Did anyone else ever hide the fact you listened to film scores or were embarrassed to admit it to friends?

[Mr. Gitz 85]

I went to high school during the early 2000s just as MP3 players & IPODS became standard devices kids brought to school. Often times kids would share ears buds while studying or what have you. But not me. I was so over protective of my IPod lest anyone find out the kind of music I truly loved. John Williams, Howard Shore, Danny Elfman, Ennio Morricone, Thomas Newman, Michael Kamen(my first soundtrack CD I ever bought was X-Men!). It sounds ridiculous to admit now. But I was truly embarrassed about loving film music and being a film geek. I didn’t fit in with that particular cohort or stereotype. I was athletic, fairly popularish and hid my true self from “friends”. I still remember my “coming out” as a film score and film buff during a trivia contest I won. I didn’t just win, I dominated. My pride got the better of my embarrassment. Friends knew I loved going to the movies but they didn’t know I was a true “nerd”. I still remember hurriedly hiding my Star Wars memorabilia in my room before my new girlfriend came over. Or making excuses when a friend would see what was on my IPod. “Oh my sister loves classical music and borrows my IPod”. I cringe when I think of how embarrassed I was. 
 

Was I alone in doing this? Did anyone else hide the fact that they didn’t just listen to “regular” music? 

[JNHFan2000 2,943]

No you are not alone. I had the same thing during high school and some later parts of my life. I still only know one other person personally who listens to film music so for a very long time I thought I was alone in this.

 

I am a ginger and used to be quite big during high. Add to that, that for a lot of people, film music sounds like classical music. And I was an easy target. It did feel alone sometimes.

 

But since I'm done with school, I actually don't feel like that at all and look back on it in a weird way. Why should I feel embaressed for something I like.

Film music is for me the greatest form of music and now I'm very proud about loving it so much.

 

(You made a few threads the last few days which really peaked my interest. I think a lot about the same stuff. Great!)

[Bespin 8,475]

I use one phrase:

 

- "I'm a John Williams expert, you know the film music composer... Star Wars, Indiana Jones?".

 

- "Ah..."

 

And here's my husband favourite phrase when he comes to my office : "OMG!!!  What terrible music you listen to???"

[DarthDementous 1,059]

Yes! It's so much more mainstream now, like many other 'nerdy' things

[Dave 217]

I was in school during the rise of spotify so the most ones where kinda open to it. In fact everytime I visited a friend we listened to scores from their favorite Films/Shows.

 

But they still don't understand why I still collect CDs or why the digital albums are sometime shorter and shuffled.

[1977 1,743]

I always have and continue to hide this shame from everyone 

[Bespin 8,475]

Spotify in school.... cool!

 

This is how I shared music in school

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I have a distinct memory of senior year, me and one of my best friends sitting in my '93 Ford Explorer at 8am right before school was starting and blasting "Mischief Managed" like other kids blasted System of a Down or whatever  

[GerateWohl 4,326]

I never was ashamed or anything about my passion for motion picture scores. It was simply never a topic in conversation with others and since I also liked a lot of other more popular music that was then rather the kind of music that I shared with others.

 

Until I was about 30 I met three people who also listened to some kind of film music. One made me aware of Michael Nyman, one was a fan of Jerry Goldsmith and Danny Elfman, the third one was a big fan of Chris Young, but was a big fan overall and gave me particularly deeper insights into the world of film music.

 

 

Apart from that I realized, that almost every person with a CD collection has some soundtrrack album.

Most ladies, I dated as a student, had some score album in their collection like Rachel Portman's Chocolat or Goran Bregović's Arizona Dream or any Hans Zimmer score. 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrJosh 892]

I had some people say I was 'lame' or a 'loser' for listening to film music on my iPod. 

 

What happened moreso was people would ask me "what music are you into?" and if I answered "movie soundtracks", most would say "oh yeah cool..." and then go onto mention soundtracks like the Mission: Impossible album (mostly songs except the Elfman suites on there), or other 'soundtracks' that were compilations of songs. 

 

Once they figured out that I meant the actual score and not albums of songs from movies, then their reaction was more of the "oh....people actually listen to that stuff?"

 

I listened to classical music a lot too, so that didn't help my coolness much at all. I still had some rock and pop on my iPod so...there was that at least. 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I didn't care if they cared. 

Its never been important to me what others think about what I like. 

Of course I grew up in the age where virtually everything JW touched was gold.

Now film music is an afterthought and the level of quality is all over the place.

[Jay 37,281]

No.

[mstrox 6,643]

I never hid it, and my close friends knew, but it never really came up.  I’ve always kind of had a 50/50 split between orchestral music and other stuff, so we always connected through the Other Stuff.

[rough cut 1,714]

I remember being about 13-14 and showing my best friend at the time my Star Wars CD (John Williams conducts John Williams, The Skywalker Symphony) and pointing out that the tracks weren’t 3-4 minutes (as a “pop” track would be) but could be up to almost 8 minutes (The Throne Room)… and arguing the point that the music had to be this long because it evolves, it goes through different stages, it has to “breathe”… he wasn’t impressed. 😂

[Edmilson 7,384]

I didn't exactly hide my taste in film music from family and friends, but I didn't brought up it either. So most of them simply don't know 

 

No need for me to be seen by my cohorts as the weirdo who likes "that sad piano music that plays in movies".

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

10 hours ago, Bespin said:

And here's my husband favourite phrase when he comes to my office : "OMG!!!  What terrible music you listen to???"

You should play him IMAGES. If that doesn't make him file for divorce, nothing will! 

[Loert 2,510]

It's not something I hide, when somebody asks me what music I like to listen to. But I've found that mentioning "film music" more often than not leads to utterly perplexed looks on people's faces. I guess either they can't fathom listening to film music on its own, or they've never considered the fact that one can listen to film music on its own. If they're not perplexed then they probably think I mean soundtrack albums, not scores, and that my Top 10 playlist includes the likes of My Heart Will Go On and Can You Feel the Love Tonight.

 

Should be mentioned, of course, that these days film music ranges across many genres, from John Williams's TROS to Einaudi's Intouchables to Jonny Greenwood's Phantom Thread to Hans Zimmer's Interstellar...so just saying you like "film music" isn't enough to deduce your taste in music, really. That's why I never mention the fact that my favourite score is How To Train Your Dragon...

[Oswin Pond 58]

This thread is quite sad but glad to see other people are in the same situation. 

It's still going on today. I was in a videogame university (So people are already MORE pre-disposed to like score music since we're all nerds) but even there I was ashamed of it.

 

2 years ago in that university, we were all working on personal project in a small classroom, we were around 10 people, and we had a Hi-fi system in the classroom. We had a deal where we choose a music and put it on the Hi-fi, one per person and rotate. When it was my turn I put a track from Revenge of the Sith and I was mocked for "liking old things". They said it wasn't "real music" because "it has no beat". They ended up skipping my turn entirely and I cried lol.  Worst thing is I had to endure 9 shitty horrible pop song to get to my turn and I respected it because it was the deal but they didn't respect mine.

I've also been told I was depressed because I was listening to movie music and I needed more pop to get better lol. 

 

Even besides events like this, personally I have absolutely no one to talk to when it comes to music. Sure some people say "wow the music in this movie was very cool" but any in-depth discussion about leitmotiv or behind the scene is met with disapproval and disinterest. It's a bit sad but I'm grateful this forum exists.

[LSH 968]

I brought up my sister (12 years my junior) on film and, by extension, film music. She thinks it is an utterly geeky art-form and I'm guessing that she wouldn't admit to being a fan to her friends. However, she knows certain composers by name - and points them out in the credits - which I'm always impressed by.

 

And if I play cues from her childhood favourites [Jurassic Park, Ice Age 2, Chicken Run, Finding Nemo, etc] she bawls her fucking eyes out. Such a great emotional connection.

[Edmilson 7,384]

2 hours ago, Oswin Pond said:

2 years ago in that university, we were all working on personal project in a small classroom, we were around 10 people, and we had a Hi-fi system in the classroom. We had a deal where we choose a music and put it on the Hi-fi, one per person and rotate. When it was my turn I put a track from Revenge of the Sith and I was mocked for "liking old things". They said it wasn't "real music" because "it has no beat". They ended up skipping my turn entirely and I cried lol.  Worst thing is I had to endure 9 shitty horrible pop song to get to my turn and I respected it because it was the deal but they didn't respect mine.

Your story reminded me what happened to me back in early 2017, in the final weeks before I got my bachelor degree.

 

I was in a stupid Documentary class, and the teacher asked the students to edit the filming of another group of students doing some voluntary work and building a new community center for the university. 

 

I took the raw filming home and, while editing it, I realized it could use some music. So I chose one of my favorite cues ever: Thomas Newman's The Rhythm of the Horse, from The Horse Whisperer, plus parts of some other cues from that score. I thought the music added an epic, emotional dimension to all the hard work the students were doing, and I really worked hard on trying to make what happened onscreen match the Newman score. I felt like Spielberg editing ET to John Williams' music lol

 

However, when I played what I had done on classroom, not only the teacher but also the other students hated it and criticized the use of music. I was utterly humiliated. How could I explain how I thought that melodramatic and over-the-top music from a 90s romance movie no one remembered anymore could work with the filming? So I took the music off and finally the teacher liked my work enough to give me a good grade.

 

But, after that, I kept my love of this kind of music to myself.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, Oswin Pond said:

This thread is quite sad but glad to see other people are in the same situation. 

It's still going on today. I was in a videogame university (So people are already MORE pre-disposed to like score music since we're all nerds) but even there I was ashamed of it.

 

2 years ago in that university, we were all working on personal project in a small classroom, we were around 10 people, and we had a Hi-fi system in the classroom. We had a deal where we choose a music and put it on the Hi-fi, one per person and rotate. When it was my turn I put a track from Revenge of the Sith and I was mocked for "liking old things". They said it wasn't "real music" because "it has no beat". They ended up skipping my turn entirely and I cried lol.  Worst thing is I had to endure 9 shitty horrible pop song to get to my turn and I respected it because it was the deal but they didn't respect mine.

I've also been told I was depressed because I was listening to movie music and I needed more pop to get better lol. 

 

Even besides events like this, personally I have absolutely no one to talk to when it comes to music. Sure some people say "wow the music in this movie was very cool" but any in-depth discussion about leitmotiv or behind the scene is met with disapproval and disinterest. It's a bit sad but I'm grateful this forum exists.

Hey neat, I went to a video game university too. Thankfully my experience was more along the lines of discovering that I wasn't alone in listening to film and video game soundtracks, and I found some people who pretty much only did that too

I think if someone tried to say that ROTS was 'old and outdated' they would've been stoned, Star Wars was pretty ubiquitous around there

I definitely feel the disconnect in regards to having deeper conversations about music though, so many people just won't even bother because they think they need to know music theory to talk about music or explain why they like it which is absolute nonsense. Sure it helps you be more precise, but it doesn't prevent you at all, you have words - use them!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Yeah I did hide it, and harboured a lot of shame around it which really sucked. Happy to say I no longer care though, which is just as well as I'm a composer!

[Arpy 4,145]

People still don't understand why I listen to this 'noise' and as much as film scores have shifted somewhat in terms of becoming more popular, I still think it's considered by many people to be a novelty more than an actual genre of music one can listen to. It's sad. 

[Brando 1,855]

I work in a warehouse and there's a plethora of different noises everyday. I used to be shy about letting people know I listen to film scores, but by now they're used to it. Just today I was listening to Empire and after a strong use of the Imperial March, one guy who works close to me (who listens to a lot of alternative rock music so its always something emo/goth coming from his end) started whistling it and I laughed. Now I am absolutely terrified of people finding out some tracks have sound effects in them because they haven't been released yet and I've gone several years without having to explain that to anybody

[Groovygoth666 650]

I've always loved film music, but didn't really get into it properly till my twenties. Up until then I would tell people that rock/heavy metal was what I listened to (System of a Down being my favourite band). But after discovering speciality labels and their expansions around 2011/12 that's when I started to exclusively listen to film scores. At first I was a little embarrassed and would still say rock/heavy metal was what I listened to. But after a couple of years and having built up a collection of more scores than other music, I finally told people that I listened to film scores, which always gets a puzzled look so I have to specifically say film soundtracks "you know John Williams, Star Wars, Indiana Jones" with most people just saying "oh cool " and then moving on.

[Holko 9,499]

I kinda hid it in primary school when I started, except from one kindafriend. Never did in high school or at uni or work, it was either just accepted or rarely but even somewhat understood, by a friend who eclectically listens to everything or another who does know JW and listens to bits even if he doesn't actively follow. One uni friend says I listen to sound effects but being an ass is kinda his thing. A work colleague was intrigued when a package showed up, he knew who JW was and told me he sometimes listens to classical, JW must've wrote non-film stuff, I should show him something. I sent him Gathering of Friends... he responded with a loudening epictrash ostinato from Two Steps From Hell. So that was that.

[Drawgoon 100]

I try not to bring the subject up but when it does come up I either see that "you must be joking" face on the other person, or some jokes, sarcasm, etc, etc, you know the drill. It's been like this for as long as I can remember.

 

Unless people are told what this stuff is though, they almost always file it under the "classical music" category. Apparently most people perceive all classical music to be either Mozart's or Beethoven's too.

 

But I can understand what it is like to them. I get that feeling around serious classical music aficionados myself - especially those that are crazy about lengthy pieces for solo harpsichord.

[rough cut 1,714]

@Oswin Pond @Edmilson Jeez, people are such jerks.

[GerateWohl 4,326]

When I saw this thread again this morning, I thought, well, interesting how white males like me search for ways to work themselves up into something to also be able to feel a little discriminated from time to time.

But this here is not really an issue at all.

[JTN 2,002]

I never had any bad experience, but I never really cared about what others thought. I was always an outsider at school, listening to film music and classical music. I always thought it's their loss and never wasted another thought on it. And now film music is more popular than ever. I was simply ahead of my peers a few decades. Life eventually verified my taste and choice. 

[1977 1,743]

12 hours ago, Loert said:

But I've found that mentioning "film music" more often than not leads to utterly perplexed looks on people's faces.

 

[crocodile 7,983]

I have yet to come out to my friends. I haven't got the courage or strength like some of you guys...

 

Karol

[Damien F 1,742]

I was never embarrassed by being a score fan. Don't see why it would be embarrassing. But when people asked what type of music I listened to, I said orchestral music. If I said film soundtracks, people would assume song compilations, and 'film score' wasn't as widely understood as it is now 

[GerateWohl 4,326]

Interesting question is, which reaction is worse, when you tell someone that you listen to scores? Pop music listeners or classical music listeners. From my experience listeners of classical music have more predjudices against motion picture scores.

 

And someone wrote it already. It still can be cool, If you tell someone, that you listen to some arthouse chamber ethno whatever film music. But listening to blockbuster motion picture scores like Star Wars or Avengers will always be uncool. Forever.

[Gabriel Bezerra 300]

Looks like I've found my people .

 

Yes, I can count on my fingers the number of people who didn't give me a confused look, rejected or found it really weird. Only one activelly wanted to share earphones with me (Indy's theme to be precise), so when people wanted to know what I listen to, I evaded them or just paused the music when they were insistent. because I didn't want to explain myself.

 

One time on a english course (I'm from Brazil), the subject of music came up and I said that I listen to soundtracks, well they weren't even familiarized with the word, so I had to explain a lot, and they just stopped talking to me altogether.

 

Fast foward to 2021, and the group of friends I hang out the most finds out what exact kind of music I listen, because I shared on my phone's speakers for a War (the board game) match. but they were pretty tired frm it by the middle of the game .

 

So yeah, everytime I tried to share my passion, it wasn't warmly received, sometimes not at all received, so I just stopped trying. But I had it better than most people here, 'cause for some reason, between 2016-2017 I became the video producer for my school, and before that I had a few video school works that I always took as a opportunity to use scores, definetely made them better. And on my final day of that same english course, I did a "TED Talk" about scores, a really bare bones explanation to exactly two people, the teacher and a student who had the Incredibles score on her head because Incredibles II had just come out.

[1977 1,743]

[Bayesian 1,359]

Up through high school (mid/late 90's), I was regularly assumed to be gay because I listened to classical music, liked to read, didn't play sports, used big words, and wanted to become a landscape architect. Back then, of course, calling out a guy for being gay was considered an acceptable (i.e., not excessively vicious) form of othering or stigmatization. Similarly, I recall often getting the vibe, if not being told directly, that my musical interests were "gay"--in the way that word was once used to describe something uncool.

 

In college, fortunately, all that nonsense (largely) went away insofar as I was personally affected. But as a result of previous experiences, I never made any effort to share with anyone my love and appreciation of film music, which really took off after college. Girlfriends, close friends, my wife, and this forum were/are the only ones who ever knew or know of my passion for this genre. Funny thing is that, as others have already mentioned, film scores are cool now and you're much likelier to get a response of genuine interest today if you say you prefer that kind of music.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I don’t hide it, it just tends to come up last when revealing all my fanaticisms. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,585]

This thread is sad, and I associate with a lot of it. I've never hidden my passions, and have always embraced my unique tastes even when it led to me being picked on.

 

I think this thread needs a dose of happy, supplied by my friend Ron Burbella at the FSM forum of all places:

 

Quote

Sometimes things just magically fall into place - the timing, the situation, the people, and (of course) the music.
This happened for me tonight, when I was stopping for a particularly long, 3-way red light at the mall. Everybody making a left-hand turn got plenty of time to do so, while everyone else had to wait their turn.

On arriving at the light just as it turned red, I had popped the Deluxe Edition of ELF into the dash and cued up my favorite cue...John Debney's infectiously effervescent Main Title. I was in such a good mood that I couldn't help enthusiastically conducting with everything that I had (broadly smiling with arms, shoulders, and head swaying right and left in perfect tempo as I sang the "bump-bump" lyrics along with the CD).

Then I looked over to my left...and grimaced. There was a car with four teenage girls looking directly at this old nutso, who was having some type of seizure. They looked at me very quizzically with palms facing up and chins turned up - inquiring with their expressions "What the hell are you conducting?"

I quickly rolled down my window, cranked up the volume really high (I have a VERY powerful audio system in my car), as I held the ELF CD case out the window. They all applauded at recognizing the ELF disc in my hand and rolled down their windows to hear the music. We all whistled, swayed, sang, and conducted together for a good minute before the light finally changed. The we all gave a quick wave to each other and went our different ways.

What a nice moment! I had to knowingly laugh at Tim Greiving's opening caption for his fine liner notes:
"MUSIC FOR MAPLE SYRUP AND ORCHESTRA"

Ron Burbella

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=148214&forumID=1&archive=0

 

Yavar

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

I have been always been pretty musical. I starting learning the piano aged 5 (so long that I find it hard to imagine not being able to play it) as well as the violin and taught myself to play the trumpet (with the sole goal of playing the DS9 theme, which I managed... just). However, despite this, I never really developed a strong musical taste as a kid. I think I subconsciously enjoyed the music of films I saw, but never thought about listening to it on its own. I listened to random things like Scott Joplin (I could play a few of them off by heart) and other odds and ends. As part of my music listens I was obviously obliged to play plenty of classical music but, again, was never especially drawn to listening to it. I had absolutely no interest in pop music either.

 

However, as I have related many times here, I went to watch Jurassic Park and was blown away by Journey to the Island and so it became my first film score purchase. A friend (who was also a musician) had started dabbling in listening to film music, James Horner in particular and loved Braveheart. I got much more into early Horner, the Star Treks, Willow etc., which he didn't seem to care for. I started on Jerry with his Star Trek scores (buying TMP on Japanese import for an eye watering £26 in 1990something) and had the Intrada catalogue, highlighting all the stuff I wanted to get. I could never persuade my friend onto Jerry, I think he related more to Horner's emotional style more. Ironically, he went to uni to study music and lost interest in film music (it happens a lot... music uni students become the biggest anti-film score snobs once snooty tutors start making the usual old complaints about originality). I had another friend at school who liked film music too, but neither he or the other guy were quite as passionate about it as me.

 

I've always been a little bit eccentric and middle aged (I saw I've been 40 since I was 15, so now I'm about the right age for my personality) and people at school knew I liked film music once I got into it. I could play any number of film themes on the piano either from the piano music books (I have a Star Wars one signed by Anthony Daniels!) or often by ear. I used to be able to play the whole of the island fanfare section of Journey to the Island from memory (I tried the other day... got most of the way through, but had to look up the last bit in the music, but not bad after some number of years not playing it).

 

I'm quite happy to tell anyone who's interested about my interest. My partner is much more predisposed to musicals (such a stereotype ;-) but does get a lot of film music in his life and enjoys it a great deal. Even have him humming the themes from HTTYD from time to time (he must have heard those scores so many times now... just as well they are excellent) and even bought me the Back to the Future score from Omni for our anniversary.

 

I wrote too much again.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Quote

Did anyone else ever hide the fact you listened to film scores or were embarrassed to admit it to friends?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

I never specifically bring it up, but I'm not going to lie if someone asks what specific type of music I listen to. Although the replies are always quite ridiculous and can get annoying. 99% of the time they just get genuinely confused "like how do you mean?" So I have to go through the mundane task of explaining (to people who watch movies, and should know what *film* music is) "it's the music you hear in the background while watching movies". Usually that results in a reply of "oh" or "why?"

 

I remember having a conversation with one of my cousins' ex-girlfriends years ago, she asked what I like to do in my free time, and I said "I often like to compose music". Note that I specifically used the word 'compose' instead of 'write', hoping to avoid some confusion. So she enthusiastically replies, "oh, so you're a DJ?"

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

13 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

When I saw this thread again this morning, I thought, well, interesting how white males like me search for ways to work themselves up into something to also be able to feel a little discriminated from time to time.

But this here is not really an issue at all.

What in the ever-living fuck does race have to do with liking film music?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,890]

On 14/07/2022 at 5:44 PM, Oswin Pond said:

I've also been told I was depressed because I was listening to movie music and I needed more pop to get better lol. 

 

[Edmilson 7,384]

That's pretty common. People think you listen to those "sad violin music" because you're a melancholic person. They should take a look at the funny music thread.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Pop music these days is super depressive anyway, all pop artists sound like they’re on downers

[Ham Solo 18]

I kind of have a weird situation when it comes to this. I try to stay as current I can nowadays with the whole rap scene. I have actually come to like some it over the years. So, I mainly use rap as my cover nowadays when people ask me what my favorite kind of music is. I know for a fact that nobody my age listens and watches a movie like I and the rest of us do, to them it's just two and half hours of mindless entertainment with no real other beneficiating factor other than to kill time.   

 

I specifically remember fairly recently I was in class sitting at a table with a bunch of classmates, and our history teacher was playing music on her computer. I didn't really pay attention to it at the time, but when I got out of whatever game we were playing, I realized that a cover of the finale from Last Crusade was playing. I remember saying something about it, and I believe the responses from the table were either laughing or "ok?".  

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Pretty hard to hide....

 😅

 

10 hours ago, Bayesian said:

Up through high school (mid/late 90's), I was regularly assumed to be gay because I listened to classical music, liked to read, didn't play sports, used big words, and wanted to become a landscape architect. Back then, of course, calling out a guy for being gay was considered an acceptable (i.e., not excessively vicious) form of othering or stigmatization. Similarly, I recall often getting the vibe, if not being told directly, that my musical interests were "gay"--in the way that word was once used to describe something uncool.

 

In college, fortunately, all that nonsense (largely) went away insofar as I was personally affected. But as a result of previous experiences, I never made any effort to share with anyone my love and appreciation of film music, which really took off after college. Girlfriends, close friends, my wife, and this forum were/are the only ones who ever knew or know of my passion for this genre. Funny thing is that, as others have already mentioned, film scores are cool now and you're much likelier to get a response of genuine interest today if you say you prefer that kind of music.

Yeah!

I remember in high school trying to get my gf to listen to John Barry.

No wonder she broke up with me!

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

On 15/7/2022 at 4:28 AM, GerateWohl said:

When I saw this thread again this morning, I thought, well, interesting how white males like me search for ways to work themselves up into something to also be able to feel a little discriminated from time to time.

 

[GerateWohl 4,326]

9 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

What in the ever-living fuck does race have to do with liking film music?

Counterquestion: What does liking film music have to do with embarassment, confessing or coming out?

Actually, nobody cares.

It is all in our heads, I think.