Rings of Power Bear McCreary's The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings of Power (2022)

[TolkienSS 405]

On 20/08/2022 at 11:31 PM, Chen G. said:

Its a very nice score, if one manages (and not all would succeed) to divorce oneself from the Howard Shore sound.

 

Except all the Harfoot stuff: that stuff is so saccharine, the album should not be administrated to diabetics!

 

I can't listen to the Harfoot tracks. It feels immediately like I'm entering a potion store in an RPG.

Or Kokiri Forest.

[Gollum Cat 24]

On 22/08/2022 at 11:40 AM, blondheim said:

 You seem to agree with some of the points I raised. So I am curious which sections are the ones you find genuinely beautiful? If you found a way in, I would love to know what did it for you

Honestly, repeated listens. My first go-round was on my speakers which while they are good speakers, I am hard of hearing and so often listening to a score on my AirPods actually bears more fruit than my nice speakers. I was able to pick up a lot more nuance that way.

 

Then once I realized the first major chunk was suites, and that actual score did kick in, that changed how I listened to the music.

 

But other than that, just listening to it over and over, getting over the (very expected) disappointment that this wasn't Shore all over again. Once I got past that and started to think of it in its own right, I noticed certain things. Themes grew on me. I picked up on bits of orchestration or writing that I really enjoyed. Some things sound a bit too modern (beginning of "Find the Light"), other parts sound too overproduced (the Megan Richards' and Sophie Nomvete' parts), the choir is too small (Nolwa Mahtar), other parts are downright bizarre (folksy hobbit-stumping for Durin), but . . .

 

The solo harp at the beginning of "The Promised King" is really lovely. "Númenor" is honestly kinda cool. So much of the choral work - especially in "Valinor," "In the Beginning," "A Plea to the Rocks," "Find the Light" - has such a incredible choral religious that Shore touched on (to my knowledge) only once, in "The Great River" (FOTR OST). "In the Beginning" is a solid musical journey - I played it for my wife and she could immediately visualize the entire story in her head based off the music (she's reading through the Silmarillion right now). The strings and pennywhistle work in "Nobody Goes Off Trail" and "Wise One" is just really beautiful and fresh. "Water and Flame" sounds so similar to the massive 17-minute musical passage that is the end of Desolation of Smaug / beginning of Battle of the Five Armies (I once edited together those lengthy passages, so I know - it is amazing). The opening of "Sundering Seas" is just massive. The wall of brass in "The Boat" is very reminiscent of the brass in Return of the King. "Where the Shadows Lie" is slow and contemplative and reminds me of "Gollum's Song."

 

I'm curious to see what will come of the weekly score releases.

 

I'd also really love to hear whatever version includes the bit from 0:13–0:25:

 

 

[blondheim 1,157]

3 hours ago, Gollum Cat said:

Honestly, repeated listens. My first go-round was on my speakers which while they are good speakers, I am hard of hearing and so often listening to a score on my AirPods actually bears more fruit than my nice speakers. I was able to pick up a lot more nuance that way.

 

Then once I realized the first major chunk was suites, and that actual score did kick in, that changed how I listened to the music.

 

But other than that, just listening to it over and over, getting over the (very expected) disappointment that this wasn't Shore all over again. Once I got past that and started to think of it in its own right, I noticed certain things. Themes grew on me. I picked up on bits of orchestration or writing that I really enjoyed. Some things sound a bit too modern (beginning of "Find the Light"), other parts sound too overproduced (the Megan Richards' and Sophie Nomvete' parts), the choir is too small (Nolwa Mahtar), other parts are downright bizarre (folksy hobbit-stumping for Durin), but . . .

 

The solo harp at the beginning of "The Promised King" is really lovely. "Númenor" is honestly kinda cool. So much of the choral work - especially in "Valinor," "In the Beginning," "A Plea to the Rocks," "Find the Light" - has such a incredible choral religious that Shore touched on (to my knowledge) only once, in "The Great River" (FOTR OST). "In the Beginning" is a solid musical journey - I played it for my wife and she could immediately visualize the entire story in her head based off the music (she's reading through the Silmarillion right now). The strings and pennywhistle work in "Nobody Goes Off Trail" and "Wise One" is just really beautiful and fresh. "Water and Flame" sounds so similar to the massive 17-minute musical passage that is the end of Desolation of Smaug / beginning of Battle of the Five Armies (I once edited together those lengthy passages, so I know - it is amazing). The opening of "Sundering Seas" is just massive. The wall of bass in "The Boat" is very reminiscent of the brass in Return of the King. "Where the Shadows Lie" is slow and contemplative and reminds me of "Gollum's Song."

 

I'm curious to see what will come of the weekly score releases.

 

I'd also really love to hear whatever version includes the bit from 0:13–0:25:

 

 

 Thanks for the response. If repeated listening is the only way, I’m not sure if I have the strength to listen to this anymore than the times I have already. I hope it’s placement in the show helps. Galadriel’s theme does nothing for me and In the Beginning is basically just variations on her theme with mixed choir. I’ve already discussed my dislike for Water and Flame. I will check out some of the other moments you mentioned after a few days and see if the sharpness of my disappointment dulls a bit.

 

Overall though, as of today, I still just hear a massive amount of music that doesn’t really go anywhere. I don’t want to invoke Gordy Haab here because what he does sounds very much like Williams but without any real memorability, while Bear sounds very much like Bear. I don’t know if a Gordy Haab approach would have worked either, for those thinking I just wanted someone to ape Shore. I just wanted something else, I guess. I don’t know what the answer would be.

 

but then it occurs to me that I don’t have to have the answer. If I don’t like it, I don’t like it and that’s all there is to it. Like Incanus put, maybe I’m allergic to modern scoring techniques. I have been listening to more opera and classical music all the time.

 

I just so miss the feeling of Brucknerian density that Shore had. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

If repeated listening is the only way, I’m not sure if I have the strength to listen to this anymore than the times I have already.

 

It's...OK.  Obviously it's not Shore, but I don't hate it. There's nothing offensive about it, it's a perfectly competent and thoughtful score, which I'd expect from Bear.

 

But I've listened to it several times to give it a chance, and see if I can connect with it, and it's just not there for me, and I doubt it will be something I'll be revisiting often.

 

 

[Richard Penna 3,679]

I've been listening a lot over the last few days, and I'm definitely not going to pretend that it's an uninterrupted 2.5 hour masterpiece. For every handful of tracks that I love, there will be one that just sort of drifts by, but that was the case with Shore's music too - no score is perfect.

 

I enjoy this more than the Hobbit scores, but mainly because I like McCreary's themes more than Shore's Hobbit themes, and I generally feel his work on Hobbit was generally less inspired.

 

What does become apparent on repeated listens though is how interwoven the themes are, a bit like Powell's Hidden World - there seem to be very few moments that are not quoting a theme. It feels that the Numenor and Galadriel themes take the most prominence which is good as I love both.

 

Also interesting will be how this sustains through an entire season of music and we hear music that wasn't selected for this album.

 

Anyone else spotted the (I'm sure unintentional) Spider-Man reference in The Veil of Smoke ?  

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

It's...OK.  Obviously it's not Shore, but I don't hate it. There's nothing offensive about it, it's a perfectly competent and thoughtful score, which I'd expect from Bear.

 

But I've listened to it several times to give it a chance, and see if I can connect with it, and it's just not there for me, and I doubt it will be something I'll be revisiting often.

 

 

This is just a personal thing but I would rather hear a spectacular failure then something average. My friends and family and I bicker about this all the time: something about things that live in the three-star area really bother me. Maybe it’s because I study music a lot and hearing something less than average at least gives me something to do mentally. Idk honestly. It is like this with films too. I hate three-star films but can totally rewatch terrible ones sometimes. I recognize this is not everyone.

 

This leads to a major pet peeve of mine: when three-star anythings get labelled as four or five-star somethings. When people praise things I think of as one-star or two-star, I think “That’s just the universal balancing things out.” But when three-star things get praised, it really irks me. I find most Marvel movies three-star but the world disagrees with me. They would rather take an average ride than a terrible, but interesting one. I found the newest The Batman film to be three-star or so but the world disagrees with me there as well. It looks like this is going to fall in that category, I guess, of things the world seems to absolutely love and praise en masse while I endlessly ponder why.

 

You really have to like Galadriel’s theme to like this album because it is everywhere. That is another problem. I just don’t.

 

 

[Richard Penna 3,679]

11 minutes ago, blondheim said:

This leads to a major pet peeve of mine: when three-star anythings get labelled as four or five-star somethings.

 

This is a big reason why I hate 'ratings' to begin with  I see no need to overuse labels like this because really all they're achieving is providing a consensus for how good something is, and alienating those who don't agree.

 

Ferocious arguments are started when one person declares that a score is 5 stars, and another says only 3 stars, when actually... who gives a shit? If you like the score, you're not going to enjoy it less because someone else says that it's not quite their thing. In the same way, I'm not going to suddenly love Star Wars whenever I read someone pointing out some thematic detail.

 

As Clemmenson said in a recent interview, his role as a reviewer has massively changed over years because were once people had to rely on reviews to decide whether to order a soundtrack CD by snail mail, now everyone can make their own mind up in a few moments by streaming it. I mean, he gave a very lukewarm review for my #1 grail (Dante's Peak) when Varese did their deluxe edition, and I don't agree with his analysis, but why should that upset me?

[blondheim 1,157]

The only reason people loving average things annoys me is because other people will follow in their footsteps and then make more average things I don’t like. That’s all.

 

This is being called the greatest television score ever already or score of the year, which I think is wildly disproportionate to its quality level. I wish more people said things like “Yeah it’s pretty average, construction-wise but I like it” instead of praising it so much.

[heidl 358]

I'm not enough of a LotR, Shore or Bear fan to allow me to give an opinion on the score. But I read through the thread and as far as I understand it, Amazon doesn't have the rights to use existing LotR material, whether it's set/prop designs or, well, Howard Shore's music, right? 

 

Why in God's name didn't they buy those rights?

Did they not want to or were they not allowed to?

It can't be because of money, can it?

 

IMHO Shore's music could have been, even should have been, the most important connector between the films and the series.

[JNHFan2000 2,957]

But the average comment you make about the score is your opinion.

 

So it makes sense that a lot of people feel differently about it.

And what you might feel are average scores that keep getting made, it obviously something that a lot of people like.

 

That's just the way it is. I don't like a lot of drone scores etc that keep getting made, but it doesn't bother me, because I don't listen to them. I'll let other people enjoy that and go back to things I do like/love.

[Holko 9,516]

Well yesterday I finally listened to this, and... mostly loving it!

[Chen G. 3,948]

On 24/08/2022 at 5:53 PM, heidl said:

Amazon doesn't have the rights to use existing LotR material, whether it's set/prop designs or, well, Howard Shore's music, right? 

 

Its unclear: some people who have seen the first two episodes (of whom I'm incredibly jealous, not for the footage for not having a chance to meet some of my colleagues who went) claim that we see Fell beasts straight out of the movies and a quick image of Sauron in his iconic armour.

[TolkienSS 405]

Well, there is the possibility that John Howe has rights to things he designed. So they are able to use some of the Jackson movies' designs.

[Max 141]

Bear just posted a Twitter thread about his past scores and mentioned there are about 7 hours of currently unreleased score from TRoP.

 

I wonder if the “currently unreleased” implies that it’ll be “eventually released”… I’m curious to see how much of those 7 hours gets released by the end of the season.

[TolkienSS 405]

Excuse my ignorance, but he learned how to write orchestral music while already working on big shows?

[Jay 37,336]

18 minutes ago, Max said:

I wonder if the “currently unreleased” implies that it’ll be “eventually released”…

 

It's already been confirmed that each episode will get its own album release.

[blondheim 1,157]

With the biggest budget a show has ever had apparently, with practically ten hours of scoring required, you would think this would be the time to pay someone like Shore to do it right. 

[TolkienSS 405]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

With the biggest budget a show has ever had apparently, with practically ten hours of scoring required, you would think this would be the time to pay someone like Shore to do it right. 

 

With ten hours of scoring required, you would think there is time for a proven 3-time Academy Award winner to contribute more than 90 seconds of music.

[Max 141]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

It's already been confirmed that each episode will get its own album release.

 

I know, hence my second sentence. I should have been clearer — since Bear seemed to refer to all 7 hours of score as “currently unreleased”, I was just wondering if that meant we would have the complete score by the end of the season (i.e., once all the episode albums are out) or if there would still be some score missing (like how the individual episode albums for season one of The Mandalorian still didn’t have everything). That’s all.

[Jay 37,336]

Ohhhh

[Gollum Cat 24]

Any ideas when the score for Episodes 1 & 2 will drop? I guess probably Friday or Saturday . . . ?

[Jay 37,336]

Nobody here would have any idea: Amazon hasn't announced anything yet.

[enderdrag64 624]

6 hours ago, Max said:

Bear just posted a Twitter thread about his past scores and mentioned there are about 7 hours of currently unreleased score from TRoP.

 

I wonder if the “currently unreleased” implies that it’ll be “eventually released”… I’m curious to see how much of those 7 hours gets released by the end of the season.

That would be an amazing precedent if they released the complete score to the series as it comes out

[Jay 37,336]

That's what they already said would happen.

[Richard Penna 3,679]

I wonder if the amount of money they've invested in the show has made them more eager than usual to capitalise on additional revenue streams, and releasing an entire album per episode is one way to do that.

 

I still find it hard to believe that the results of this will be the complete show score legitimately released (as opposed to merely a very comprehensive album per episode) but we'll find out soon!

[Jay 37,336]

I hope these albums sell really well, and future shows get more weekly episodic albums

[MedigoScan 324]

Like Mandalorian I worry this will be an experiment they dont repeat in the next season.

 

(does this give me hope for an eventual Hobbit complete release? Slightly yes)

[Richard Penna 3,679]

Watching of itunes required a bit later to see if/when the first two episode scores emerge...

[JNHFan2000 2,957]

I believe that the albums are Amazon Exclusives

[Chen G. 3,948]

http://filmmusicreporter.com/2022/08/31/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-season-1-episode-2-adrift-soundtrack-album-released/

 

https://music.amazon.ca/albums/B0BC2J6S48

[Holko 9,516]

Ep2 before Ep1?

 

An exclusivity window is fine I guess but keeping these amazon exclusive for weeks or even after the season aired would be a real asshole move.

[TheUlyssesian 2,476]

Yes, how does it make sense to have Ep 2 out before Ep 1?

 

Is the music from Ep 1 on the original album?

[Richard Penna 3,679]

I don't care about the ordering of releases (although that's a bit strange).

 

More that we can listen to and buy the albums without having to subscribe to something else.

[itsevilr 4]

Amazon music is not even available In my country 😏

[Holko 9,516]

I don't have 7digital or quobuz or prime (shipping), and I can't even be bothered to find out if I have that stupid mp3 streaming here.

[Jay 37,336]

I'm guessing the reason the episode 2 OST dropped before the episode 1 OST is one of these reasons:
 

1 - A pure accident, somebody typed in the wrong release date.  They were supposed to drop at the same time, or this one was supposed to come out some time after episode 1's

 

2 - Someone thinks some aspect of the music on the episode 1 OST is a spoiler, so they never intended to release it until after the episode was out.  But episode 2 doesnt have any music spoilers, so they released it ahead of the episode drops to built excitement

 

3 - The initial soundtrack release already contains much of the music used in episode 1 so it won't be getting an episodic album

[MedigoScan 324]

Hmm well the 2nd episode is not entirely new in the way of music, some parts seem lifted straight from the suites. Lot of action material and some twists to big themes like The Stranger, Durin and Khazad-dum.

I only recognized one actual direct theme from the Album too: The Sundering Seas.

 

[Holko 9,516]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm guessing the reason the episode 2 OST dropped before the episode 1 OST is one of these reasons:
 

1 - A pure accident, somebody type in the wrong release date.  They were supposed to drop at the same time, or this one was supposed to come out some time after episode 1's

 

2 - Someone thinks some aspect of the music on the episode 1 OST is a spoiler, so they never intended to release it until after the episode was out.  But episode 2 doesnt have any music spoilers, so they released it ahead of the episode drops to built excitement

 

3 - The initial soundtrack release already contains much of the music used in episode 1 so it won't be getting an episodic album

The filmmusicreporter article Chen linked says "Another album featuring the composer’s score from the first episode is expected to come out within the next day and more music will be released weekly as new episodes premiere over the next couple of weeks."

[Jay 37,336]

Sure, but does FMR have new information given to them from Amazon, or are they regurgitating the info we already knew from the prior press release about every episode getting an album?

[Holko 9,516]

We didn't know ep1's is coming tomorrow.

[Jay 37,336]

But that's my point - we still don't.

 

FMR says "...is expected..." -- again, are they just assuming based on the old press release?

[TheUlyssesian 2,476]

I saw the first 2 episodes. 

 

I will say this - while the themes are definitely good and memorable and there's several of them so there's variety - to a large degree I feel the score is what I called "suite scoring".

 

Like now that he has these 14 or 15 or how many ever themes, the actual scoring is - play Theme 1 when character 1 appears on screen, play Theme 2 when character 2 appears on screen.

 

There doesn't seem to be a lot of actual "scoring". As in really writing for each moment. 

 

Shore did not write this way. He did not have 50 suites ready made to then copy paste as needed. He constructed the motifs and then scored each scene, each moment. He actually does not have many concert suites of single theme presentations for LOTR despite having dozens upon dozens of themes.

 

So at least so far in the first 2 episodes, you have recognition when a theme plays, but no real insight or emotion. Think to when you see the LOTR films, your heart skips a beat everytime the Shire theme plays - it means something. It is not one suite applied like wallpaper on all Hobbit scenes.

 

I am being nitpicky - but this is definitely an above average score for television. The various themes do stand out and most are indeed memorable. So kudos to Bear for that for sure.

[Jay 37,336]

I believe we've learned our answer: the album was put up early by mistake.  It's now gone from Amazon.

[MedigoScan 324]

10 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I saw the first 2 episodes. 

 

I will say this - while the themes are definitely good and memorable and there's several of them so there's variety - to a large degree I feel the score is what I called "suite scoring".

 

Like now that he has these 14 or 15 or how many ever themes, the actual scoring is - play Theme 1 when character 1 appears on screen, play Theme 2 when character 2 appears on screen.

 

There doesn't seem to be a lot of actual "scoring". As in really writing for each moment. 

 

Shore did not write this way. He did not have 50 suites ready made to then copy paste as needed. He constructed the motifs and then scored each scene, each moment. He actually does not have many concert suites of single theme presentations for LOTR despite having dozens upon dozens of themes.

 

So at least so far in the first 2 episodes, you have recognition when a theme plays, but no real insight or emotion. Think to when you see the LOTR films, your heart skips a beat everytime the Shire theme plays - it means something. It is not one suite applied like wallpaper on all Hobbit scenes.

 

I am being nitpicky - but this is definitely an above average score for television. The various themes do stand out and most are indeed memorable. So kudos to Bear for that for sure.

 

I do hope to hear more thematic evolution too yeah.

But it could be worse. They could start tracking in music in later seasons.

[TheUlyssesian 2,476]

Just now, MedigoScan said:

 

I do hope to hear more thematic evolution too yeah.

But it could be worse. They could start tracking in music in later seasons.

 

I mean - simply the way television is made - it is bound to happen. TV is by its very nature rather assembly line - like.

[mattrushing02 23]

I can't wait to have someone put all the albums together in one chronological flow!

[Chen G. 3,948]

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I saw the first 2 episodes. 

 

I will say this - while the themes are definitely good and memorable and there's several of them so there's variety - to a large degree I feel the score is what I called "suite scoring".

 

Like now that he has these 14 or 15 or how many ever themes, the actual scoring is - play Theme 1 when character 1 appears on screen, play Theme 2 when character 2 appears on screen.

 

There doesn't seem to be a lot of actual "scoring". As in really writing for each moment. 

 

Shore did not write this way. He did not have 50 suites ready made to then copy paste as needed. He constructed the motifs and then scored each scene, each moment. He actually does not have many concert suites of single theme presentations for LOTR despite having dozens upon dozens of themes.

 

That's how I figured.

 

Most of film (and certainly television) scoring doesn't actually use the mature leitmotif technique: they use what are called reminiscence themes, and that's what we have here with Bear's score: yes, there are a lot of themes, and yes they are attached to specific elements in the drama: Galadriel, Arondir and Bronwyn's love, the Harfoots and so fourth. But they don't undergo change - they may be orchestrated for trumpet here for a noble, heroic effect, and bassoon here to give a touch of darkenss to it; maybe the tempo is faster here to give it an urgency and maybe broader there to give a climactic sense. But their basic musical character remains the same.

 

Some - not all - of Shore's motives undergo incredible metamorphoses, both in their musical characters, in their dramatic associations, in their connection to other motives and indeed in their very function. That (along with the idea that ALL the score is based on these leitmotives) is what really sets scores like that apart from the rest of the crowd.

[Gollum Cat 24]

22 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Most of film (and certainly television) scoring doesn't actually use the mature leitmotif technique: they use what are called reminiscence themes,

. . .

Some - not all - of Shore's motives undergo incredible metamorphoses, both in their musical characters, in their dramatic associations, in their connection to other motives and indeed in their very function. That (along with the idea that ALL the score is based on these leitmotives) is what really sets scores like that apart from the rest of the crowd.

@Chen G. - this is interesting. Your description of reminiscence themes is actually what I have had in my head before when it comes to leitmotif. What makes up this more mature technique you mention?

[TheUlyssesian 2,476]

26 minutes ago, Gollum Cat said:

@Chen G. - this is interesting. Your description of reminiscence themes is actually what I have had in my head before when it comes to leitmotif. What makes up this more mature technique you mention?

i think Williams does this better than most. He isn’t copy pasting the concert suite over the film.

 

 He writes for each moment.

 

i would say when you score each moment, the theme doesn’t sound repetitive.

 

i think what we are discussing here is the difference between extraordinary mastery and very competent skill.

 

Bear is very skillful and we are praising him. But his work doesn’t show he has reached the status of a master. 

[blondheim 1,157]

29 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Bear is very skillful and we are praising him. But his work doesn’t show he has reached the status of a master. 

We? Not over here. Some of us are still less than impressed.

 

I completely agree with Chen G. here. Reminiscence scoring as he puts it does nothing for me and this is basically just that on steroids. Which isn’t admirable or skilled to me. Competent is the word, I think