James Horner's WILLOW (1988) - NEW! 2022 2-CD Intrada Records

[Edmilson 7,426]

4 hours ago, Andy said:

you have to admire the ambition of Horner, who is a genius.

Fixed 

[Faleel 5,345]

30 minutes ago, Andy said:

 

 

 

Was Willow the only Lucasfilm project he ever scored?

Captain EO?

[Andy 4,118]

Ah of course!

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

And Land Before Time….

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

Pretty sure that was Amblin, not Lucasfilm.

 

Yavar

[Faleel 5,345]

8 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Pretty sure that was Amblin, not Lucasfilm.

 

Yavar

I have seen online:

 

"Lucasfilm (uncredited)"

 

"The Land Before Time is a 1988 animated drama adventure film produced by Steven Spielberg's Amblin Entertaiment and Lucasfilm, released by Universal Studios "

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

I remember seeing it mentioned in lucasfilm site chronology a while back.

 

the link is here, but no longer works

 

http://www.lucasfilm.com/films/other/land.html

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

Why did they crop madmartigan's hair out of the front cover? The entire poster would have fit (they could have cropped the red mist below if necessary...)

 

 

 

Is "Willow's theme" a recorded cue, or it is an edit of the end credits? I listened to it today...and the different sections were very noticeable... :/

[Jay 37,337]

2 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Is "Willow's theme" a recorded cue, or it is an edit of the end credits? I listened to it today...and the different sections were very noticeable... :/

 

On 29/06/2022 at 2:27 PM, Jay said:

I just figured out that "Willow's Theme" is not just extremely similar to the end credits - it's literally just an edit of the end credits!!

 

OST 6 Willow's Theme

• 0:00-2:44 = OST 8 Willow The Sorcerer 7:33-10:16
• 2:44-2:45 = OST 8 Willow The Sorcerer 7:33-7:34 again
• 2:45-3:08 = OST 8 Willow The Sorcerer 8:15-8:38 again
• 3:08-end = OST 8 Willow The Sorcerer 10:42-11:27

 

How about that!  In all these years, I had no idea!!

 

So all along, the OST album only had 69 minutes of original score over 7 tracks, with 4 minutes of repeated material combined to make an 8th track.  Who knew?

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

Ok, thanks!

 

really the two newlin tracks are too long (repetition) the best part is in the finale that i think mixxes parts from both.

 

i would trade one minute from each for the tavern source… 🙃

[Jay 37,337]

On 02/07/2022 at 1:36 PM, Andy said:

Since the liner notes made such special mention of the players in the orchestra, why are they not listed in the booklet?  This is the LSO!  Seems like it should be in the booklet.  

 

I know for the AFM, the labels are required to post the player's list either in the booklet or on their website. I've seen both LLL and Intrada put them on their site instead of the booklet. 

 

Maybe the LSO works the same way. 

 

On 02/07/2022 at 1:36 PM, Andy said:

And why are all of the strange and unconventional instruments and players not listed on Intrada's online player listing?  

 

I know for AFM scores, the labels have to display what the AFM sent them without changes. A project I worked on recently included ochestrators in the list that I'd never heard of and aren't even on IMDB. But you just have to assume it's right. 

 

So maybe this is the official list in the LSO's eyes. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

A project I worked on recently included ochestrators in the list that I'd never heard of and aren't even on IMDB. But you just have to assume it's right. 

Goood, goooood!  

[Edmilson 7,426]

Jay at the recording sessions for The Fabelmans confirmed! When will we get the selfies with JW?

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

On 29/06/2022 at 7:52 PM, Bespin said:

If this missing insert is confirmed, I can confirm you Intrada has a big big big QA problem...

 

Glad I didn’t order it yet, this prove my new rule of waiting one month before ordering a new expansion is necessary.

 

I very much doubt this is something that Intrada will (or can) "fix" for you, so you're going to be waiting an awfully long time. QA problem? They utilized all the elements they had. The complete session masters were gone, and they only had Horner's chosen takes for each cue. That included everything on the original album, as it appeared on the original album, plus the 30+ minutes of new music which apparently Horner was considering creating an extended program with.

 

Not everything people like you think is a mistake...is a mistake. Horner chose not to have that insert on the original album, and that's why it isn't on this one.

 

Yavar

[TownerFan 4,983]

On 02/07/2022 at 7:36 PM, Andy said:

My question...  Since the liner notes made such special mention of the players in the orchestra, why are they not listed in the booklet?  This is the LSO!  Seems like it should be in the booklet.  And why are all of the strange and unconventional instruments and players not listed on Intrada's online player listing?  

 

The list was provided by the LSO archivist thanks to Tim Burden and in their record they have the actual members of the orchestra who played on those sessions. All the ethnic instrumentalists and synth programmers were not LSO players, but freelance musicians handpicked by Horner himself (Hinnigan & Taylor of Incantation on ethnic winds, Kazu Matsui on shakuhachi, Ian Underwood on synths) and hence credited as soloists in the booklet.

 

10 hours ago, Jay said:

I know for AFM scores, the labels have to display what the AFM sent them without changes. A project I worked on recently included ochestrators in the list that I'd never heard of and aren't even on IMDB. But you just have to assume it's right.

 

There are musicians who swear to remember to have played on scores despite not being listed in the actual AFM records. There are gaps and inaccuracies in their archives as well, I guess.

[publicist 4,643]

5 hours ago, TownerFan said:

There are musicians who swear to remember to have played on scores despite not being listed in the actual AFM records. There are gaps and inaccuracies in their archives as well, I guess.

 

There was at least one LA musician who swore to have played on a rejected Speed score by Jerry Goldsmith, which we know never happened. Maybe he confused it with something, maybe Jerry *did* a demo at some point (i highly doubt it), but i wouldn't believe everything on someone's word, either.

[Edmilson 7,426]

I think I'll make a poll: who wrote the best source music for a tribe of cutesy characters in an 80s fantasy movie? John Williams with the Ewok Celebration from Return of the Jedi or Horner and his Nelwyn music from Willow?

[crocodile 7,999]

Does Goldsmith's Sing the Wee from Legend count as well?

 

Karol

[TownerFan 4,983]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

There was at least one LA musician who swore to have played on a rejected Speed score by Jerry Goldsmith, which we know never happened. Maybe he confused it with something, maybe Jerry *did* a demo at some point (i highly doubt it), but i wouldn't believe everything on someone's word, either.

 

Oh, sure thing, especially those musicians who were literally playing in dozens of sessions for film, tv, record dates etc. within the same week. A lot of their memories can be faulty as well.

[Edmilson 7,426]

12 hours ago, crocodile said:

Does Goldsmith's Sing the Wee from Legend count as well?

 

Karol

Sure, it does fit in.

[crocodile 7,999]

Ooh out for delivery. I might pick it up from post office tonight should things go well.

 

Karol

[Andy 4,118]

Man, I dig the Nelwyns cues.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I like them too, but I must admit that I moved them to the end of the program as bonus tracks.

[Holko 9,516]

So, on first try I didn't like the OST that much, wasn't even interested to continue with the final 15 minutes after I had to stop for a while.

 

I gave the expansion a sample listen and liked it more! The new tracks and order vary it more, The Enchanted Forest and The Island especially, as well as Death Dogs early on. Would have loved more of these, unfortunately Sled Ride was kind of more of the same as the tracks after it. Generally my problem was that I didn't get that much of a strong narrative from it, all over I was waiting for developments or kickass Krull-like statements and variants of the adventure theme or Willow's theme but they barely showed up amidst nonthematic (excuse this word but) "filler" action barrage - I almost forgot about the latter one before the credits until it showed up somewhere in the giant track I think. I skipped the source cues, they're too much of the same and repetitive, one after another especially and weird to be placed right there as the second and third track stopping the program dead.

 

Still don't feel like I will buy this but I'm closer to listening again a few months or years down the line and it growing on me enough.

[Amer 2,095]

Does the sound quality show a significant improvement?- although I always though the OST album was well rounded soundwise.

[Frank Vincent 234]

24 minutes ago, Amer said:

Does the sound quality show a significant improvement?- although I always though the OST album was well rounded soundwise.

 

It seems to me that the previously released tracks sound the same, but the new tracks sound a little more detailed and louder.

[Bespin 8,480]

I just removed Willow from my cart on ScreenArchive, I made the decision to let this limited edition run out. Then I'll get the 2nd edition, even if it takes 5 years to get one.

 

Go lemmings, fall into the trap, it’ll be without me.

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, FrankV said:

 

It seems to me that the previously released tracks sound the same, but the new tracks sound a little more detailed and louder.

 

No, they have the same profile and sound more detailed/crisp, with better separation of the instruments. It's not a 180 degree change, but it's clearly noticeable.

[crocodile 7,999]

 

Karol

[crocodile 7,999]

Haven't heard it yet but read the booklet while ripping the CDs. Very good liner notes, discussing Horner’s intrumentation his "musical history" reference approach, and theme development. Really enjoyed that.

 

I really like the cover artwork, much better than the original.

 

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

I haven't seen this mentioned it here nor in FSM forums...but i can't believe people dont hear it as how nitpicky are (we all) sometimes.

 

The track "Sled ride" has i think some pitch-speed issues, specially more noticeable at the 6:28 mark to end. This segment is partially present on the samples on the web site... I didnt' notice it at first but now everytime i hear the score i hear it more, i feel it is almost unlistenable.

 

Is this a mastering error? it does not comply with the description "mastered from original digital stereo mixes made by Shawn Murphy at the scoring sessions and beautifully preserved by engineer Simon Rhodes"

 

Can this be manually corrected like the Temple of doom tracks from the concord set?

 

[crocodile 7,999]

The score in its entirety, or at least in the form presented here, is absolutely magnificent. It flows so so well, you don't really need a film to experience the world and the story set within it. It feels almost like a 2-hour concert piece. It has everything - from 1940s swashbuckling to aleatory - and the expanded album takes things even further in terms of variety. The range and scope of the composition is staggering. True film music magic and Horner's magnum opus, if that was ever in doubt.

 

Karol

[Smeltington 1,436]

On 02/07/2022 at 5:34 PM, Andy said:

Well, I'm not really sure what's left to be said about Horner, and it's only my opinion, but he was a hack because of how shamelessly he borrowed from others and himself.  (nothing new there). He was a genius because of how he made it not matter.  He was so courageous with how he scored.  He had a way of putting it out there and swinging for the fences, without shame, without restraint.  And most of the time, it worked perfectly for the film, and the emotions of the listener.  So while he drew his inspiration in ways that weren't original, he somehow created an original "Horner" sound.  You know his scores when you hear them, and he really didn't seem to care if you noticed his cyclical quoting or not.  Right up until the end, you could hear bits of Star Trek II in The Amazing Spider-Man.  And we loved him anyways.  The guy had balls, and talent, but I think he was able to craft a sound that resonated with most audiences.  And that's why he was a genius.  Because there are plenty of composers who use temp tracks, or quote ideas from others, but none of them come out as endearing and surprisingly emotive as Horner.  I'm having a tough time articulating it, and that's precisely what I mean... He was able to reuse and recycle and yet come up with something indescribable, compelling, and often critic-proof.

 

Thanks for this writeup, you articulated the whole situation very well. It's true that a lot of Horner's borrowing still somehow feels like it belongs in a Horner score. It somehow doesn't break that special magic you get with his writing.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

We should be so lucky to have film composers stealing from great classical music nowadays.

[Tom Guernsey 2,282]

19 minutes ago, Stu said:

We should be so lucky to have film composers stealing from great classical music nowadays.

Yeah, I miss when film composers had the background and musical education to borrow from Prokofiev, Holst, Shostakovich, Britten, Stravinsky, Rachmaninov, Schumann etc. and I'm not even being remotely sarcastic. Now it's increasing levels of self-cannibalisation like a photocopy of a photocopy that becomes increasingly illegible and only resembles a vague, blocky outline of the original.

[crocodile 7,999]

Yeah, I believe it is yourself who said that Horner managed to sound like "himself" in spite of any influences and quotation. It always sound "of the piece". Yes, you can hear some other composers but it's always filtered through his own voice. Even in some later blockbusters that he's done, as watered-down as they might appear in comparison, you can clearly see someone establishing and developing ideas in a clear way. There's a sense of logic and direction to the music.

 

As for Willow's Theme, it does actually make sense to put it where it is. It clearly divides the score into two halves. The first half is lighter and more exploratory while the second one focuses on epic fantasy battles and grandeur. If they were ever to do this score live to picture it would make sense to divide it the same way. The "concert" edit track feels almost like an Intermission/Entr'acte piece.

 

Karol

[Edmilson 7,426]

A few decades ago, film composers copied from classical music. These days, they copy from Hans Zimmer and Junkie XL. It's telling of how much the quality of film music has dropped when every young composer out there is told to sound like The Dark Knight ("iT's EdGy AnD mOdErN!")

[Jay 37,337]

Google Doc updated to include the Intrada release

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WO7fV0jFS0GEqRqFv35052O4qzYJwCYrlwlSwZZqo50/

[Andy 4,118]

Or they borrow  from Williams, Barry, Bernstein, Goldsmith, etc. etc.  I think each subsequent generation is inspired by the previous one, and has an established sytem and vocabulary of cinematic sound from which to draw.   Sort of how Williams was a student of Golden Age and Herrmann.  A composer today has grown up with a lot of preconceptions and idioms that are themselves influenced by classical or early film. 

 

@Tom Guernseysaid it well. A photocopy of a photocopy. 
 

Karol, I like your assessment of Willow having distinct sounds for part 1 and part 2.  I’m really enjoying this expansion. I guess it’s been a long time since I listened to Willow. It’s got some wonderful complexity to it.   I have every note of Wrath of Khan memorized, but Willow is much more challenging and exploratory. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Google Doc updated to include the Intrada release

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WO7fV0jFS0GEqRqFv35052O4qzYJwCYrlwlSwZZqo50/

 

Excellent work as usual, Jay!

 

Yavar

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I just watched the film for the first time so I experienced the score the way most fans did back in the day.

The film itself is dreadful.

No need to go into detail.

I like the score. It's part of a quadrology of excellent  adventure scores that also includes STII STIII, KRULL, which share a similar musical sound.

I haven't seen KRULL but I find the score much more interesting.

WILLOW is a bit too conventional.

Like the director.

[Trope 527]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:11 AM, Luke Skywalker said:

I haven't seen this mentioned it here nor in FSM forums...but i can't believe people dont hear it as how nitpicky are (we all) sometimes.

 

The track "Sled ride" has i think some pitch-speed issues, specially more noticeable at the 6:28 mark to end. This segment is partially present on the samples on the web site... I didnt' notice it at first but now everytime i hear the score i hear it more, i feel it is almost unlistenable.

 

Is this a mastering error? it does not comply with the description "mastered from original digital stereo mixes made by Shawn Murphy at the scoring sessions and beautifully preserved by engineer Simon Rhodes"

 

Can this be manually corrected like the Temple of doom tracks from the concord set?

 

My copy of the CD won't arrive for another few days, so I won't be able to confirm until then, but I would be very disappointed if this were a real issue. You mentioned that this segment of music is present on the website sample for the "Sled Ride" track. Could you provide a timecode for that?

[Edmilson 7,426]

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

It's part of a quadrology of excellent  adventure scores that also includes STII STIII, KRULL, which share a similar musical sound.

And Battle Beyond the Stars too, right? It was the score that originated that sound.

[Drawgoon 100]

On 06/07/2022 at 10:41 PM, Luke Skywalker said:

The track "Sled ride" has i think some pitch-speed issues, specially more noticeable at the 6:28 mark to end. This segment is partially present on the samples on the web site... I didnt' notice it at first but now everytime i hear the score i hear it more, i feel it is almost unlistenable.

 

Is this a mastering error?

 

 

I recall reading or hearing them say that, although most of the material was in excellent condition, there were some stuff that were damaged, which they supposedly "fixed". Perhaps this cue is one of those and the issue you mentioned is just a remnant of that damage - i.e. something that they were not able to address for now, if not part of their solution to save the cue as a whole from a much bigger problem.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

4 hours ago, Trope said:

My copy of the CD won't arrive for another few days, so I won't be able to confirm until then, but I would be very disappointed if this were a real issue. You mentioned that this segment of music is present on the website sample for the "Sled Ride" track. Could you provide a timecode for that?

The whole segment is already in the noticeable part. Listen to the brass. It has a wavy sound that goes up and down in pitch. I think it is more noticeable around 0,28 secs and towards the en of the sample.

[Trope 527]

28 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

The whole segment is already in the noticeable part. Listen to the brass. It has a wavy sound that goes up and down in pitch. I think it is more noticeable around 0,28 secs and towards the en of the sample.

I just realised it was silly to ask for a timecode as the Intrada samples don't have a playback scrolling option... Regardless, I honestly can't pick up anything that sounded off with the track sample (even with headphones on!). I believe you when you say there might be a mastering issue (I'm sure you're not hearing nothing), but I genuinely can't hear it. Perhaps it could just be some of the brass players' intonation not being 100% perfect?

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

I hope it is just me, for the benefit of the world…but i hope that i’m not losing my hearing … 🥺

 

check again when you have the cd

[Bounty95 558]

2 hours ago, Trope said:

I honestly can't pick up anything that sounded off with the track sample (even with headphones on!)

 

Same for me. I listened to the track several times now and to me it sounds fine. But honestly, it's not really my intention to painstakingly look for flaws since I enjoy this release and want to keep it that way 

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

It must be me really then. I found it at second listening, i was not trying to find flaws at all. I find the whole cue different sounding from the rest, im not speaking about a small glich or blip, that would be nitpicking. 
 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

7 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

It must be me really then. I found it at second listening, i was not trying to find flaws at all. I find the whole cue different sounding from the rest, im not speaking about a small glich or blip, that would be nitpicking. 
 

 

Didn't expect to use this meme so soon!

 

😉