Bilbo 3,709 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 This show keeps finding new lows… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,708 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 It will be a neat trick on Shore's part. Has there ever been a case in cinema history where a composer has been hired to write a score for the same material as his previous score, but is legally and artistically constrained from making it too similar? Shore's task will be creating a new theme that evokes the sound of Middle-Earth as audiences have come to expect, without too strongly resembling his previous work. It will be interesting to see how he threads this needle (though I have no doubt he's capable of doing so). And @Chen G.'s point about Bear sadly not being able to reference Shore's new theme is a salient one. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,649 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: It will be a neat trick on Shore's part. Has there ever been a case in cinema history where a composer has been hired to write a score for the same material as his previous score, but is legally and artistically constrained from making it too similar? Not exactly the same cinematic language, but Elfman on Big Top Pee-wee! Nick1Ø66 and Disco Stu 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 1 hour ago, mstrox said: Not exactly the same cinematic language, but Elfman on Big Top Pee-wee! Right, because Pee-wee's Big Adventure was Warner Bros, and Big Top was Paramount. It's a shame, and Big Top is certainly the lesser score (despite having its good moments, I don't really listen to it hardly ever). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said: Shore's task will be creating a new theme that evokes the sound of Middle-Earth as audiences have come to expect, without too strongly resembling his previous work. I actually don't think that would be much difficult. Nobody can copyright a perfect fifth or diminished seventh or an augemented second, or a descending halfstep or whatever - and yet those are the kind of musical building-blocks from which Shore creates his themes. The question is: what even is that main theme?! What material will we hear echoed in it? Will it be based on the Ring material? The Shire? The Gondor material? And although it would be sad not to hear Shore's theme in the underscore (at least in this season) there may be something to be said for the "cycle" starting with absolute music (The Rings of Power opening credits) and ending with absolute music (Bilbo's Song). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,649 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Stu said: Right, because Pee-wee's Big Adventure was Warner Bros, and Big Top was Paramount. It's a shame, and Big Top is certainly the lesser score (despite having its good moments, I don't really listen to it hardly ever). That love theme is really something, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 Some more of Bear McCreary's score: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926266868694655006/1009112646143967252/khazad-dum_theme.mp4 Monoverantus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 Sigh. Can't wait for the obligatory 'this sounds just like Shore's Moria music! Epic!' comments to pop up elsewhere. Now imagine what Shore Golden Age Khazad Dum material would have actually sounded like... Chen G., Bilbo and Evanus 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 I guess it’s a bit late to pull a Conrad Pope and work Shores theme into the series ala Kenobi? Wonder if it was a last minute/panic decision to get Shore in there. There was such a long wait before they officially announced his involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,679 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 48 minutes ago, WampaRat said: Wonder if it was a last minute/panic decision to get Shore in there. There was such a long wait before they officially announced his involvement. Given that he was mentioned quite a while ago and it's confirmed that he's only writing the main title theme, I'd say it's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. Had it been announced that he had written several themes and contributed music to each episode, then there would be a perfect conspiracy theory that he'd replaced some McCreary material. I really like that clip - some really nice choral work. Had it on loop a few times now. WampaRat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 9 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Given that he was mentioned quite a while ago and it's confirmed that he's only writing the main title theme, I'd say it's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. Had it been announced that he had written several themes and contributed music to each episode, then there would be a perfect conspiracy theory that he'd replaced some McCreary material. I really like that clip - some really nice choral work. Had it on loop a few times now. Good point. I just wonder why Bear wasnt able to incorporate it into the rest of the score? (Not in a tin foil hat type “wonder” way.) Perhaps he was already neck deep into scoring before they brought Shore in to do the main title? That is a nice piece of music in the clip. Very much in his “God of War” mode. I’m down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 Shore was contacted quite early on, so no. I guess its a combination of workload and secretiveness that led to the two composers work being compartmentalized from one another. WampaRat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark 312 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 Is Bear’s reply to this tweet confirmation that he did use original LOTR themes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 How do you figure? That's his Khazad-dum theme, not Shore's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark 312 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 Ah, I read the text as saying it was Shore’s theme, not “this is YOUR new theme”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoverantus 363 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 7 hours ago, Chen G. said: I actually don't think that would be much difficult. Nobody can copyright a perfect fifth or diminished seventh or an augemented second, or a descending halfstep or whatever - and yet those are the kind of musical building-blocks from which Shore creates his themes. Since Shore went to great lengths to make LotR sound ancient ("I want it to feel old. I want it to feel like somebody discovered the score in a vault somewhere"), it seems to me that the biggest hurdle a prequel to LotR has to surmount is to make something sound even older than LotR. Also, Khazad-dûm theme transcribed thanks to your video @Chen G. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 This youtube video has the cover art of the OST album, and 4 1/2 minutes of McCreary music after the first 1 1/2 minutes (which is Shore's theme) WampaRat, Max, Chen G. and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoverantus 363 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 I managed to copy it, how does one share video files on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by [Merlin] AudioSalad" What is [Merlin] AudioSalad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Monoverantus 363 Posted August 17, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2022 Let's see if this works. Password "mono" 0:00-1:26 Howard Shore's intro, probably a bit cut off 1:26-2:08 fragment of "Galadriel" 2:08-3:11 new music 3:11-3:50 music from Númenor spotlight, could be a Númenor-related theme 3:50-4:20 new music 4:20-4:41 Númenor theme from Númenor spotlight 4:41-5:05 Númenor-related theme again 5:05-5:25 Númenor theme and Númenor-related theme overlapping 5:25-5:47 the bit that gives me chills Max, WampaRat, Servant of Morgoth and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 So that's roughly about 1:20ish? Sounds about right for the opening titles, but one would hope Shore came up with a longer version as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 On the album, the Shore piece is about 1 minute 29 seconds. Also, track titles: Spoiler 01. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Main Title 02. Galadriel 03. Khazad-dûm 04. Nori Brandyfoot 05. The Stranger 06. Númenor 07. Sauron 08. Valinor 09. In the Beginning 10. Elrond Half-elven 11. Durin IV 12. Harfoot Life 13. Bronwyn and Arondir 14. Halbrand 15. The Boat 16. Sundering Seas 17. Nobody Goes Off Trail 18. Elendil and Isildur 19. White Leaves 21. Nolwa Mahtar 22. Nampat 23. A Plea to the Rocks 24. This Wandering Day 25. Scherzo for Violin and Swords 26. Sailing into the Dawn 27. For the Southlands 28. Cavalry 29.Water and Flame 30. In the Mines 31. The Veil of Smoke 32. The Mystics 33. Perilous Whisperings 34. The Broken Line 35. Wise One 36. True Creation Requires Sacrifice 37. Where the Shadows Lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 33 minutes ago, Chen G. said: On the album, the Shore piece is about 1 minute 29 seconds. Also, track titles: Hide contents 01. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Main Title 02. Galadriel 03. Khazad-dûm 04. Nori Brandyfoot 05. The Stranger 06. Númenor 07. Sauron 08. Valinor 09. In the Beginning 10. Elrond Half-elven 11. Durin IV 12. Harfoot Life 13. Bronwyn and Arondir 14. Halbrand 15. The Boat 16. Sundering Seas 17. Nobody Goes Off Trail 18. Elendil and Isildur 19. White Leaves 21. Nolwa Mahtar 22. Nampat 23. A Plea to the Rocks 24. This Wandering Day 25. Scherzo for Violin and Swords 26. Sailing into the Dawn 27. For the Southlands 28. Cavalry 29.Water and Flame 30. In the Mines 31. The Veil of Smoke 32. The Mystics 33. Perilous Whisperings 34. The Broken Line 35. Wise One 36. True Creation Requires Sacrifice 37. Where the Shadows Lie Seems like tracks 2-8 are probably McCreary’s new themes in their own little suites and 9 is where the score proper starts (?) Just a guess going by the track names. I like that “Williams-ish” approach to albums if that’s the case. Helps me recognize fragments of themes throughout the score quicker. Looks like a lengthy album! 2 hours ago, Monoverantus said: Let's see if this works. Password "mono" 0:00-1:26 Howard Shore's intro, probably a bit cut off 1:26-2:08 fragment of "Galadriel" 2:08-3:11 new music 3:11-3:50 music from Númenor spotlight, could be a Númenor-related theme 3:50-4:20 new music 4:20-4:41 Númenor theme from Númenor spotlight 4:41-5:05 Númenor-related theme again 5:05-5:25 Númenor theme and Númenor-related theme overlapping 5:25-5:47 the bit that gives me chills Thanks for this! I like how he’s skirting the edges of the “Weakness and Redemption” theme (while legally keeping his nose clean ) for what seems to be the main A theme. The B section(?) of Shores theme (the falling sort of melody line 0:22-0:34 and 1:12-1:20) reminds me a lot of this moment from “My Dear Frodo” (2:40-3:00) I’m sure it wasn’t intentional. Speaking of @Monoverantus, will you ever tackle The Hobbit scores the same way you did LOTR? I truly enjoyed those videos! Chen G. and Monoverantus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoverantus 363 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 56 minutes ago, WampaRat said: Seems like tracks 2-8 are probably McCreary’s new themes in their own little suites and 9 is where the score proper starts (?) Just a guess going by the track names. I like that “Williams-ish” approach to albums if that’s the case. Helps me recognize fragments of themes throughout the score quicker. Looks like a lengthy album! If you look at his God of War Album, it's the same idea. 57 minutes ago, WampaRat said: The B section(?) of Shores theme (the falling sort of melody line 0:22-0:34 and 1:12-1:20) reminds me a lot of this moment from “My Dear Frodo” (2:40-3:00) I don't know if Doug has revealed the official name, but that would be the Death and Loss theme (A-G-F-E, G-F-E-F) that he describes in the Hobbit scores, particularly in relation to Thorin's theme. The first four pitches are indeed the same. 1 hour ago, WampaRat said: Speaking of @Monoverantus, will you ever tackle The Hobbit scores the same way you did LOTR? I truly enjoyed those videos! Thanks! I might make one or two videos, but not a track-by-track like LotR. When Doug eventually gets to publish his Music of the Hobbit Films book, I don't want to infringe on his market. WampaRat and Chen G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanus 217 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Shore's piece is just 1:30 long?.. I need more! Servant of Morgoth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 58 minutes ago, Monoverantus said: 2 hours ago, WampaRat said: I don't know if Doug has revealed the official name, but that would be the Death and Loss theme (A-G-F-E, G-F-E-F) that he describes in the Hobbit scores, particularly in relation to Thorin's theme. The first four pitches are indeed the same. Oh very cool. I’ll need to keep an ear out for that motif more. Monoverantus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TolkienSS 405 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 I'm very late to the party, but this seems like a good place to say what I was thinking ever since details of the show and its music appeared. I don't know what is happening to film and television music, but can I be the first to say that my immediate response to Howard Shore's piece is dissapointment? I don't hear inspiration in it. What is it about this show that drags everything down and alienates everything, that not even Howard Shore sounds like Howard Shore? I mean it sounds like Howard Shore, but I don't hear even one inspired idea or hook theme. It brings, by nature of Howard Shore's ability, the weight and orchestration and gravitas of Lord Of The Rings, that Bear McCreary profoundly lacks. His music, as far as released, sounds horribly like a late 90s/early 2000s Playstation Soundtrack, and his choir, especially in Sauron, sounds like synth, even if it may not be synth. I expected Howard Shore to write a kind of "f you look what you didn't hire" theme, but this sounds like a "f me, why do I bother" theme. PokeDocMatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoverantus 363 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 hour ago, WampaRat said: Oh very cool. I’ll need to keep an ear out for that motif more. https://youtu.be/T09kqxGe2Is?t=4080 Found it, “Death and Parting” is what it’s called. Can be heard in these tracks, among others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjgwoD0aESs&list=PLQ4101-TB0mPMd7wO1frUP-u4Q_--kcs6&index=5&ab_channel=LordOfTheRingsFan001 0:00 Thorin's theme, followed at 0:18 by Death theme in strings https://youtu.be/YLTMPI9C-Ck?list=PLQ4101-TB0mPMd7wO1frUP-u4Q_--kcs6&t=239 4:00 Thorin, 4:19 Death and Parting https://youtu.be/zPitaB8S8l4?list=PLlxXZLBbAtRCc8nSvBPDro5IWJEiMSzFq&t=208 3:28 Thorin, 3:34 and 3:45 Death and Parting https://youtu.be/6XH4RRZJeow?list=PLQ4101-TB0mOL8Tp4s0RqU52e6BQKp-6v&t=38 0:38 Woodland Realm, 0:44 Death and Parting https://youtu.be/iR10M0S1HeA?list=PLQ4101-TB0mOL8Tp4s0RqU52e6BQKp-6v&t=110 1:50 Thorin, 2:04 Death and Parting Spoiler: Thorin dies WampaRat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 49 minutes ago, Monoverantus said: https://youtu.be/iR10M0S1HeA?list=PLQ4101-TB0mOL8Tp4s0RqU52e6BQKp-6v&t=110 1:50 Thorin, 2:04 Death and Parting That is one of the most ingenious pieces Howard ever wrote: it starts with the material associated with Thorin and ends with the material associated with Kili and Tauriel's love, both of which incorporate this figure, and so Shore uses it to bridge the two motives AND to reveal an element of tragedy that lay hidden in both of them. My understanding is this material develops into the theme associated with suffering in The Lord of the Rings (what Adams designates "Evil Times"). Monoverantus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoverantus 363 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 41 minutes ago, Chen G. said: My understanding is this material develops into the theme associated with suffering in The Lord of the Rings (what Adams designates "Evil Times"). I don't remember if they go into more depth than this, but sure, there are connections that can be made. Simply by nature of including the adjacent whole-step/half-steps (G-F-E-F) that tie together so many other themes (Evil Times, the Evil themes and accompaniments, Lothlórien, Arwen Revealed, Battlefield Heroism, Grey Havens) makes it easy to connect. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 17, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2022 Man o man. The amount of thought lovingly poured into every note in these Middle Earth scores. Just breathtaking. Times when I think Shore might simply be “noodling” or vamping before a sync point or big thematic statement. He’s actually foreshadowing, hinting, adding subtext or contrast with a simple chord or two notes - all related to his vast encyclopedia of themes. It’s humbling and exhausting all at the same time. Chen G., Edmilson and Monoverantus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 Quite. I think one of the aspects of the true, mature leitmotif technique that's often forgotten is that EVERYTHING IN THE SCORE IS LEITMOTIVIC. Not in the sense that every single new phrase of music gets counted as a new leitmotif, but that even those portions of the music that aren't repeated grow out of the motives and are coloured by them. WampaRat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 It’s particularly crazy with regard to the Hobbit Trilogy. Wasn’t there only a fraction of the time allowed for scoring those films as opposed to the LOTR trilogy? Talk about laying track in front of the train. And to still imbue each score with the same amount of depth and nuance. That’s a special kind of genius level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 I'm not aware that Shore was in a particular time crunch with the composition: the time crunch was more to do with fitting the recordings into Jackson's schedule. I also suspect Shore had been dreaming-up ideas for The Hobbit since he signed on to The Lord of the Rings: Doug always said that when they would talk about that little piece of music that plays over the Map of the Lonely mountain, all he got from Shore were enigmatic grins; and Lo and behold, Shore ended-up deriving the material associated with Thorin from that moment! I can't hear that piece without thinking of Thorin and Company! WampaRat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Well…I’m sure Bear’s score will be good. Haha. Guaranteed there’ll be several entries on his blog detailing his approach to the score which will shed light on his decisions. I always love reading those and it helps me appreciate his work more ( I LOVE his MotU score) I’m just needing to reset my brain as to the sound of “Middle Earth” A new voice/interpretation. New musical rules and clues. It’ll grow on me. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 I think if come season two Bear has the wherewithal to put Howard's new theme into the underscore, we might be in for something interesting. WampaRat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max 141 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Given the size of this production and how important the music is to the films, I’m surprised Amazon seems to be doing only one soundtrack release for the whole season rather than separate albums for each episode. I was hopeful that this would get multiple albums, considering The Wheel of Time (a fellow Amazon show) got four. Keeping my fingers crossed that we’ll get more later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,948 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 Its a 150 minute album, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Who 919 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Max said: Given the size of this production and how important the music is to the films, I’m surprised Amazon seems to be doing only one soundtrack release for the whole season rather than separate albums for each episode. I was hopeful that this would get multiple albums, considering The Wheel of Time (a fellow Amazon show) got four. Keeping my fingers crossed that we’ll get more later! I’m more surprised that the score is being released before the show starts airing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max 141 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Chen G. said: Its a 150 minute album, though... Ah, I hadn’t seen the runtime. 2.5 hours of music is nice, but across roughly 8 hours of episodes, that’s probably still quite a ways from “complete”, which I guess was my point: After investing so much in the show, I’m just surprised Amazon wouldn’t milk this for all they can. 3 hours ago, Mr. Who said: I’m more surprised that the score is being released before the show starts airing I’ve had the same thought! An interesting move on their part… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TolkienSS 405 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Is there a release date yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNHFan2000 2,957 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 I believe tomorrow on next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaaaackified 81 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 hour ago, TolkienSS said: Is there a release date yet? Imagine if Amazon makes this release an Amazon Music-exclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,679 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 8 hours ago, Max said: Given the size of this production and how important the music is to the films, I’m surprised Amazon seems to be doing only one soundtrack release for the whole season rather than separate albums for each episode. I was hopeful that this would get multiple albums, considering The Wheel of Time (a fellow Amazon show) got four. Keeping my fingers crossed that we’ll get more later! It's probably up to what McCreary wants out, not Amazon. Historically I don't think he's never done more than one album per season for his TV work and he does orientate his releases heavily towards listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Yes, he's one of the few composers of his generation that actually seems to thinks about his soundtrack albums as albums when producing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Who are the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Well, I don't know if there are any others off-hand. "One of the few" is just a phrase you use when you don't want to go out on the limb of stating unequivocally that there aren't any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Giacchino tends to combine cues together, edit portions of cues out for listening, include concert arrangements, and go a little non-chronological at times. So does that count, or does Bear do more than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNHFan2000 2,957 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 For most of his albums, McCreary has suites or theme suites on the album, next to the score. Outlander S3 & 4, God Of War, Rim Of The World, Godzilla, Animal Crackers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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