Fabulin 3,510 Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 From the director of the Puerto Rico Symphony Orchestra (with ties to Tanglewood), Rafael Enrique Irizarry: source: https://slippedisc.com/2022/06/john-williams-this-will-be-my-last-film/ Once, Madmartigan JC, crlbrg and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,650 Posted July 4, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2022 I think the fact that a chunk was written 4 years ago undermines the rumor--Williams has freely discussed his plans for concert works of late--I think he would have mentioned it. WilliamsStarShip2282, Will, Taikomochi and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,510 Posted July 4, 2022 Author Share Posted July 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tom said: I think the fact that a chunk was written 4 years ago undermines the rumor--Williams has freely discussed his plans for concert works of late--I think he would have mentioned it. unless it is a work that is not going as well as he would wish, or the completion of which he is very unsure of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,650 Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Ordinarily, I would say that is unlikely, but given his history with symphonies, it is not out the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,480 Posted July 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 5, 2022 The guy wrote over 100 "symphonies-disguised-as-film-scores" in his life, but could not "formally" finish one. bollemanneke, Tydirium and WilliamsStarShip2282 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Brausam 214 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 I’m not sure why Denéve would work to commit Williams to a symphony for Philadelphia, he conducts there often for Williams related concerts but is not the music director there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Bespin said: The guy wrote over 100 "symphonies-disguised-as-film-scores" in his life, but could not "formally" finish one. You know i often thought that when the idea of him writing a symphony comes up. What would be the point of him writing a "symphony" since hes essentially done so many many times with his film scores, plus all the orchestra pieces. I'm sure he would be much more interested in writing something else, especially since the idea of a "symphony" is pretty outdated. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,511 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 I don't believe it. You guys are turning your noses up at a new JW piece of music?! You are all dead, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 5, 2022 5 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said: You know i often thought that when the idea of him writing a symphony comes up. What would be the point of him writing a "symphony" since hes essentially done so many many times with his film scores, plus all the orchestra pieces. I'm sure he would be much more interested in writing something else, especially since the idea of a "symphony" is pretty outdated. A film score is not a symphony. Williams certainly wrote symphonically for many films (Star Wars, Superman, Harry Potter), but a film score is inevitably subjugated to a series of preconditions that put musical structure underneath the film's needs. The film is always king. This doesn't mean that a film score is necessarily inferior to a symphony from a pure musical standpoint, of course. We can talk about the importance (or not) of form and structure all day long, but a symphony is generally an opportunity for a composer to unleash all of his/her musical imagination and knowledge without boundaries or preconditions, save for the ones that are set by the composer. I would really love to hear JW tackling a symphony and despite I will treat this item just as a wild rumor, I would not be surprised if he's thinking of writing one. I mean, he just announced he's finally writing a piano concerto at 90, so why not a proper symphony as well? Remco, Tydirium, Andy and 9 others 10 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, TownerFan said: A film score is not a symphony. Williams certainly wrote symphonically for many films (Star Wars, Superman, Harry Potter), but a film score is inevitably subjugated to a series of preconditions that put musical structure underneath the film's needs. The film is always king. This doesn't mean that a film score is necessarily inferior to a symphony from a pure musical standpoint, of course. We can talk about the importance (or not) of form and structure all day long, but a symphony is generally an opportunity for a composer to unleash all of his/her musical imagination and knowledge without boundaries or preconditions, save for the ones that are set by the composer. I would really love to hear JW tackling a symphony and despite I will treat this item just as a wild rumor, I would not be surprised if he's thinking of writing one. I mean, he just announced he's finally writing a piano concerto at 90, so why not a proper symphony as well? With the exception of the flute concerto, all of his concerti and solo works have been for a particular soloist, which is the point of interest for him. But a "symphony" is similar to saying a "piano sonata". Traditionally and by the book, those two things have multiple movements, with each movement having its own traditional form, and depending on what you consider the standard for a symphony, even the movements are per-determined. I don't think he's really interested in such a thing anymore, unless he wrote a huge, one movement orchestra piece like "soundings" which is essentially a symphony in a sense. Even though its one continuous piece, there is a lot in there. But I think the symphony really died with composers like Debussy where, take La Mer. It isnt called a symphony but its cut up into movements. What makes it not a symphony is that the form is Debussy's own, unlike Mahler, who followed the traditional forms, even if he pushed that to its absolute limit. So in a sense, to write a "symphony" is like a straight jacket if you write a true symphony. On the other side, there have been many contemporary composers who wrote symphonies but they weren't really a symphony. Just movements of whatever they felt like writing packaged together and called a symphony. Unless of course you go back like Stravinsky who wrote Symphonies of Wind Instruments, which goes back to the original root of the word essentially meaning multiple instruments sounding together in harmony. So a huge orchestra piece would be awesome, but a symphony or something called a symphony being produced is probably unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 I think, Williams is less thinking about, how close he would follow the classical form of a symphony, but rather if he from his point of view can contribute something valuable to that musical genre, that is really worth the effort. His time is precious. Fabulin and WilliamsStarShip2282 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,998 Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 I would love to hear him compose something like this again: Karol BrotherSound and WilliamsStarShip2282 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 On 05/07/2022 at 12:47 PM, TownerFan said: A film score is not a symphony. Williams certainly wrote symphonically for many films (Star Wars, Superman, Harry Potter), but a film score is inevitably subjugated to a series of preconditions that put musical structure underneath the film's needs. The film is always king. This doesn't mean that a film score is necessarily inferior to a symphony from a pure musical standpoint, of course. We can talk about the importance (or not) of form and structure all day long, but a symphony is generally an opportunity for a composer to unleash all of his/her musical imagination and knowledge without boundaries or preconditions, save for the ones that are set by the composer. I would really love to hear JW tackling a symphony and despite I will treat this item just as a wild rumor, I would not be surprised if he's thinking of writing one. I mean, he just announced he's finally writing a piano concerto at 90, so why not a proper symphony as well? You do have a point, but I still kind of disagree. Sure, film is king, but when you’re writing a symphony, slavishly following the structure of a symphony is/was king to most composers. Haydn wrote 104 of them and the world probably needed 3. Mozart’s first says more than Haydn’s last and his last ones are as memorable as a JW score. Beethoven’s cycle is a musical journey helped along by his refusal to obsessively stick to the same rules, though some movements still suffer from it. I suppose one could even argue the Pastoral is a ‘film score’, as is the Eroica and the ninth, because they tell a story. We just don’t have the images Beethoven had in his mind’s eye when composing it. And as far as I’m concerned, the seventh is an Irish party disguised as classical music. Tchaikovsky’s last two are arguably as captivating as a theatrical Williams score too, as is Dvorák’s 9th. Bruckner and Mahler only seem to care about one thing: duration (and boring me to death with walls of noise). As for Williams… I find it hard to think of scores like Hook or Harry Potter 1 as just a film score. They could be symphonies in all but name as far as I’m concerned. It’s just Williams taking me on a musical journey like Beethoven or Tchaikovsky. It’s obviously not his story and it accompanies a director’s vision, but he has created musical worlds that are so memorable and beautiful that we don’t really need the films anymore. In short, what makes, say, The Quidditch Match different from A Merry Gathering of Country Folk? Nothing but Williams being bound to images and Beethoven being bound to musical conventions. WilliamsStarShip2282 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, bollemanneke said: Haydn wrote 104 of them and the world probably needed 3. Mozart’s first says more than Haydn’s last and his last ones are as memorable as a JW score. Nobody listen to this wacko blondheim, Cerebral Cortex, WilliamsStarShip2282 and 3 others 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 Okay, fixed, we needed five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,650 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Remember the old question: Did Haydn write 104 symphonies or did he write one sympony 104 times? WilliamsStarShip2282 and bollemanneke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 It's originally a joke about Vivaldi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,650 Posted July 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2022 Vivaldi jokes are seasonal; Haydn, timeless. MaxTheHouseelf, blondheim, Bayesian and 5 others 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dneuner89 3 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 On 4/7/2022 at 7:59 PM, Joe Brausam said: I’m not sure why Denéve would work to commit Williams to a symphony for Philadelphia, he conducts there often for Williams related concerts but is not the music director there. Right, he’s the MD for the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra, my hometown band, and I would be beyond thrilled if they were contracted! 😜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 15 hours ago, Tom said: Remember the old question: Did Haydn write 104 symphonies or did he write one sympony 104 times? 13 hours ago, Tom said: Vivaldi jokes are seasonal; Haydn, timeless. It works for both, and a great many more.... like Phillip Glass..... Although I must say this. Many composers get into that for sometimes more reason than one, where all their music is variations on the same idea (or sometimes literally copy and pasting and perhaps just altering slightly the same materials over and over again. Phillip Glass does it all the time, and actually, so did Mozart) In fact, significantly more composers are/were that way . One exception would be Stravinsky for example, where his own interests, and a slight dabbling in film scoring (he got farther than Schonberg, if memory serves he did four scores, all rejected and revised as concert works) allowed him to explore various musical elements. That was naturally his own interest, like in 12-tone music, but he took some commissions, like the circus polka and a concerto for Benny Goodman which the average person would not expect from the creator of The Rite of Spring. So life circumstances along with his own diverse interests allowed him to create so many different works. And one has to wonder if he hadn't moved to LA and experienced Schonberg first hand, would he have ever gotten into 12-tone music? Williams is the same. He has such an enormously rich and diverse collection of work that its astounding it all came out of one person. And so much has come from film, and it is only naturally that with each project, even as he says, he gets better. So one has to think again, if he had been a strictly "concert" composer, would he have had anywhere near the same career or body of work that he has? Thats why its so incredibly silly for those to say that hes less legitimate or something because he wrote for film, and he should spend time writing something like a "symphony", as if some unexplored or undiscovered magic will flow out of him simply because hes writing a "symphony". And I agree with bollmanneke, the form of a symphony is just as restrictive, or even in some cases more so than a film. Plus, we need to take into account that JW does not write cues like any other film composer. They are pieces of music that, 90% (or more) of the time can function perfectly well on their own, without even context of what they were written for. And just as a side note to that, I find that the concert pieces that he wrote as gifts or out of his own interest, with a few exceptions, are better than the pieces that were commissioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2022 On 05/07/2022 at 2:59 PM, WilliamsStarShip2282 said: With the exception of the flute concerto, all of his concerti and solo works have been for a particular soloist, which is the point of interest for him. But a "symphony" is similar to saying a "piano sonata". Traditionally and by the book, those two things have multiple movements, with each movement having its own traditional form, and depending on what you consider the standard for a symphony, even the movements are per-determined. I don't think he's really interested in such a thing anymore, unless he wrote a huge, one movement orchestra piece like "soundings" which is essentially a symphony in a sense. Even though its one continuous piece, there is a lot in there. But I think the symphony really died with composers like Debussy where, take La Mer. It isnt called a symphony but its cut up into movements. What makes it not a symphony is that the form is Debussy's own, unlike Mahler, who followed the traditional forms, even if he pushed that to its absolute limit. John is modest enough to avoid even the slightest sense of self-importance when writing for the concert hall. During the recent interview with Gramophone, he even said that he does not consider the Violin Concerto No.2 very much like a traditional concerto, but more like a suite for violin and orchestra, causing the interviewer to remark that the piece is absolutely a concerto in its fullest sense. I think form is absolutely important for Williams, but he never constraints himself, especially when writing for the concert hall. Sure, anyone might say if it makes sense to write a traditionally styled symphony in the 21st century, as much as it does writing a piano concerto. As you said, Williams thinks first about the person he's writing to before anything else (if he would ever tackle a symphony, he might do it by writing for a group of people he knows intimately well, like the BSO or the LA Phil), but it's also a chance for him to stretch a different set of muscles, so he would also think about what he might contribute in terms of style, substance, form and expressiveness, like he always does when writing concert music. On 05/07/2022 at 2:59 PM, WilliamsStarShip2282 said: So in a sense, to write a "symphony" is like a straight jacket if you write a true symphony. On the other side, there have been many contemporary composers who wrote symphonies but they weren't really a symphony. Just movements of whatever they felt like writing packaged together and called a symphony. Unless of course you go back like Stravinsky who wrote Symphonies of Wind Instruments, which goes back to the original root of the word essentially meaning multiple instruments sounding together in harmony. So a huge orchestra piece would be awesome, but a symphony or something called a symphony being produced is probably unlikely. It could be anything and he might call it whatever he prefers, in my book. I'd just love to hear a multi-movement symphonic piece where his imagination can go unbridled as far as he wants, without worrying of edits, sound fx or dialogue. I think Soundings is indeed the closest to such a thing. 21 hours ago, bollemanneke said: You do have a point, but I still kind of disagree. Sure, film is king, but when you’re writing a symphony, slavishly following the structure of a symphony is/was king to most composers. Haydn wrote 104 of them and the world probably needed 3. Mozart’s first says more than Haydn’s last and his last ones are as memorable as a JW score. Beethoven’s cycle is a musical journey helped along by his refusal to obsessively stick to the same rules, though some movements still suffer from it. I suppose one could even argue the Pastoral is a ‘film score’, as is the Eroica and the ninth, because they tell a story. We just don’t have the images Beethoven had in his mind’s eye when composing it. And as far as I’m concerned, the seventh is an Irish party disguised as classical music. Tchaikovsky’s last two are arguably as captivating as a theatrical Williams score too, as is Dvorák’s 9th. Bruckner and Mahler only seem to care about one thing: duration (and boring me to death with walls of noise). As for Williams… I find it hard to think of scores like Hook or Harry Potter 1 as just a film score. They could be symphonies in all but name as far as I’m concerned. It’s just Williams taking me on a musical journey like Beethoven or Tchaikovsky. It’s obviously not his story and it accompanies a director’s vision, but he has created musical worlds that are so memorable and beautiful that we don’t really need the films anymore. In short, what makes, say, The Quidditch Match different from A Merry Gathering of Country Folk? Nothing but Williams being bound to images and Beethoven being bound to musical conventions. It's not about value, but it's about a chance of expressing yourself in a different context, where music is the first and solely thing that matters. Personally, I'm not of the camp who sees any piece of music as a vehicle for storytelling. Music can exist just for the sake of itself, i.e. an organized collection of sounds driven by the intellect of somebody who wants to express an idea or an emotion through a specific language. We can listen to Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony and picture "scenes of country life" as marked on LvB's score. But we can also just focus on the sounds and get inside the music without associating an image in our head, as much as Beethoven did when he wrote it. That's the beauty of music, it can express multitude of things at the same time. The Quidditch Match is a terrific, exciting and fanciful piece of music, constructed with the greatest sense of drama, architecture and musical coherence. I believe it can be performed in concert as is without changing too much. But it's a piece that was meant to fulfill a very specific need, i.e. accompany the scene of a film. Virtually all of what you hear was dictated by something that wasn't decided by the composer, but by the film itself. It's a different thing, and again, it's not about aeshetic/artistic value per se. It's about context and purpose. karelm, bollemanneke, Bayesian and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 If you want to get around the term symphony composers were always creative calling their "symphonies" symphonic poem or symphonic dances, symphonic whatever. Symphony No. 2 would probably also drive too much attention again to symphony No. 1, which might not be in Williams' interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 You know what always got me, Bartok's "Concerto for Orchestra". Talk about something mislabeled. THAT would be a real symphony, even though it has one extra movement, which still some symphonies have. The whole work seems like a classic symphony modernized, and I really don't understand why he called it a "concerto" unless he simply liked the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lairdo 726 Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 I would love a symphony from Williams. In some ways, since his symphony from the 60's was removed from circulation (not that it was played that often), the lack of a symphony is actually odd given how much music Williams has composed for the concert hall. I agree that his usual motivations are to work with other musicians, and in those cases, the impetus would be lessened in working with an institution such as the Philadelphia Orchestra or the Boston Symphony. It's hard to form a connection with a large group of musicians versus a select few at a time (Ma, Mutter, Ma & Zhou, etc). And symphonies are still being written. Williams would certainly know many of the American ones in the 20th century: Copland wrote 3, Bernstein 3, Hanson 4, Diamond a bunch, Billy Schuman a bunch, Glass, some of John Adams' works are sort of symphonies. Beyond the US, Stravinsky as mentioned, Britten wrote some smaller ones, Shostakovich wrote 15, his friend Weinberg more than that, Prokofiev, Part, Norberg, and of course there are those of Walton and Vaughan Williams JW must know. In this century, Glass continues to write them (as noted above). Mason Bates is another composer who has. John Harbison another. John Corigliano finished his third. However, if much of these are not ringing bells, it's because most of them have not entered the repertory. Beyond the Boston Modern Orchestra Project, directed by Gil Rose and highly recommended for their output, orchestras don't play new symphonies very often. They commission smaller pieces that can open concerts but not anchor them. So, new stuff gets played once, maybe twice. However, concerti and other works for specific artists do get played at least in the first few years. Look how often Violin Concerto No. 2 has been played in less than a year, and not always with Williams at the podium. I am sure Mutter is playing pieces from Across the Stars as encores in some of her non-Williams related performances as well. I would not describe the desire for one's work to be played to ego per se, but I do think Williams can take pleasure from the work being out there and heard. A symphony would work against that to some extent due to its size and lack of a singular champion. Of course, there are a number of Williams pieces that are played regularly. The olympic music and many of the marches are staples of military and school bands. Schindler's List's music is popular for soloists and shows up on recording all the time. But a symphony is not something that just drops in from time to time. It takes a lot of work for an orchestra and conductor to learn it. So, that might also limit its appeal to Williams to write it. The two big genres that are also absent from Williams output are ballet and opera. Ballet is probably too akin to a film to be interesting to him. (He actually has referred to his film music as being closer to ballet music than opera.) Williams has said in the past he would have been interested in doing an opera but was not interested in spending the 4 years to do it. This was around 10 years ago I think. It's a shame though that he did not do one as it would have been an interesting combination of his symphonic and vocal writing for a different visual medium. But similar to symphonies, new operas rarely enter mass performance runs either. I think Mason Bates and Jake Hegge have had a few of their output gain some traction, and maybe Terrance Blanchard's recent work "Fire Shut Up in My Bones" for the MetOpera will gain longer attention. But it's rare. (Blanchard of course is also a film composer - Red Tails for example.) Ultimately, whatever the motivations, I am thankful for any new works in any format. But I would love to hear a symphony all the same even if the economics and realities of concert hall performances are against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,630 Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 I hope it sounds more like his film music than his concertos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,349 Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 I would be happy with a revised version of symphony No. 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,630 Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 we've never heard it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 This actually reminded me of the percussion concerto that was carved in stone that never happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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