Metadata OCD

[bollemanneke 3,708]

So I’m finally getting on top of my metadata because, well, classical music and all that. And so I am in need of your good counsel again.

 

Do you put the composer in the title? As in: Beethoven – Violin Concerto. I know this is how people supposedly do it, but my issue with it is that you end up grouping everything together and never really remind yourself of another nearby album because all the Beethoven is together. I would never ever write: Williams – Hook, because, well, it’s kind of self-explanatory. What do you think of Violin Concerto (Beethoven?) I like it because it groups violin concertos together and therefore encourages me to look at other related things, but then you start with Symphonies and it just becomes one huge giant mess because everyone wrote them.

 

If you keep your music in a folder structure, how does this work, regardless of your metadata? If you group together, by what/whom?

 

I’m basically looking for a very intuitive way to quickly find things, but am not sure about a right… order.

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

Why would you put the composer in the title? Pretty much every player in existence can use at least the artist tag for sorting and display along with the album and track title. Having the composer/artist in the title is redundant and screws up sorting.

[bollemanneke 3,708]

But then how do you sort using a folder structure?

[Tallguy 4,740]

I never sort by composer / artist. I gather I'm in the minority on this. Because every player / organizer I've ever encountered immediately tries to present my music to me this way by default.

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

4 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

But then how do you sort using a folder structure?

 

What do you mean?

[bollemanneke 3,708]

If your music is in folders, how do you sort the albums?

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

34 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

If your music is in folders, how do you sort the albums?

 

My player/collection manager presents my albums in a tree that can be configured in many different ways. I always stick to the default - artist by alphabet on the first level, then albums by alphabet (excluding articles and the like). But it's easy to change the sorting to e.g. chronological, or albums or genres on the top level, or to filter by genre (but not enough of my albums have the genre tagged correctly for that to be of any use).

 

Listing, sorting, and filtering should be handled by the player software so you don't have to compromise by mis-tagging your files.

[bollemanneke 3,708]

Thank you. So for classical music, who is your artist/album aritst? I'm currently doing artist =composer, albumartist =orchestr/conductor.

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

Artist = composer. Unfortunately. I think the player I use at home could use the composer tag instead of the artist tag, but most other software can't, and there's no standard album composer tag (as far as I know), and also… if I tag a Beethoven symphony with composer = Beethoven, artist = Karajan and a Beatles song with composer = Lennon/McCartney, artist = Beatles, I'd want to have my default view to list the classical album under the composer but the rock album under the artist, and I know no player that does that. So yes, the whole system is flawed, and *some* compromises have to me made.

 

I therefore usually tag the composer as artist and composer for classical/soundtracks, but the band/performer as artist and the actual composer as composer for rock stuff - if I'm not too lazy. I used to put all the individual performers in the comments section (that would allow me to filter by singer even with e.g. opera recordings that have 20+ individual artists), but unfortunately I got too lazy for that years ago. I do put the conductor (and if necessary the orchestra or the year) in the title for classical pieces, because it makes at least viewing and filtering easy, and I never want to sort by that info anyway.

[bollemanneke 3,708]

I'll never bother with composers of pop songs, just the band/singer. I do include singers in operas in the Comment tag, though. Damn the guys who thought it was great to have 235 recordings of everything.

[OneBuckFilms 406]

I set the Composer as the Album Artist, then Composer(s) and Conductor(s) for each track, as well as the usual Year and Genre (soundtracks). For song-scores, or compilations, I use Various.

 

So my file structure is: Album Artist \ Score \ track - track name.mp3

 

For pop songs I separately tag Artist (band), Composer / writer etc.

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

For me:

Album artist / album name / disc - track - track name.flac

 

Some of my early rips put different discs from multi-disc albums in different directories, and I'm annoyed whenever I encounter one of them.

[Tallguy 4,740]

So how do people handle Year on a soundtrack? I think the answer is obvious (year of the film with some exceptions) but I often get imported metadata that uses the year that the expansion is published. So Top Gun, rather than 1986 will say 2024.

 

If it's a film original score I use the film's year no matter when the release. All four of my Star Trek: The Motion Picture releases say 1979.

 

But if it's a re-recording I go with the year it is released rather than the film.

[OneBuckFilms 406]

I like that approach. In those cases, I have separate albums for each disk (Album - Disk 1, Album - Disk 2).

 

Unfortunately some systems seem to choke on the disk number issue.

 

For scores, I tend to join the score into a single continuous album and create separate albums for bonus and alternate cues.

 

Since I'm not restricted to album length, I see little reason to maintain disks when the score is spread over multiple disks.

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

So how do people handle Year on a soundtrack? I think the answer is obvious (year of the film with some exceptions) but I often get imported metadata that uses the year that the expansion is published. So Top Gun, rather than 1986 will say 2024.

 

If it's a film original score I use the film's year no matter when the release. All four of my Star Trek: The Motion Picture releases say 1979.

 

But if it's a re-recording I go with the year it is released rather than the film.

 

This is pretty much my approach. Always the year of the film.

 

If it is a separate re-recording, I sometimes put the year, or some meaningful description in the title.

 

Since I have a curation practice of having one, definitive release of a given score, I don't have to differentiate which release of a score I have, so the year of release or the catalog number is not needed or maintained.

 

To track my actual CDs, I use SoundtrackCollector.com.

[Jay 40,305]

16 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

So how do people handle Year on a soundtrack? I think the answer is obvious (year of the film with some exceptions) but I often get imported metadata that uses the year that the expansion is published. So Top Gun, rather than 1986 will say 2024.

 

If it's a film original score I use the film's year no matter when the release. All four of my Star Trek: The Motion Picture releases say 1979.

 

But if it's a re-recording I go with the year it is released rather than the film.

 

Always the year of the film's release.  I put the year of the soundtrack edition in the album title.

 

So for example, I'd have:

 

David Arnold - 1997 - Tomorrow Never Dies

David Arnold - 1997 - Tomorrow Never Dies (2000 Chapter III)

David Arnold - 1997 - Tomorrow Never Dies (2022 La-La Land)

[OneBuckFilms 406]

I simply have Tomorrow Never Dies for the score.

 

I I kept the other releases, the album names would be:

 

James Bond 18 - Tomorrow Never Dies

James Bond 18 - Tomorrow Never Dies - Original Soundtrack

James Bond 18 - Tomorrow Never Dies - Chapter III

James Bond 18 - Tomorrow Never Dies - Alternates

 

.. and so on.

 

(I know, for some series, such as Star Trek, Star Wars etc., I keep things in an ordered series naming.

 

Star Trek TOS - S1 - 01 - The Cage

Star Trek TOS - S1 - 02 - Where No Man Has Gone Before

 

or

 

Star Wars - 1 - The Phantom Menace

Star Wars - 2 - Attack of the Clones

Star Wars - 3.1 - Solo A Star Wars Story

 

I haven't applied it to all series, but when there are many movies with significant ordering being appropriate, I do so.

 

Always with the release year of the film or TV show season.

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

So how do people handle Year on a soundtrack? […]

 

Yes. The reasoning is the same as with classical music: It's the year the music was recorded/produced that counts (classical albums often have recording dates in one year but a production date in the next year, because that's when the post production was finished (I suppose). So film year for the original recording (whenever released), and re-recording year for re-recordings. Otherwise I'd have to research when the music was actually *composed*, and also put the composition year for all classical albums - never mind the headache of trying to tag rock albums that contains songs written earlier.

 

1 hour ago, OneBuckFilms said:

For scores, I tend to join the score into a single continuous album and create separate albums for bonus and alternate cues.

 

Yes.

 

1 hour ago, OneBuckFilms said:

If it is a separate re-recording, I sometimes put the year, or some meaningful description in the title.

 

Yes.

[Chewy 2,603]

On 29/02/2024 at 12:10 PM, Richard Penna said:

Apple Music is a reliable source of 1200x1200 versions of most things (with some URL fiddling in a few cases) with Spotify as a backup or the label's website in some cases.

 

You can use this tool to get covers from various services, in their full quality (without having to bother modifying URL): https://covers.musichoarders.xyz/

[Richard P 4,375]

Ah, neat, thanks! It bugged me a little that I had Dragon 2 and 3 in full 3000x3000 but not the first one, plus the imminent arrival of the RoP box obviously required those 9 covers to be given proper treatment.

 

Wouldn't it be neat if the CD format allowed (and if it does, were more exploited) high-res album art to be included when put in a PC. Isn't that what those 'enhanced' CDs from the early 00s did, with screensavers and such?

 

20 hours ago, Tallguy said:

So how do people handle Year on a soundtrack? I think the answer is obvious (year of the film with some exceptions) but I often get imported metadata that uses the year that the expansion is published. So Top Gun, rather than 1986 will say 2024.

 

I have just one case where it's a bit of a mess, and I came up with a naming that isn't tidy in itself, but does the job:

 

Robin Hood (BBC)

Robin Hood '10

Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves

 

In all other cases, I have at most the OST and an expansion, so Score XYZ: OST for the OST, then whatever takes my fancy for the expansion. If it's Varese I usually do Score XZY: The Deluxe Edition and if it's another label, Score XZY (LLL) or Score XZY (Intrada)

 

I can't think of any cases where I've got more than two versions, because it's not in my collecting nature to keep multiple expansions, so for JP for example, I just have the 2016 box - not the OST, anniversary set, nor the new one. Unless a fundamentally different listening experience is offered between expanded releases, I just keep the one I like the most (usually the most recent).

[bollemanneke 3,708]

22 hours ago, Tallguy said:

So how do people handle Year on a soundtrack? I think the answer is obvious (year of the film with some exceptions) but I often get imported metadata that uses the year that the expansion is published. So Top Gun, rather than 1986 will say 2024.

 

If it's a film original score I use the film's year no matter when the release. All four of my Star Trek: The Motion Picture releases say 1979.

 

But if it's a re-recording I go with the year it is released rather than the film.

Original film score: ALWAYS film year, regardless of expansion or not

Re-recording: always year of re-recording

[bollemanneke 3,708]

And we are FINISHED! 1500+ albums tagged, and tagged properly. Let the proofing begin.

[bollemanneke 3,708]

Slightly unrelated: How do you all organise your music in FOLDERS? I'm not interested in metadata, that's sorted.

[Tom Guernsey 2,810]

2 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Slightly unrelated: How do you all organise your music in FOLDERS? I'm not interested in metadata, that's sorted.

I let iTunes do it for me. Which it actually does quite well to be fair. It’s artist/album/tracks. All compilations are effectively saved as the artist being “compilation”. I think any album which has tracks by a different artist keeps the whole album saved under the overall artist for the album (if you’ve not marked it as a compilation). So in iTunes the fox fanfare has artist as Alfred Newman but the whole Star Wars score is in the JW folder. 

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Slightly unrelated: How do you all organise your music in FOLDERS? I'm not interested in metadata, that's sorted.

 

One album = one folder. I may make exceptions when ripping a box set where the individual discs don't really constitute separate "albums", in which case I may treat the entire box as one big album.

 

This allows me to easily find whole CDs in the file system when I need to. It also allows me to tag individual works on a single album (e.g. two multi movement symphonies) as separate albums so they show up individually in my music player, while still giving me the option of checking the folder on the file system to see the original album pairing in case I want to put the whole album programme in my playlist.

[Datameister 2,362]

7 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Slightly unrelated: How do you all organise your music in FOLDERS? I'm not interested in metadata, that's sorted.

 

Album Artist\Album\

[Gabriel Bezerra 469]

7 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I let iTunes do it for me. Which it actually does quite well to be fair. It’s artist/album/tracks. All compilations are effectively saved as the artist being “compilation”. I think any album which has tracks by a different artist keeps the whole album saved under the overall artist for the album (if you’ve not marked it as a compilation). So in iTunes the fox fanfare has artist as Alfred Newman but the whole Star Wars score is in the JW folder. 

iTunes also has an error (or safeguard) in witch a filename can only reach a certain number of characters (in the metadata it's fine), and it will cut when it reaches that. That also happens with album titles of they're too big, and it kinda works with those episodic or multiple volumes realeases, if what differs the albums is after the character's limit, it'll put everything in the same folder.

[OneBuckFilms 406]

12 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

Album Artist\Album\

 

I do the same. I susually assign Composer to the Album Artist for scores, and "Various Artists" for "song score" type releases or compilations, where there is no primary composer.

 

On the Metadata side: I always populate Composer, Conductor and Artist for all cues / songs. Sometimes there is nothing specific available, but where possible I do this.

[Tallguy 4,740]

Because I'm using folders more in PowerAmp I'm starting to get fancier with my folder structure.

 

genre
 |
 --- album
     |
     --- 1 Original Score
     --- 2 Alternates
     --- 3 Original LP
         |
         --- Side 1
         --- Side 2
 --- album
 --- album
     |
     --- Side 1
     --- Side 2
     --- Side 3
     --- Side 4
 --- album

 

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

Album Artist\Album\

 

Album Artist/Album/

[OneBuckFilms 406]

I think we have a Linux or Mac user here

[Meredith McKay 7,071]

[Datameister 2,362]

3 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Album Artist/Album/

I'm not a barbarian!

[Bayesian 1,448]

On 2/10/2024 at 4:40 AM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

One album = one folder.

This is the only way to do it. It’s also convenient that, this way, there’s always going to be at least one piece of artwork for the folder available (i.e., the album cover).

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

1 hour ago, Bayesian said:

This is the only way to do it. It’s also convenient that, this way, there’s always going to be at least one piece of artwork for the folder available (i.e., the album cover).

 

Which can cause problems, e.g. when I ripped the Bruckner/Wiener Philharmoniker/Thielemann Blu-ray box set and tagged each symphony as an individual album, but put them all in one big folder (as a box set). And then tried to assign each album the cover of the corresponding CD release...

[Bayesian 1,448]

9 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Which can cause problems, e.g. when I ripped the Bruckner/Wiener Philharmoniker/Thielemann Blu-ray box set and tagged each symphony as an individual album, but put them all in one big folder (as a box set). And then tried to assign each album the cover of the corresponding CD release...

Are you using iTunes/Apple Music or a different program? It has always worked for me in iTunes/AM. Mind you, i only ever work with CD rips; maybe blurays are different.

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

mpd/Cantata. I think it just puts the thumbnails into the album's directory, so they conflict with each other. It can deal with embedded artwork and all that stuff, but I believe if I pick a cover for an album directly in Cantata, it just copies it into the directory instead of re-tagging the files.

[Tallguy 4,740]

OK, I currently have my artists and album artists First Name Last Name rather than Last Name, First Name.

 

Who considers this the right and proper way to do things and who thinks it's heresy of the highest order? And who can change my mind one way or the other?

 

Changing it all might be a lot of work, but it could be kind of soothing. Like knitting.

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

I think it is The Way, but it would be better if the tags actually distinguished between first and last names, so we could sort them both ways. Ideally, I would have the artists displayed as (first name) (last name) in the playlist, but sorted by last name first in the collection (as on my actual shelf).

 

Curiously, there's *one* album in my collection (a digital download) that is tagged (first name) (last name), but somehow sorted as if it were the other way round by my player…

 

 

…and I've never been able to figure out why, or how it even knows to sort it under G.

 

(And yes, I should separate those Holst & Co album tracks according to their individual composers)

[Tallguy 4,740]

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

…and I've never been able to figure out why, or how it even knows to sort it under G.

 

Does it have a sort tag?

[Marian Schedenig 9,387]

13 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Does it have a sort tag?

 

Ha, you know what, it does - but only on one of the albums, which is why I hadn't found it before:

 

I suppose if some tracks by an artist have a sort tag and others do not, my player uses that sort tag for all the tracks (which makes sense, but I now wonder what would happen if different tracks have different sort tags).

 

That means I could tag all my artists that way… but then my player would *always* sort them with their last name first while displaying them with the first name first, and I'm not sure if that might not be too confusing…

[Tallguy 4,740]

I've started. I'm up to Charles Gerhardt.

[Gabriel Bezerra 469]

On 17/10/2024 at 5:46 PM, Tallguy said:

OK, I currently have my artists and album artists First Name Last Name rather than Last Name, First Name.

 

Who considers this the right and proper way to do things and who thinks it's heresy of the highest order? And who can change my mind one way or the other?

 

Changing it all might be a lot of work, but it could be kind of soothing. Like knitting.

If we go by the AACR2 rules, Album Artist should be Last Name, First Name, and Artists, Composer and so on should be First Name Last Name if the album artist is the primary entry.

 

Williams, John

E.T. : The extra-terrestrial / John Williams; Mastered by Mike Matessino. 40th Anniversary Edition. Burbank, CA: LaLaLand Records, 2022.

 

If the title is the primary entry, then the album artist should stay First Name Last Name.

 

You're not in a library though, so I don't think it's necessary. I don't see how useful it would be.