Rings of Power Bear McCreary's The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings of Power (2022)

[Bilbo 3,709]

This show keeps finding new lows…

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

It will be a neat trick on Shore's part. Has there ever been a case in cinema history where a composer has been hired to write a score for the same material as his previous score, but is legally and artistically constrained from making it too similar? Shore's task will be creating a new theme that evokes the sound of Middle-Earth as audiences have come to expect, without too strongly resembling his previous work. It will be interesting to see how he threads this needle (though I have no doubt he's capable of doing so). And @Chen G.'s point about Bear sadly not being able to reference Shore's new theme is a salient one.

 

 

[mstrox 6,637]

13 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

It will be a neat trick on Shore's part. Has there ever been a case in cinema history where a composer has been hired to write a score for the same material as his previous score, but is legally and artistically constrained from making it too similar? 

Not exactly the same cinematic language, but Elfman on Big Top Pee-wee!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Not exactly the same cinematic language, but Elfman on Big Top Pee-wee!

 

Right, because Pee-wee's Big Adventure was Warner Bros, and Big Top was Paramount.  It's a shame, and Big Top is certainly the lesser score (despite having its good moments, I don't really listen to it hardly ever).

[Chen G. 3,940]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Shore's task will be creating a new theme that evokes the sound of Middle-Earth as audiences have come to expect, without too strongly resembling his previous work.

 

I actually don't think that would be much difficult. Nobody can copyright a perfect fifth or diminished seventh or an augemented second, or a descending halfstep or whatever - and yet those are the kind of musical building-blocks from which Shore creates his themes.

 

The question is: what even is that main theme?! What material will we hear echoed in it? Will it be based on the Ring material? The Shire? The Gondor material?

 

And although it would be sad not to hear Shore's theme in the underscore (at least in this season) there may be something to be said for the "cycle" starting with absolute music (The Rings of Power opening credits) and ending with absolute music (Bilbo's Song).

[mstrox 6,637]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

 

Right, because Pee-wee's Big Adventure was Warner Bros, and Big Top was Paramount.  It's a shame, and Big Top is certainly the lesser score (despite having its good moments, I don't really listen to it hardly ever).

That love theme is really something, though.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Some more of Bear McCreary's score:

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926266868694655006/1009112646143967252/khazad-dum_theme.mp4

[Barnald 365]

Sigh. Can't wait for the obligatory 'this sounds just like Shore's Moria music! Epic!' comments to pop up elsewhere.

 

Now imagine what Shore Golden Age Khazad Dum material would have actually sounded like...

[WampaRat 1,105]

I guess it’s a bit late to pull a Conrad Pope and work Shores theme into the series ala Kenobi? 
 

Wonder if it was a last minute/panic decision to get Shore in there. There was such a long wait before they officially announced his involvement. 

[Richard Penna 3,664]

48 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

Wonder if it was a last minute/panic decision to get Shore in there. There was such a long wait before they officially announced his involvement. 

 

Given that he was mentioned quite a while ago and it's confirmed that he's only writing the main title theme, I'd say it's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. Had it been announced that he had written several themes and contributed music to each episode, then there would be a perfect conspiracy theory that he'd replaced some McCreary material.

 

I really like that clip - some really nice choral work. Had it on loop a few times now.

[WampaRat 1,105]

9 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Given that he was mentioned quite a while ago and it's confirmed that he's only writing the main title theme, I'd say it's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. Had it been announced that he had written several themes and contributed music to each episode, then there would be a perfect conspiracy theory that he'd replaced some McCreary material.

 

I really like that clip - some really nice choral work. Had it on loop a few times now.

Good point.

 

I just wonder why Bear wasnt able to incorporate it into the rest of the score? (Not in a tin foil hat type “wonder” way.) Perhaps he was already neck deep into scoring before they brought Shore in to do the main title? 
 

That is a nice piece of music in the clip. Very much in his “God of War” mode. I’m down.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Shore was contacted quite early on, so no. I guess its a combination of workload and secretiveness that led to the two composers work being compartmentalized from one another.

[Stark 306]

Is Bear’s reply to this tweet confirmation that he did use original LOTR themes? 

[Jay 37,249]

How do you figure?  That's his Khazad-dum theme, not Shore's

[Stark 306]

Ah, I read the text as saying it was Shore’s theme, not “this is YOUR new theme”.

[Monoverantus 363]

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I actually don't think that would be much difficult. Nobody can copyright a perfect fifth or diminished seventh or an augemented second, or a descending halfstep or whatever - and yet those are the kind of musical building-blocks from which Shore creates his themes.

Since Shore went to great lengths to make LotR sound ancient ("I want it to feel old. I want it to feel like somebody discovered the score in a vault somewhere"), it seems to me that the biggest hurdle a prequel to LotR has to surmount is to make something sound even older than LotR.

 

Also, Khazad-dûm theme transcribed thanks to your video @Chen G.

[Jay 37,249]

This youtube video has the cover art of the OST album, and 4 1/2 minutes of McCreary music after the first 1 1/2 minutes (which is Shore's theme)

 

 

[Monoverantus 363]

I managed to copy it, how does one share video files on here?

[Jay 37,249]

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by [Merlin] AudioSalad"

 

What is [Merlin] AudioSalad?

[Monoverantus 363]

Let's see if this works. Password "mono"

0:00-1:26 Howard Shore's intro, probably a bit cut off

1:26-2:08 fragment of "Galadriel"

2:08-3:11 new music

3:11-3:50 music from Númenor spotlight, could be a Númenor-related theme

3:50-4:20 new music

4:20-4:41 Númenor theme from Númenor spotlight

4:41-5:05 Númenor-related theme again

5:05-5:25 Númenor theme and Númenor-related theme overlapping

5:25-5:47 the bit that gives me chills

 

[Barnald 365]

So that's roughly about 1:20ish? Sounds about right for the opening titles, but one would hope Shore came up with a longer version as well.

[Chen G. 3,940]

On the album, the Shore piece is about 1 minute 29 seconds.

 

Also, track titles: 

 

Spoiler

01. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Main Title

02. Galadriel

03. Khazad-dûm

04. Nori Brandyfoot

05. The Stranger

06. Númenor

07. Sauron

08. Valinor

09. In the Beginning

10. Elrond Half-elven

11. Durin IV

12. Harfoot Life

13. Bronwyn and Arondir

14. Halbrand

15. The Boat

16. Sundering Seas

17. Nobody Goes Off Trail

18. Elendil and Isildur

19. White Leaves

21. Nolwa Mahtar

22. Nampat

23. A Plea to the Rocks

24. This Wandering Day

25. Scherzo for Violin and Swords

26. Sailing into the Dawn

27. For the Southlands

28. Cavalry

29.Water and Flame

30. In the Mines

31. The Veil of Smoke

32. The Mystics

33. Perilous Whisperings

34. The Broken Line

35. Wise One

36. True Creation Requires Sacrifice

37. Where the Shadows Lie

 

[WampaRat 1,105]

33 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

On the album, the Shore piece is about 1 minute 29 seconds.

 

Also, track titles: 

 

  Hide contents

01. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Main Title

02. Galadriel

03. Khazad-dûm

04. Nori Brandyfoot

05. The Stranger

06. Númenor

07. Sauron

08. Valinor

09. In the Beginning

10. Elrond Half-elven

11. Durin IV

12. Harfoot Life

13. Bronwyn and Arondir

14. Halbrand

15. The Boat

16. Sundering Seas

17. Nobody Goes Off Trail

18. Elendil and Isildur

19. White Leaves

21. Nolwa Mahtar

22. Nampat

23. A Plea to the Rocks

24. This Wandering Day

25. Scherzo for Violin and Swords

26. Sailing into the Dawn

27. For the Southlands

28. Cavalry

29.Water and Flame

30. In the Mines

31. The Veil of Smoke

32. The Mystics

33. Perilous Whisperings

34. The Broken Line

35. Wise One

36. True Creation Requires Sacrifice

37. Where the Shadows Lie

 

Seems like tracks 2-8 are probably McCreary’s new themes in their own little suites and 9 is where the score proper starts (?) Just a guess going by the track names. I like that “Williams-ish” approach to albums if that’s the case. Helps me recognize fragments of themes throughout the score quicker. Looks like a lengthy album! 

2 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

Let's see if this works. Password "mono"

0:00-1:26 Howard Shore's intro, probably a bit cut off

1:26-2:08 fragment of "Galadriel"

2:08-3:11 new music

3:11-3:50 music from Númenor spotlight, could be a Númenor-related theme

3:50-4:20 new music

4:20-4:41 Númenor theme from Númenor spotlight

4:41-5:05 Númenor-related theme again

5:05-5:25 Númenor theme and Númenor-related theme overlapping

5:25-5:47 the bit that gives me chills

 

 

Thanks for this!

 

I like how he’s skirting the edges of the “Weakness and Redemption” theme (while legally keeping his nose clean  ) for what seems to be the main A theme.

 

The B section(?) of Shores theme (the falling sort of melody line 0:22-0:34 and 1:12-1:20) reminds me a lot of this moment from “My Dear Frodo”

(2:40-3:00) I’m sure it wasn’t intentional. 
 

Speaking of @Monoverantus, will you ever tackle The Hobbit scores the same way you did LOTR? I truly enjoyed those videos!

[Monoverantus 363]

56 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

Seems like tracks 2-8 are probably McCreary’s new themes in their own little suites and 9 is where the score proper starts (?) Just a guess going by the track names. I like that “Williams-ish” approach to albums if that’s the case. Helps me recognize fragments of themes throughout the score quicker. Looks like a lengthy album! 

If you look at his God of War Album, it's the same idea.

 

57 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

The B section(?) of Shores theme (the falling sort of melody line 0:22-0:34 and 1:12-1:20) reminds me a lot of this moment from “My Dear Frodo” (2:40-3:00)

I don't know if Doug has revealed the official name, but that would be the Death and Loss theme (A-G-F-E, G-F-E-F) that he describes in the Hobbit scores, particularly in relation to Thorin's theme. The first four pitches are indeed the same.

1 hour ago, WampaRat said:

Speaking of @Monoverantus, will you ever tackle The Hobbit scores the same way you did LOTR? I truly enjoyed those videos!

Thanks! I might make one or two videos, but not a track-by-track like LotR. When Doug eventually gets to publish his Music of the Hobbit Films book, I don't want to infringe on his market.

[Evanus 216]

Shore's piece is just 1:30 long?..

 

I need more!

[WampaRat 1,105]

58 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

2 hours ago, WampaRat said:

 

I don't know if Doug has revealed the official name, but that would be the Death and Loss theme (A-G-F-E, G-F-E-F) that he describes in the Hobbit scores, particularly in relation to Thorin's theme. The first four pitches are indeed the same.

Oh very cool. I’ll need to keep an ear out for that motif more.

[TolkienSS 405]

I'm very late to the party, but this seems like a good place to say what I was thinking ever since details of the show and its music appeared.

 

I don't know what is happening to film and television music, but can I be the first to say that my immediate response to Howard Shore's piece is dissapointment? I don't hear inspiration in it.

 

What is it about this show that drags everything down and alienates everything, that not even Howard Shore sounds like Howard Shore? 

I mean it sounds like Howard Shore, but I don't hear even one inspired idea or hook theme.

 

It brings, by nature of Howard Shore's ability, the weight and orchestration and gravitas of Lord Of The Rings, that Bear McCreary profoundly lacks.

His music, as far as released, sounds horribly like a late 90s/early 2000s Playstation Soundtrack, and his choir, especially in Sauron, sounds like synth, even if it may not be synth.

 

I expected Howard Shore to write a kind of "f you look what you didn't hire" theme, but this sounds like a "f me, why do I bother" theme.

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, WampaRat said:

Oh very cool. I’ll need to keep an ear out for that motif more.

https://youtu.be/T09kqxGe2Is?t=4080

Found it, “Death and Parting” is what it’s called.

Can be heard in these tracks, among others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjgwoD0aESs&list=PLQ4101-TB0mPMd7wO1frUP-u4Q_--kcs6&index=5&ab_channel=LordOfTheRingsFan001

0:00 Thorin's theme, followed at 0:18 by Death theme in strings

 

https://youtu.be/YLTMPI9C-Ck?list=PLQ4101-TB0mPMd7wO1frUP-u4Q_--kcs6&t=239

4:00 Thorin, 4:19 Death and Parting

 

https://youtu.be/zPitaB8S8l4?list=PLlxXZLBbAtRCc8nSvBPDro5IWJEiMSzFq&t=208

3:28 Thorin, 3:34 and 3:45 Death and Parting

 

https://youtu.be/6XH4RRZJeow?list=PLQ4101-TB0mOL8Tp4s0RqU52e6BQKp-6v&t=38

0:38 Woodland Realm, 0:44 Death and Parting

 

https://youtu.be/iR10M0S1HeA?list=PLQ4101-TB0mOL8Tp4s0RqU52e6BQKp-6v&t=110

1:50 Thorin, 2:04 Death and Parting

 

Spoiler: Thorin dies

[Chen G. 3,940]

49 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

https://youtu.be/iR10M0S1HeA?list=PLQ4101-TB0mOL8Tp4s0RqU52e6BQKp-6v&t=110

1:50 Thorin, 2:04 Death and Parting

 

That is one of the most ingenious pieces Howard ever wrote: it starts with the material associated with Thorin and ends with the material associated with Kili and Tauriel's love, both of which incorporate this figure, and so Shore uses it to bridge the two motives AND to reveal an element of tragedy that lay hidden in both of them.

 

My understanding is this material develops into the theme associated with suffering in The Lord of the Rings (what Adams designates "Evil Times").

[Monoverantus 363]

41 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

My understanding is this material develops into the theme associated with suffering in The Lord of the Rings (what Adams designates "Evil Times").

I don't remember if they go into more depth than this, but sure, there are connections that can be made. Simply by nature of including the adjacent whole-step/half-steps (G-F-E-F) that tie together so many other themes (Evil Times, the Evil themes and accompaniments, Lothlórien, Arwen Revealed, Battlefield Heroism, Grey Havens) makes it easy to connect.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Man o man. The amount of thought lovingly poured into every note in these Middle Earth scores. Just breathtaking. Times when I think Shore might simply be “noodling” or vamping before a sync point or big thematic statement. He’s actually foreshadowing, hinting, adding subtext or contrast with a simple chord or two notes - all related to his vast encyclopedia of themes. It’s humbling and exhausting all at the same time. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

Quite. I think one of the aspects of the true, mature leitmotif technique that's often forgotten is that EVERYTHING IN THE SCORE IS LEITMOTIVIC. Not in the sense that every single new phrase of music gets counted as a new leitmotif, but that even those portions of the music that aren't repeated grow out of the motives and are coloured by them.

[WampaRat 1,105]

It’s particularly crazy with regard to the Hobbit Trilogy. Wasn’t there only a fraction of the time allowed for scoring those films as opposed to the LOTR trilogy? Talk about laying track in front of the train. And to still imbue each score with the same amount of depth and nuance. That’s a special kind of genius level. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

I'm not aware that Shore was in a particular time crunch with the composition: the time crunch was more to do with fitting the recordings into Jackson's schedule.

 

I also suspect Shore had been dreaming-up ideas for The Hobbit since he signed on to The Lord of the Rings: Doug always said that when they would talk about that little piece of music that plays over the Map of the Lonely mountain, all he got from Shore were enigmatic grins; and Lo and behold, Shore ended-up deriving the material associated with Thorin from that moment! I can't hear that piece without thinking of Thorin and Company!

[WampaRat 1,105]

Well…I’m sure Bear’s score will be good.
 

Haha. Guaranteed there’ll be several entries on his blog detailing his approach to the score which will shed light on his decisions. I always love reading those and it helps me appreciate his work more ( I LOVE his MotU score) I’m just needing to reset my brain as to the sound of “Middle Earth” A new voice/interpretation. New musical rules and clues. It’ll grow on me. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

I think if come season two Bear has the wherewithal to put Howard's new theme into the underscore, we might be in for something interesting.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Fingers crossed!

[Max 141]

Given the size of this production and how important the music is to the films, I’m surprised Amazon seems to be doing only one soundtrack release for the whole season rather than separate albums for each episode. I was hopeful that this would get multiple albums, considering The Wheel of Time (a fellow Amazon show) got four. Keeping my fingers crossed that we’ll get more later!

[Chen G. 3,940]

Its a 150 minute album, though...

[Mr. Who 919]

3 hours ago, Max said:

Given the size of this production and how important the music is to the films, I’m surprised Amazon seems to be doing only one soundtrack release for the whole season rather than separate albums for each episode. I was hopeful that this would get multiple albums, considering The Wheel of Time (a fellow Amazon show) got four. Keeping my fingers crossed that we’ll get more later!

I’m more surprised that the score is being released before the show starts airing

[Max 141]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its a 150 minute album, though...

Ah, I hadn’t seen the runtime. 2.5 hours of music is nice, but across roughly 8 hours of episodes, that’s probably still quite a ways from “complete”, which I guess was my point: After investing so much in the show, I’m just surprised Amazon wouldn’t milk this for all they can.

 

3 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

I’m more surprised that the score is being released before the show starts airing

I’ve had the same thought! An interesting move on their part…

[TolkienSS 405]

Is there a release date yet?

[JNHFan2000 2,938]

I believe tomorrow on next week

[Jaaaackified 81]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

Is there a release date yet?

 

Imagine if Amazon makes this release an Amazon Music-exclusive

[Richard Penna 3,664]

8 hours ago, Max said:

Given the size of this production and how important the music is to the films, I’m surprised Amazon seems to be doing only one soundtrack release for the whole season rather than separate albums for each episode. I was hopeful that this would get multiple albums, considering The Wheel of Time (a fellow Amazon show) got four. Keeping my fingers crossed that we’ll get more later!

 

It's probably up to what McCreary wants out, not Amazon.

 

Historically I don't think he's never done more than one album per season for his TV work and he does orientate his releases heavily towards listening.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yes, he's one of the few composers of his generation that actually seems to thinks about his soundtrack albums as albums when producing them.

[Jay 37,249]

Who are the others?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Well, I don't know if there are any others off-hand.  "One of the few" is just a phrase you use when you don't want to go out on the limb of stating unequivocally that there aren't any others.

[Jay 37,249]

Giacchino tends to combine cues together, edit portions of cues out for listening, include concert arrangements, and go a little non-chronological at times.  So does that count, or does Bear do more than that?

[JNHFan2000 2,938]

For most of his albums, McCreary has suites or theme suites on the album, next to the score.

 

Outlander S3 & 4,  God Of War, Rim Of The World, Godzilla, Animal Crackers