:

But...what if the masters are truly lost? Intrada can't do much more.

This.  What makes me think even more that this is the case is the fact that they were so upfront about the missing material.  

[Amer 2,078]

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

Intrada lives because of ME. I send them big money each year, can I expect some quality? I think so.

 

I think the right order to expand a score is to release first the big thing (3 or 4-CD), then when it's sold out, some years later you can reissue a 2-CD set removing the alt and bonus tracks.

 

I think it's the correct way to do it, not the inverse.

 

You know, everytime a label stretch the elastic, we see it. I have this message to the speciality labels: BEEVARE! BEEVAAAAARE! 

Strangely, I agree. 'Like LLL did with the ST TMP 3CD Set...

[Bespin 8,472]

[Bounty95 557]

Unless there are several significantly different and musically interesting alternates buried in some vaults, the 2-CD set will contain everything I need. I can't wait to listen to it! 

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Based on the state of currently available sources, this is as close to Definitive as we're likely to get.

 

There is very little actually missing, and there is a LOT of material we did not have before.

 

From the samples on the site, this is going to be a fantastic listen.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Looking at it closely.. this is a Williams styled expansion: most of the source music is absent. One uninteresting short cue ommited and album tracks retained by the composer's wish....

[OneBuckFilms 319]

7 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Looking at it closely.. this is a Williams styled expansion: most of the source music is absent. One uninteresting short cue ommited and album tracks retained by the composer's wish....

 

Somewhat. Since the original master tapes are lost, the album tracks used seem to be the only good source left to use.

 

It's a shame about the master tapes, especially for a film and score like this.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

5 hours ago, crocodile said:

I am not massively bothered about minor differences like this. To be perfectly honest, I am still struggling to hear the difference between the two The Land Before Time opening tracks that caused such a stir not long ago. Sure, I do appreciate throughness of any assembly but as far as casual listening goes this is completely irrelevant. I am excited to hear the extra 35 minutes on this release. This is a huge title, this one. It has been a tough couple of years, let's try to focus on the positives.

 

Karol

I was kidding when I said ya’ll would find something to complain about with this release, sweet jiminy christmas. 

[bruce marshall 1,314]

4 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

JWFanners. Obsessively finding the negatives in everything since <insert year>

 

If I wrote that , Jay would have chastised me.

Thanks!😄

[1977 1,743]

19 hours ago, Andy said:

Are you kidding?  My heart hurts for poor Kael. A Bavmorda slap is no ordinary bitch-slap. 

 

I seem to remember it being more of a punch than a slap. Need to check the film out again sometime.

[Jay 37,267]

(TEMPORARILY OUT OF STOCK)
We will post estimates of when this title will be back in stock as soon as we know!

 

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.12619/.f

 

 

They've also added the musician's link at that page

 

WILLOW • MUSICIANS ROSTER
LONDON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA

Engineer: Shawn Murphy
25-28 Jan, 2,3,5,6,9&12 Feb 1988
Abbey Road Studio 1
led by Ashley Arbuckle

FIRST VIOLIN
Arbuckle, Ashley
Brightman, Robin
Broadbent, Nigel Lister
Clark, Robert
Colter, Sydney
Findlay, Gillian Anne Helen
Gaines, Dennis
Goodall, David
Humphrey, Michael
Mackenzie, James Lennox
Nixon, Joyce
Renwick, Colin John
Retallick, Robert Henry
Reuben, Cyril
Snell, Dominie Juliet
Spencer, Michael John

SECOND VIOLIN
Artis, Samuel
Brown, William Paton
Castle, Stanley           
Clarke, Norman John
Creese, Geoffrey
Hill, Warwick Collen
McDonough, Ian Robert
Morton, (Paul) Terence
Pollock, Andrew
Rowlinson, Stephen
Swift, Thomas
Thomas, M.
Watson, Neil A.
Williams, David

VIOLA
Burns, Duff
Clarke, Brian
Forrester, J.
Holttum, Richard John
Hooley, M.
Hooley, Patrick
Hume, David
Mack, Brian
Mountfort, L.
Norris, Peter
O'Neill, Caroline
Sumpton, William
Taylor, Alexander
Vermont, Patrick
Welch, Jonathan C.

CELLO
Adams, Raymond
Bergin, Mary Patricia
Bradshaw, Noel
Brown, Jennifer Mary
Cole, Joanne
Cummings, Douglas
Gethin, Nicholas G. F.
Jones, Hilary Susan
Law, Kenneth
McGrath, Roderick John
Saunders, Francis Patrick
Truelove, Amanda

BASS
Cooper, John
Eyres, Ian
Griffiths, Arthur B
Hetherington, Simon Edward
Hill, John
Laurence, Patrick Aynsley
Marrion, Paul
Mollison, Bruce
Newson, Gerald Keith
Worters, Nicholas A. C.

FLUTE
Edmund-Davies, Paul
Nolan, Francis Joseph
Parry, (Godfrey David) Martin

OBOE
Browne, Geoffrey
Carter, Roy
Lawley, John William
Pendrill, Christine Ann

CLARINET
Jowitt, Roy
Kelly, Thomas
Marriner, Andrew S.
Moore, Ronald
Stenhouse, John

BASSOON
Bourton, Robert John
Francis, Peter John
Gatt, James Martin
Hunka, Michael Nicholas

FRENCH HORN
Brown, James
Clarke, R.
Haskins, William Paul
Lipton, Jonathan
Reading, S.
Seenan, Hugh

TRUMPET
Hall, Malcolm
Murphy, Maurice
Reynolds, George
Smith, Malcolm

TROMBONE
Crees, Eric James
Groves, Roger
Harvey, Peter Brian
Mathison, Frank
Wick, Denis
Wills, Simon

TUBA
Harrild, Patrick Terence

TIMPANI
Goedicke, Kurt-Hans

PERCUSSION
Allen, E.
Frye, Michael
Northcott, Raymond Stanley
Nutty, Kevin
Thomas, Chris
Wardle, S.

HARP
Ellis, Osian
Vaughan, Moira Karen

PIANO
Elms, R.
Leech, J.
Noble, Robert
Round, Michael

[BrotherSound 2,241]

It’s here!

 

[Amer 2,078]

Thank my stars. I just got my shipping notice!!!! 

[Drawgoon 100]

4 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

It’s here!

 

haha You current avatar, with that "peculiar" look on JW, kind of goes well with your post. It's almost like JW is looking at that artwork in complete disbelief (i.e. Dost mine eyes deceive me? Expanded Willow? It can't be real!)

[bruckhorn 105]

5 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

It’s here!

 

And, your impressions?

 

The liner notes: did they choose a good font, or is that another nit that some of us here will bitch about incessantly?

[Amer 2,078]

I thought that the full red artwork was going to be the front cover..but I still like this one from the original poster sheet.

From the musician list : Legendary Maurice Murphy on the Trumpet.  One of the great ace players from LSO.

[1977 1,743]

8 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

It’s here!

 

 

Nice worktop! 

[mahler3 478]

Here’s our very own @Jim Warewho joined me on the show last night. French horn player Hugh Seenan is also speaking with me about his work with James Horner (from  Aliens to Braveheart). Lots of further Willow clips too!

 

https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/d7vhqV4aB9RQQ9s79

 

[OneBuckFilms 319]

There are some amazing things in this. It's AMAZING to hear Horner talking with the orchestra on the Troy sessions.

[BrotherSound 2,241]

20 hours ago, bruckhorn said:

And, your impressions?

It’s a fantastic release! I’ve had the Omni Publications full score (sadly out-of-print now) for a long time and have been dying to follow along, which I can finally do.

 

I personally would have moved the two source cues out of the “main program”, but that’s accomplished easily enough with a playlist. It’s worth the purchase for ‘The Slide Ride’ alone. ‘Death Dogs’ is another unreleased highlight.

[Andy 4,071]

I am ripping my CD now.

 

The liner notes have a theme of how big and complex the orchestra is, and the variety of bizarre instruments.  It's really a wonderful read, and in the context of today's modern scores with their programmed drum loops, you have to admire the ambition of Horner, who is both a genius and a hack at the same time.  (Although I don't think Horner used a Nose Flute for Willow! Point for Holt.)

 

My question...  Since the liner notes made such special mention of the players in the orchestra, why are they not listed in the booklet?  This is the LSO!  Seems like it should be in the booklet.  And why are all of the strange and unconventional instruments and players not listed on Intrada's online player listing?  

[Faleel 5,326]

16 minutes ago, Andy said:

 

My question...  Since the liner notes made such special mention of the players in the orchestra, why are they not listed in the booklet?  This is the LSO!  Seems like it should be in the booklet.  And why are all of the strange and unconventional instruments and players not listed on Intrada's online player listing?  

Is it not in the CD case?

[Smeltington 1,436]

1 hour ago, Andy said:

you have to admire the ambition of Horner, who is both a genius and a hack at the same time

 

Haha... I'd be interested to hear you elaborate on that.

[Andy 4,071]

3 hours ago, Counterparts said:

Is it not in the CD case?

 

No.  I was surprised it isn't.

 

2 hours ago, Smeltington said:

 

Haha... I'd be interested to hear you elaborate on that.

 

Well, I'm not really sure what's left to be said about Horner, and it's only my opinion, but he was a hack because of how shamelessly he borrowed from others and himself.  (nothing new there). He was a genius because of how he made it not matter.  He was so courageous with how he scored.  He had a way of putting it out there and swinging for the fences, without shame, without restraint.  And most of the time, it worked perfectly for the film, and the emotions of the listener.  So while he drew his inspiration in ways that weren't original, he somehow created an original "Horner" sound.  You know his scores when you hear them, and he really didn't seem to care if you noticed his cyclical quoting or not.  Right up until the end, you could hear bits of Star Trek II in The Amazing Spider-Man.  And we loved him anyways.  The guy had balls, and talent, but I think he was able to craft a sound that resonated with most audiences.  And that's why he was a genius.  Because there are plenty of composers who use temp tracks, or quote ideas from others, but none of them come out as endearing and surprisingly emotive as Horner.  I'm having a tough time articulating it, and that's precisely what I mean... He was able to reuse and recycle and yet come up with something indescribable, compelling, and often critic-proof.

 

Is there a nuanced James Horner score?  I don't really think so.  

 

Was Willow the only Lucasfilm project he ever scored?