Rings of Power Bear McCreary's The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings of Power (2022)

[The Score Cleaner 8,453]

25 minutes ago, Holko said:

It's not like somebody's putting a gun to their head forcing them to always listen to it all. The only goodish reason for complaining I can think of would be frustration that this [thing you don't like as much] is immediately treated so well respectfully for the fans while [great score] still only has a 35 minute OST release and the rest of it is rotting on shelves partly miscatalogued without anyone caring.

Or TBF you have a ton of scores to listen to and review, and one or more of them is this big fat time sink.

 

Or you have a life outside of film scores (family?) constantly taking up your available time haha

[TolkienSS 502]

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

The approach to the spiders is indeed very different.

 

Shore's spider music is an insane atonal musical entropy.

 

I was thinking along the lines of repetetiveness, orchestration skills, voicing, melody leading, originality, dramatic weight and capturing a literary classic.

 

But different is okay too I guess lol

 

If McCreary scores the new LotR films I'm gonna weep.

[Chen G. 5,447]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

If McCreary scores the new LotR films I'm gonna weep.

 

My bet is between Howard Shore - at least for The Hunt for Gollum - or Stephen Gallagher again.

 

New Line are - very rightly - interested in differentiating their films from the show.

[tomsmoviemadness 4,431]

Does it really matter if they are?

 

This way there will be different things for people to enjoy. I know some of you here don't enjoy RoP, which is fine, but there are plenty of people out there that do, myself included.

 

So I sort of hope for you guys, that the films being made at New Line will be good.

[Chen G. 5,447]

3 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

This way there will be different things for people to enjoy. I know some of you here don't enjoy RoP, which is fine, but there are plenty of people out there that do, myself included.

 

Yeah, I'm not here to crap on people's parade. I like Bear's score for what it is, liked the Howard Shore and Plan 9 pieces from Season One, and would be pleasantly surprised if I hear them reprised within the context of Bear's underscore to come.

 

But all the same I'm happy that New Line are moving to differentiate the two properties. As you say, "different things for people to enjoy." So long as they're clearly demarcated as different: I'm not a fan of the way Amazon is blurring those lines. So yeah, that would entail keeping Bear well away from those films.

[TolkienSS 502]

20 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

Does it really matter if they are?

 

This way there will be different things for people to enjoy. I know some of you here don't enjoy RoP, which is fine, but there are plenty of people out there that do, myself included.

 

So I sort of hope for you guys, that the films being made at New Line will be good.

 

Please don't pretend the legacy of the original New Line films are in any way comparable to the declining modicum of interest in Amazon's billion dollar Tolkien deconstruction.

[tomsmoviemadness 4,431]

I was talking about the films that are going to come out. So not sure what you're going on about now.

I am saying nothing about the original films. I adore those films, some of the best I've ever seen. And I'm hoping for everyone that the upcoming films are something people who don't like RoP can enjoy.

 

And I'm not here to start an argument about what's better. We can all agree that the OG films will always be better than anything else based on Tolkien's words.

 

I was merely saying that I enjoy RoP for what it is, and I'm aware that some here and in other places don't, which is of course fine. I just don't get the infinite bashing of it on here, what are you hoping to accomplish with that?

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

Let's not pretend that Ride of the Rohirrim anime and the Gollum films aren't massive IP milking cash grabs.

 

 Nothing is scared in this world.

 

--

 

On the issue of  Bear shorting New Line films, it's the same problem Shore wouldn't had he scored the Amazon show. Do you have enough left to give - without repeating yourself or tying yourself into pretzels.

 

I think the New Line sound is established to be Shore's sound and the timeline is roughly between Hobbit and Lotr films. So honestly the scope for new leitmotifs is extremely low and they could either hire Shore or a replacement to score the film as anything, anyone who needs a theme in the Gollum film already has a Shore film that not SHOULD be used.

[The Score Cleaner 8,453]

The Sun Yet Shines', around 3:47, hint at the Shore theme? Yay or nay?

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

7 minutes ago, The Great Gonzales said:

The Sun Yet Shines', around 3:47, hint at the Shore theme? Yay or nay?

 

100% Yay. Bear is smart and he has said he's buried more easter eggs in the Season 2 score.

[tomsmoviemadness 4,431]

I was thinking that as well earlier today, and saw someone else on twitter notice it too.

Would be really cool if it's true. We'll have to wait till a blog post I think.

[The Score Cleaner 8,453]

2 minutes ago, JNHFan2000 said:

I was thinking that as well earlier today, and saw someone else on twitter notice it too.

Would be really cool if it's true. We'll have to wait till a blog post I think.

Yeah, Tim L. posted it on Filmtracks Scoreboard.

[Damien F 1,939]

On 23/08/2024 at 4:04 PM, Jay said:

The Sun Yet Shines is incredible, the best track on the album.  I wonder if its all score from episode 8 of the season, or Bear just knew it was a great album closer

Galadriel's theme sounds incredible in that track.

[crocodile 9,346]

I have to say the Eregion theme appeals to me quite a bit. It feels bit autumnal and declining to the idealised/mythical Valinor theme. Oddly, reminds me of some of the Kili/Tauriel material from The Hobbit.

 

Karol

[Tydirium 1,483]

3 hours ago, The Great Gonzales said:

The Sun Yet Shines', around 3:47, hint at the Shore theme? Yay or nay?

 

Those three descending notes? I guess it could be a hint, but step-wise descending notes are incredibly common; every scale has them. Now, if it went down one more note and then dropped an interval of a fifth, then I’d definitely agree.

 

18 minutes ago, crocodile said:

I have to say the Eregion theme appeals to me quite a bit. It feels bit autumnal and declining to the idealised/mythical Valinor theme. Oddly, reminds me of some of the Kili/Tauriel material from The Hobbit.

 

Karol

 

Love its appearance at 1:24 in “Last Temptation”!

[Jay 43,897]

Cool, hadn't noticed that that melody appears in more than one track.

 

Does the theme in Concerning Stoors appear again?

[crocodile 9,346]

40 minutes ago, Jay said:

Cool, hadn't noticed that that melody appears in more than one track.

Check Cirdan's Perfection at about 0:30 where it hints at the theme (I think). In Emissary at the Forge at about 5:30 mark as well you can hear quite an ominous version. I can also hear it at 5:35 in Battle for Eregion. There might be more.

 

Karol

[Knight of Ren 1,328]

Nice! Hadn't noticed those statements of the Eregion theme! I'm not sure about the one in Cirdan's Perfection as to me it aounds closer to the Valinor theme, but it's true that the accompanying bell motif is very similar to what opens the Eregion track. So with counting those variations, the only other new theme to make an appearance outside of its own track is the Rhûn theme in Sandstorm at the Well, right?

 

And I think these are all the new themes we can identify so far with this release:

-Tom Bombadil

-Rhûn

-Stoors

-Gil-galad? (Golden Leaves)

-Eregion

-Shelob?

-Estrid

-Barrow-whights

-Damrod

 

There are also some passages that feature new material that could be a new theme but hard to tell as of now. I'm talking about the first part of Forgiveness Takes an Age and also the middle section of Candles on the Tide.

[Tydirium 1,483]

Part of me wonders if the French horn at 1:34-1:46 of “The Great Eagle” could be part of a character theme. (Maybe one that isn’t heard elsewhere on the soundtrack? Pharazôn?) Or it could just be a random little melodic bridge.

[Chen G. 5,447]

14 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

On the issue of  Bear shorting New Line films, it's the same problem Shore wouldn't had he scored the Amazon show. Do you have enough left to give - without repeating yourself or tying yourself into pretzels.

 

It's more just an issue of licensing: If Shore HAD scored the show, he still couldn't actually use any of his themes. The opening titles are a great example where you have an idea that's clearly related to the arpeggios we associate with Rivendell, but in a different rhythm, slightly different harmony and a diminished fifth instead of an augmented fifth. Shore would have had to do these sorts of things to ALL his themes.

 

Likewise, there would be little to be gained by having Bear score a New Line because he, too, could hardly port over material from the Amazon show. Still more essential, however, is that I think New Line Cinema will avoid any major cast or crew overlap - notwithstanding Lord of the Rings veterans that the show also tipped like John Howe - to keep the two properties distinct. They would be very right to do so.

[crocodile 9,346]

To be honest, in terms of sheer numbers, Bear now produced roughly the same amount music for the Amazon series as Complete Recordings and The Hobbit SE albums combined. And that is just about 40% of it! With the studios' willingness to shoehorn just about anything into this project, it's safe to assume he will be able to address almost any (legally available) aspect of Tolkien world imaginable. Bastardised most often than not, but still... I don't think he needs to do anything beyond that. 😆

 

Fortunately for me, music so far is so enjoyable on its own that I don't even need the show. I will watch it for some context, of course, and might even enjoy some of it. But it's doubtful much of it will linger in memory for long.

 

Karol

[Monoverantus 572]

I've made a track-by-track analysis, which probably still needs a lot of work:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hxjgRx6Os9S7AXQssSRfFo7ZAmPa5IYNLOd20Uj4K_0/edit

[crocodile 9,346]

39 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

I've made a track-by-track analysis, which probably still needs a lot of work:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hxjgRx6Os9S7AXQssSRfFo7ZAmPa5IYNLOd20Uj4K_0/edit

I also spotted Valinor theme making a semi-disguosed appearance in Cirdan's Perfection between 2:54 and 3:24. Listen to the brass, you can hear the entire melodic line broken down into smaller segments over 30 seconds so it's easy to miss under all the swirling strings.

 

Karol

[TolkienSS 502]

I still find this Shore-scoring discussion dishonest and two faced beyond words.

 

When it's about Shore in his 70s writing music for extensions of his classic franchise, the "scope for new leitmotifs is very thin" and the question is "how much he has left".

 

When it's about Williams writing music for extensions of his classic franchises, there is no movie stupid enough, no spin-off series superfluous enough for people to come out and fawn over the possibilities of what a semi retired Williams at a billion years of age might produce spectacular and memorable for "the catalogue of themes".

 

When it's suggested a composer scoring Middle-Earth should stay as close as possible to the Shore sound, that's "not realistic" and "irrelevant".

 

When Williams does not score every single entry in his franchise, the replacement composer MUST act as a surrogate for Williams' sound, because it's "indefinitely tied to the film" and would otherwise be dissapointing.

 

[Monoverantus 572]

3 hours ago, crocodile said:

I also spotted Valinor theme making a semi-disguosed appearance in Cirdan's Perfection between 2:54 and 3:24. Listen to the brass, you can hear the entire melodic line broken down into smaller segments over 30 seconds so it's easy to miss under all the swirling strings.

 

Karol

I think you're right, it's definitely Valinor-y music regardless

[Chen G. 5,447]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

When it's about Shore in his 70s writing music for extensions of his classic franchise, the "scope for new leitmotifs is very thin" and the question is "how much he has left".

 

When it's about Williams writing music for extensions of his classic franchises, there is no movie stupid enough, no spin-off series superfluous enough for people to come out and fawn over the possibilities of what a semi retired Williams at a billion years of age might produce spectacular and memorable for "the catalogue of themes".

 

 

But I get the underlying point. This isn't a musical in which each leitmotif is a "number" that happens to repeat. The whole appeal is in the developments these ideas undergo, more as the raw material for the composition than as signifiers.

[bored 582]

9 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

When it's suggested a composer scoring Middle-Earth should stay as close as possible to the Shore sound, that's "not realistic" and "irrelevant".

 

 

Yeah, I liked the main album for RoP season 1 but I just can't get into it as much as I'd like to. The fact it's outside of Shore's musical world, one that was so thoroughly built with even a potential second-age Gondor leitmotif in the alternate prologue for Fellowship, only for the opportunity for it to be expanded being taken away due to rights issues, and some of Bear's stylistic weirdness (at least in this season), just makes it feel pointless, because all of this musical material won't build to anything more than what's established in this series.

 

Good for Bear, there's some quality stuff here, hope he develops it well, but it just has this hollow feeling for me knowing it will never build upon or towards Howard Shore's material besides some secondary ideas.

[Chen G. 5,447]

13 minutes ago, bored said:

it just has this hollow feeling for me knowing it will never build upon or towards Howard Shore's material besides some secondary ideas.

 

We should have known better: the only way to realistically get a Shore or Shore-congruent score was if this show was being made by HBO. Being that it's by Amazon, I think the best thing would be to treat them as two separate Lord of the Rings properties, notwithstanding the Shore and Plan 9 contributions, all in Season One.

 

But sure, it would have been great to have a series where Gil-galad was flanked by guards in the Last Alliance garb, the Numenoreans would soldier off in their gear from Fellowship of the Ring, and welcomed by the "Second Age" Gondor music from the Rarities, and Elrond wielding Hadhafang, and the Eregion that's pictured in Rivendell, and so forth.

 

That's not what we got. But, look at it this way: OFF of Season One, we did get worthwhile Shore and Plan 9 pieces, not to mention contributions from the Wetas and so forth, which could be appreciated outside the narrative context of the show. And still yet, we're getting more Shore-congruent contributions from Gallagher this year, and from whomever two years down the line with Gollum and presumably much else beside yet to come.

[bored 582]

The main title alone makes the score for me. The fact that it represents practically every Middle Earth culture in one piece is quite frankly genius.

[Chen G. 5,447]

9 minutes ago, bored said:

The fact that it represents practically every Middle Earth culture in one piece is quite frankly genius.

 

I used to look at it that way, but now I think it's hyperbole.

 

What you have is an arpeggio with an augmented fifth (an Elvish sound), a descending scale with the leap of a fifth (mankind?), you could consider the bridging material (rising major scale) as an embryo for the Shire music, and when the arpeggios turn minor the underlying chords become the "evil" progression that permeates the whole score.

 

But there's really no allusion to the offbeat rhythms of the Orcs, to the intervalic world of the Dwarves, to Nature, to the Ents, etc...

[bored 582]

I meant more general aesthetics as well as some of the composition elements you listed. French Horns and Trombones open for mankind, female choir for elves, descending string line that feels more hobbit-like but orchestration-wise can also fit with elves, chanting male choir for Dwarves/dark places of the world, Mount Doom chords and dark orchestra writing for Mordor.

 

It's more the main five cultures represented. Evil, dwarves, man, elves, and hobbits. Since Shore only had one new piece to compose, I imagine it was somewhat intentional.

[Tydirium 1,483]

I guess I am a bit confused why we are still talking about Shore’s Middle-earth scores, when it comes to this series. As soon as we found out that this show wasn’t going to be in the Peter Jackson canon, I thought it was obvious that Shore’s themes would not be used. It just wouldn’t have made sense. And frankly, as much as I do like Shore’s main title music for the show, part of me wishes McCreary had done the main title music instead, to further unify the show’s sound world under him. Why should this show have a theme by a totally different composer, just because that composer happened to have written music for movies that aren’t even in the same canon? Shore already had his time in Middle-earth. The fact that he even got to write the main title music, is IMO more than anyone should have ever expected.

[bored 582]

57 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

Shore already had his time in Middle-earth.

 

Again, imagine this argument for the Star Wars. "John Williams had his time in Star Wars". Yeah, the series isn't "canon" so it's slightly different, but when everything else is aping the films, including the music at times, and when the film scores in question are some of the best ever written for film, that could have potentially done even more with its musical world, you can't expect people to not be disappointed by the lack of continuation.

 

Hogwarts Legacy isn't canon. Still has Williams' theme and much of his style, and the music is better for it. What if the Disney movies weren't strictly canon? Williams had his time in Star Wars right? Why bother getting him? Get someone else!

[Knight of Ren 1,328]

I think the point here is that at the moment we knew they weren't allowed to use music from Jackson's movies, and that Shore was not going to do 8 hours of music every 2 years, the best option is to have a composer be able to do his own thing and I think that's what McCreary is doing brilliantly. Shore's scores are masterpieces and nobody can deny that, but McCreary is giving this universe his own voice and style.

 

Continuing with the Star Wars comparison, even if I know many people here don't like this score, The Mandalorian went on his own musical route and when they had a chance to get closer to Williams's style/themes thanks to the story, they took the chance and included those themes, and even also referencing Kiner's work.

 

So yeah, I think McCreary should be able to do whatever he likes for this iteration of Middle-Earth and the constant comparisons with Shore are, I feel, pointless, as they are different composers and have a different approach, but both are awesome in their own ways if you ask me!

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

4 hours ago, bored said:

 

Yeah, I liked the main album for RoP season 1 but I just can't get into it as much as I'd like to. The fact it's outside of Shore's musical world, one that was so thoroughly built with even a potential second-age Gondor leitmotif in the alternate prologue for Fellowship, only for the opportunity for it to be expanded being taken away due to rights issues, and some of Bear's stylistic weirdness (at least in this season), just makes it feel pointless, because all of this musical material won't build to anything more than what's established in this series.

 

Good for Bear, there's some quality stuff here, hope he develops it well, but it just has this hollow feeling for me knowing it will never build upon or towards Howard Shore's material besides some secondary ideas.

 

Honestly, this is a bizzare post. You acknowledge that literally legally under threat of skull crushing financial liability and reputational and brand damage and utter financial and profession ruin, Amazon had absolutely no chance in hell, not even the barest possibility of using Shore's Jackson music for their series. Yet you find fault with Amazon? I don't understand.

 

 It's like saying, this man would have 100% drowned and killed himself had he swum to the bottom of the ocean to retrieve the penny i dropped and i absolutely hate him that he didn't get me the penny and he's a terrible person.

 

 

[bored 582]

No, not my point. You completely misread it. I know they couldn't use Howard Shore's themes. I'm not blaming them for that. I said, good for Bear, and I hope he continues with what he's doing. But it doesn't change the fact that the whole situation is bittersweet because we don't have the continuation of Howard Shore's musical world.

 

I was never saying (or didn't mean to), "Amazon sucks for not allowing continuation of Shore's music", I was just saying why I can't quite get into Bear's music. Partially because of his stylistic choices like the metal influences. That's where my point begins and ends. It's a shame it's not connected and can't be, and can't live up to Howard Shore's music. For some it will and that's fine, but for me it doesn't.

 

I just think it's a non-argument to say "Well Shore's time is up!" when the only reason that's the case is due to legal issues. I do not dislike 90% of Bear's score. But the implication that it's somehow necessary or natural for Shore to not compose more, I just don't agree with.

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

But again Shore is a composer for hire. He composed his music as accompaniment to visuals created by someone else and Shore was commissioned to write music accompanying those visuals. If there are no more visuals, what will Shore write music to? 

 

And does he even have appetite for writing more? 

 

These are all questions of business and finances and logistics etc. 

 

There is no wishing that there SHOULD be more Shore middle earth music. There can only be if there are more movies etc. and they hire Shore and he agrees to do the score.

[Tydirium 1,483]

4 hours ago, bored said:

 

Again, imagine this argument for the Star Wars. "John Williams had his time in Star Wars". Yeah, the series isn't "canon" so it's slightly different, but when everything else is aping the films, including the music at times, and when the film scores in question are some of the best ever written for film, that could have potentially done even more with its musical world, you can't expect people to not be disappointed by the lack of continuation.

 

Hogwarts Legacy isn't canon. Still has Williams' theme and much of his style, and the music is better for it. What if the Disney movies weren't strictly canon? Williams had his time in Star Wars right? Why bother getting him? Get someone else!

 

Why would you bring up Star Wars, of all things? All of the big Star Wars shows and films that have been made under Disney, are still in the same canon as the classic films John Williams scored. How is that comparable to the ROP situation?

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

 

...but when everything else is aping the films, including the music at times, and when the film scores in question are some of the best ever written for film, that could have potentially done even more with its musical world, you can't expect people to not be disappointed by the lack of continuation.

 

Not everything is aping the films. There are some stylistic similarities, to be sure, but there are plenty of differences as well, and it has been made clear numerous times that this is not in the same universe as the Peter Jackson films. There is no universe where Morfydd Clark’s Galadriel ends up later looking and sounding like Cate Blanchett, nor does Robert Aramayo’s Elrond later end up looking and sounding like Hugo Weaving. These are totally different interpretations of the book characters. 

 

What does the fact that “the film scores in question are some of the best ever written for film” (and I agree that they are) have to do with anything? Also, Shore already did do more with the musical world, in the three Hobbit films. Shore is not “the” LOTR composer the way John Williams is “the” SW composer. John Williams defined the sound of SW from the get-go, but remember, others came before Shore. By your logic, people should have been upset that Shore’s Middle-earth scores didn’t sound like Glenn Yarbrough/Maury Laws’ or Leonard Rosenman’s music from the even earlier adaptations.

 

You mentioned that they “could have potentially done even more with its musical world,” but that is very vague and open-ended; I mean, at what point could more not potentially be done with that musical world? As I’m sure you would agree, you could always theoretically do more, as long as Middle-earth adaptations are being made. Furthermore, more is being done with that musical world, and later this year no less, in the “War of the Rohirrim” film: a film which looks nothing like any of the rest of Jackson’s Middle-earth universe, and yet as it is in the same canon, will still feature returning Shore themes. As it should! Not to mention that the upcoming Gollum films will likely do more with Shore’s musical world, too. Which is great! Not only do I have no problem with that, but I am looking forward to it! But again, those films are in the Peter Jackson canon, where those musical themes also reside. This show is off in its own universe, and it deserves its own new and distinct lexicon of themes.

 

I really don’t see why people would be disappointed, if they understand the fact that this show is not in the PJ universe. I can maybe understand being disappointed if they aren’t aware of that, but I find it odd that you evidently are aware and yet are still disappointed.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

 

Hogwarts Legacy isn't canon. Still has Williams' theme and much of his style, and the music is better for it.

 

I don’t know where you got your info about Hogwarts Legacy, but it is indeed considered to be part of the Wizarding World canon, just like the HP films.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

 

What if the Disney movies weren't strictly canon? Williams had his time in Star Wars right? Why bother getting him? Get someone else!

 

You are ignoring the fact that Disney owns all of Star Wars. There wouldn’t have been a rights issue, if they wanted him to score non-canon movies. Again, not comparable to the ROP situation; why do you insist on ignoring the nuances of the situation? We have known that the Shore themes cannot be used anyways, for legal reasons. Something tells me you still wouldn’t have been happy if Shore was hired for the show, but wasn’t able to reprise any of his existing themes.

 

1 hour ago, bored said:

But it doesn't change the fact that the whole situation is bittersweet because we don't have the continuation of Howard Shore's musical world.

 

I would understand this sentiment if the show was set within the PJ universe, but it’s not. Plus, Shore’s musical world is still continuing alongside this, via upcoming films that are set in the PJ universe. By finding this ROP situation bittersweet, it honestly seems like you think Shore should have a monopoly on all Middle-earth music.

 

1 hour ago, bored said:

I just think it's a non-argument to say "Well Shore's time is up!" when the only reason that's the case is due to legal issues.

 

How do you know legal issues are the only reason? There are no legal issues with “War of the Rohirrim,” and Shore is not scoring that (even though his themes are being used)...

[The Score Cleaner 8,453]

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

. If there are no more visuals, what will Shore write music to? 

 

 

Uhhh.....

 

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

There is no wishing that there SHOULD be more Shore middle earth music. There can only be if there are more movies etc. and they hire Shore and he agrees to do the score.

 

 

 

But I get what you mean.

[Chen G. 5,447]

9 hours ago, Knight of Ren said:

So yeah, I think McCreary should be able to do whatever he likes for this iteration of Middle-Earth and the constant comparisons with Shore are, I feel, pointless, as they are different composers and have a different approach

 

6 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Not everything is aping the films. There are some stylistic similarities, to be sure, but there are plenty of differences as well, and it has been made clear numerous times that this is not in the same universe as the Peter Jackson films. There is no universe where Morfydd Clark’s Galadriel ends up later looking and sounding like Cate Blanchett, nor does Robert Aramayo’s Elrond later end up looking and sounding like Hugo Weaving. These are totally different interpretations of the book characters. 

 

Now this is special pleading. While I agree that the show is indeed separate, it's modelling of itself on the films goes well beyond "some stylistic similarities": it courses through the show's veins pretty much continuously, in every department.

 

If Robert Aramayo doesn't "end up looking and sounding like Hugo Weaving" - as indeed he doesn't - then why pick an actor who could pass for a younger version of Weaving's Elrond, replete with concept art for Elrond scenes using Weaving's likeness? I also feel like Aramayo, in particular, took some cues from Weaving.

 

But its also in the script (callbacks of lines, e.g. Elrond's "And enough malt beer to fill the Anduin), shooting locations (New Zealand!), sets, props, weapons (Goddamn Narsil!), special effects (Durin's Bane!) and sound design, to name just a few examples.

 

I know all the stock excuses for why that is - "Well, both shows use John Howe as a concept artist so what we're seeing is not aping the films, its both properties channeling a pre-existing Howe sensibility" - No, the fact that Howe is concept design doesn't account for similarities in other departments. "Well, they went to shoot in New Zealand and, given the size of the country's screen sector, they ended-up with much of the same crew" - this is confusion cause and effect: they went to New Zealand TO get all this crew back, and at any rate most of those aren't on the Season Two payroll and yet, in some regards, the similarities have only increased: the Season Two Troll looks more like the Jackson Trolls that did the Season One monstrosity.

 

So, no, the similarities are there to, rather shamelessly, bamboozle casual viewers into thinking they're watching a prequel. And, indeed, this modeling also does extend to the music: not in the harmonic-melodic language (notwithstanding some inevitable similarities that were always going to crop-up in two compositions of such size) but in the associative use of timbre, and in some more basic choices like having an end-credits song. This, and the Shore and Plan 9 tracks all absolutely BEG YOU TO MAKE THE COMPARISON, and Bear certainly isn't helping it with his Blog where he treats his scores very rigorously as prequel scores.

 

If they were sharply delineated properties - visually and musically - with maybe the occasional homage, then @bored criticisms would indeed be out of place. But they're not. The fact that we got a copycat show does make one long for HBO to have made this show, instead, with all the trimmings, INCLUDING the Shore themes.

 

I'm not going to be sitting here banging on "SHOULD'VE BEEN SHORE" drum around Bear's score all the time: to do so would be to miss the forest for the trees. But at the same time, to say that its so completely different as to not call for a comparison...

[artguy360 2,129]

I'm enjoying the season 2 album quite a bit. It's nice to hear reoccurring themes from season 1 get new presentations. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

In regards to Peter Jackson's films viz a viz Amazon series, I have made my peace and I think it is wise for the general fandom to do so too. When we first saw the Amazon series, the quibbles were expected, because it was the first non-PJ Tolkein media that we were interacting with. There was the shock of it being different and for many of us honestly, not as good in a number of a ways. 

 

And yet that shock has faded in the TWO YEARS since Season 1 has been out. All the quibles have been aired and litigated. The reality that the Amazon series in not PJ is accepted and baked in and priced in at this point. So those quibbles don't yield any meaningful discussion now. 

 

Yes, the Amazon show is different. At this point, the move forward is not lamenting why it isn't like PJ's stuff, but looking ahead to see how we can get some pleasure to the extent possible out of these stories that we love. 

[bored 582]

13 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I don’t know where you got your info about Hogwarts Legacy, but it is indeed considered to be part of the Wizarding World canon, just like the HP films.

 

 

There seems to be some dispute of this. When I first looked it up, many sources were saying it wasn't at all, others were saying it might be loosely connected, and some say it is 100% canon. 

 

But besides that, I look forward to listening to Season 2's album, and going back to Season 1's score as well. Again, I'm just stating why I haven't been able to get into it yet, because the lack of connection makes it feel somewhat pointless to me. But I'm sure I will get past it. I was never making a definitive criticism and a plea for Shore. Just an opinion. I'm sure Howard Shore wasn't interested in composing the rest of the series, had other projects, etc.

 

Bear's done a good job on his own. It's just not the ideal scenario for a rich musical world (or the film universe in this case) to be rebooted because you lose all of the foundation for the original universe, minus the production elements that @Chen G. mentioned. 

[Jay 43,897]

So, out of the 18 themes Bear used in season 1, 16 of them are on the Season 2 OST album

 

1 Valinor

• 05 Círdan’s Perfection
• 17 Candles on the Tide

2 Galadriel

• 18 Army of Orcs
• 20 Battle for Eregion
• 21 Durin’s Bane
• 22 Last Temptation
• 25 The Sun Yet Shines

3 Sauron

• 09 Emissary at the Forge
• 18 Army of Orcs
• 22 Last Temptation

4 Adar/Orcs

• 18 Army of Orcs
• 20 Battle for Eregion

6 Nori

• 23 The Staff

7 Halbrand/Southlands

• 22 Last Temptation

8 Arondir/Bronwyn

• 11 The Pyre
• 16 Forgiveness Takes an Age

9 Elrond

• 15 Barrow-wights
• 20 Battle for Eregion
• 21 Durin’s Bane
• 22 Last Temptation

10 The Stranger

• 07 Sandstorm at the Well
• 23 The Staff

11 The Rings

• 05 Círdan’s Perfection
• 09 Emissary at the Forge

12 Khazad-dûm

• 21 Durin’s Bane

13 Durin IV

• 21 Durin’s Bane

14 Númenor

• 13 The Great Eagle

15 Elendil/Isildur

• 17 Candles on the Tide

17 Noble Warrior

• 20 Battle for Eregion
• 22 Last Temptation
• 25 The Sun Yet Shines

18 Ring Forging

• 09 Emissary at the Forge

 

And 2 of them don't appear at all

 

5 Harfoot

16 The Mystics

 

I wonder if those two will show up in one of the episode albums somewhere...

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

13 minutes ago, Jay said:

And 2 of them don't appear at all

 

5 Harfoot

16 The Mystics

 

I wonder if those two will show up in one of the episode albums somewhere...

 

I am just going by trailers here but we will definitely hear the Mystics' theme because they appear in the trailer.

 

Now since the lead Harfoot is Nori and she will be in Rhun with the Stranger and she has her own theme, there might not be an occasions for the Harfoot theme to appear. But if we cut back to the other Harfoots, their theme would appear. We know from the cast list that at least Poppy appears. So I am thinking we will hear the Harfoot theme as well. Though I would actually love if an instrumental rendition of Wandering Day could become Poppy's theme.

[Chen G. 5,447]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

In regards to Peter Jackson's films viz a viz Amazon series, I have made my peace and I think it is wise for the general fandom to do so too. When we first saw the Amazon series, the quibbles were expected, because it was the first non-PJ Tolkein media that we were interacting with. There was the shock of it being different and for many of us honestly, not as good in a number of a ways. 

 

Well, I think its absolutely the wrong approach. It feels deeply cynical to me: trying to "munch" on the fans of these films by means of surface-level similarities, derivative designs and so forth. It also makes the show look like a Frankenstein of vague Jacksonisms combined with McPayne-isms: one second, the Elves look straight out of Jackson's films, the other moment they look like a pre-Raphaelite painting threw-up on them. Each of these two approaches are legitimate: its the mish-mash of both that doesn't work, and that invites unflattering comparisons even where they wouldn't come to mind otherwise.

[TheUlyssesian 2,597]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Well, I think its absolutely the wrong approach. It feels deeply cynical to me: trying to "munch" on the fans of these films by means of surface-level similarities, derivative designs and so forth. It also makes the show look like a Frankenstein of vague Jacksonisms combined with McPayne-isms: one second, the Elves look straight out of Jackson's films, the other moment they look like a pre-Raphaelite painting threw-up on them. Each of these two approaches are legitimate: its the mish-mash of both that doesn't work, and that invites unflattering comparisons even where they wouldn't come to mind otherwise.

 

As they say, the horse has left the barn. The die is cast. It is for us to take it or leave it. I was vociferous in my criticism of Season 1. 

 

But I am now prepared to give Season 2 a chance on its own terms - now that I know what the terms are, now that I understand what they are trying to do.

 

Despite everything, there are things to recommend Season 2 - Bear's music chief among them, the obvious expense another, some of the aesthetics, some of the actors, some of the performances and of course the strength of Tolkien's imagination.

 

This is the only Tolkien game in town right now. And you know what, I'm gonna purchase tickets.

[DrPsych 36]

I'm late to the game... I didn't realize season 2 was out this year until last week, but I've had the album on non-stop. It's added to my Middle Earth soundtrack playlist of the six Jackson films plus season 1's albums. 

I put them on random yesterday for several hours and my wife couldn't differentiate which ones were from Bear and which were Shore's. I'm happy with this.

It's amazing to me that after 2 years, the exact same posters are saying the exact same things about the series and the scores. I haven't been around (seeing as I only joined to discuss Season 1's albums I don't check in often out-of-season), but I see the exact same names making the exact same points... Give it a rest and just enjoy the music and show! Or don't! It's been over 2 years now!

All that to say... I LOVE this album and am excited for the episodic albums. More power to Bear!

[The Score Cleaner 8,453]

@jpmatlack

 

That's why the appreciation thread exists.

 

 

[Jay 43,897]

What do you guys think of The Forging Theme?

 

Here's Bear's blog post where he talks about it: https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-episode-108/

 

It only appears in the final episode of season 1:

 

Season 1 Episode 8 album track 2 "An Intriguing Suggestion"

• 5:13-5:31 - racing strings, with female voices backing it up, then Halbrand's theme plays over it as well.  This same passage is on the Season 1 OST album in "Perilous Whispers" from 0:08-0:33

Season 1 Episode 8 album track 3 "Power Over Flesh"

• 3:08-3:51 - racing strings, now backed by mixed (?) choir.  The strings eventually reach a new ending bit that reminds me of the High Fells music from Desolation of Smaug.  This same passage is on the Season 1 OST album in "Perilous Whispers" from 0:39-1:16

Season 1 Episode 8 album track 8 "True Creation Requires Sacrifice", same as Season 1 album track of the same name

1. 1:48-2:42 - racing strings backed by female choir again, then The Rings theme plays over it.
2. 2:46-3:36 - the strings are now more broken up to start, then brass and flute play unique melodies over a more standard iteration of it.
3. 3:52-4:12 - still on strings, but now finally slowed down, playing more like a standard theme instead of an ostinato.  Mixed choir chant on top
4. 5:42-end - back to the racing ostinato version, backed by choir.  This is the final piece of music you hear in the entire season before the end credits.

 

Basically all these scenes cover the forging of the three Elven Rings of Power.  I expected it to come back in season when the Dwarven Rings of Power are forged.... and sure enough, it does make two appearance on the 2 OST album:

 

Season 2 album track 5 "Círdan's Perfection", thanks @Tydirium

1. 2:01-2:53 - racing strings with ethereal choir on top, switching to more pronounced choir halfway through
2. 4:09-4:54 - comes back quietly during the middle of the Rings of Power theme, continues on in a more spritely version, backed by mixed choir

 

Season 2 album track 9 "Emissary at the Forge"

• 3:15-4:03 - racing strings with female choir on top, then Sauron's theme plays over it now!  This instance gives way to a killer version of the Rings of Power theme afterwards too

 

I think its pretty cool that the theme is so instantly recognizable, and while its perhaps a relatively simple ostinato, the way he puts different choir over it makes each version different.  But then the way he puts Halbrand's Theme, the Rings of Power Theme, and Sauron's theme over it in three different cues is just brilliant!  Its the three themes that make the most sense to be combined with it for obvious reasons, and the combinations really sound great, every time!