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Bear McCreary's "Rings of Power" Themes


Monoverantus

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15 minutes ago, blondheim said:

If this score were able to surprise me in any way whatsoever, I would surely be more kind to it.

@Jay, is it time to open a Rings of Power Themes APPRECIATION thread?

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Wow, missing the joke and personally attacking people in the process, a double-whammy.

 

If you don't like the atmosphere of this place you're welcome to leave

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2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Wow, missing the joke and personally attacking people in the process, a double-whammy.

 

If you don't like the atmosphere of this place you're welcome to leave

 Mine was a joke too.

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7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Look man, you are completely welcome to like or not like any score and talk about it, but don't personally attacked people who like a scor eyou don't.  That's not what we do here.


I didn’t attack anyone for liking or not liking anything. I made a joke about the call for another appreciation thread after I simply posted an opinion. No mention was made of anyone’s intelligence or score opinion, disparaging or otherwise

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19 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 Mine was a joke too.

I didn't mind your comment, but I do mind this lame attempt to cover your tracks. What part of "Lol, y'all are so fragile" is the joke? What about it is supposed to be funny?

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1 minute ago, Edmund said:

I didn't mind your comment, but I do mind this lame attempt to cover your tracks. What part of "Lol, y'all are so fragile" is the joke? What about it is supposed to be funny?

 What part of “it’s time for another appreciation thread” was a joke? It read as a simple declarative statement to me. I was trying to bring it to a funny place but truthfully I didn’t like the implication that now that another negative comment had been written we needed to make a group that doesn’t include me so you guys can appreciate it in peace. That seems not cool

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The joke is that Jay has already opened two alternative positivity threads for this score/show, and thus it's funny to imagine that he would have to open even more. Granted it is hardly the pinnacle of wit, but it is still identifiably a joke, a bar which "Lol, y'all are so fragile" fails to clear. Hell, for all you know my joke was at Jay's expense and not yours.

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18 minutes ago, Edmund said:

The joke is that Jay has already opened two alternative positivity threads for this score/show, and thus it's funny to imagine that he would have to open even more.

 

Yup

 

18 minutes ago, Edmund said:

Granted it is hardly the pinnacle of wit, but it is still identifiably a joke, a bar which "Lol, y'all are so fragile" fails to clear.

 

Yup

 

18 minutes ago, Edmund said:

Hell, for all you know my joke was at Jay's expense and not yours.

 

Yup

 

 

21 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 It read as a simple declarative statement to me.

 

I did not.  And it seems clear the poster did not intend it to be interpreted that way either.

 

21 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I was trying to bring it to a funny place but truthfully I didn’t like the implication that now that another negative comment had been written we needed to make a group that doesn’t include me so you guys can appreciate it in peace. That seems not cool

 

You can hate on the score freely to your heart's content in the existing threads, and others who also dislike it will probably engage with you, and you might even get people who like the score to engage with you as well, if they feel like having a little bit of the back and forth.

 

Appreciation threads are a completely normal thing in online communities, and they they are not about excluding people, but excluding opinions - opinions which have a safe place to share, right in the same neighborhood.  It's a win-win.

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That's the same ring theme mentioned in the main post that appears in many tracks, and Bear's already given two concert arrangements to (the Fiona Apple one and the instumental one)

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That's why I didn't post in one of the appreciation threads. And I won't. I understand their purpose. I was laughing about how there are already two and another one is needed. The same reason for Edmund's joke "We obviously need one more" was the same reason for my own. I think if one is a joke so is the other and vice-versa.

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14 hours ago, blondheim said:


Lol, y’all are so fragile

This coming from the guy who was so hurt and sad and shattered because other people like different music?!?!  I remember literally laughing out loud when the OST was released and @blondheim’s posts talking about how much it “stings” that other people enjoyed it… seriously. If you need a good laugh, go back and read his posts and then keep in mind that he now thinks someone else is “so fragile”… 😂😂😂

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16 minutes ago, jpmatlack said:

This coming from the guy who was so hurt and sad and shattered because other people like different music?!?!  I remember literally laughing out loud when the OST was released and @blondheim’s posts talking about how much it “stings” that other people enjoyed it… seriously. If you need a good laugh, go back and read his posts and then keep in mind that he now thinks someone else is “so fragile”… 😂😂😂


The word you’re looking for is disappointed but sure.  I was.

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16 hours ago, blondheim said:

If this score were able to surprise me in any way whatsoever, I would surely be more kind to it.

 

Thing is, there's no need to be so 'unkind' by now.

 

In my view either you're enjoying the score and discussing the themes and highlights, or you've decided the score isn't for you and you just let it fade into the background along with everything else with a score you don't like.

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6 hours ago, Jay said:

Speaking of Bear's themes, did anybody else learn for the first time via reading Bear's blog that he not only scored this trailer, but that it uses his Stranger theme?


Yes, that was my first time learning that, too! I really liked the trailer music (maybe except for the big trailer-ized swell around 13 seconds in). Kinda surprised someone hadn’t noticed the theme sooner.

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18 hours ago, Jay said:

Speaking of Bear's themes, did anybody else learn for the first time via reading Bear's blog that he not only scored this trailer, but that it uses his Stranger theme?

 

 

 

The weird thing is that the opening for this trailer trailer feels so much more Shorey than does almost any of Bear's actual music for the series (which I generally really like).

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19 hours ago, Jay said:

Speaking of Bear's themes, did anybody else learn for the first time via reading Bear's blog that he not only scored this trailer, but that it uses his Stranger theme?

In my case it was when he used the melody again in the SDCC medley, but of course we couldn't know it was The Stranger's theme until the Season 1 album was released.

 

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I listened to that video twice now - it's pretty cool! Pretty fun little highlights arrangement. 


The sound quality is so crummy, I'd kill to hear a proper recording without all the audience noise, if one even exists!


In the meantime, I wonder if one could approximate that suite by editing together bits from the albums...

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Looks like The Mystics was indeed just an episode 8 track, but the first parts were taken from the earlier appearances of the Mystics Theme (Extinguished Torch, Encountering Servants)

 

Though I am sure there is some album-only material in there to bridge the gaps.

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So now that the season is over - anyone discover any other motifs or themes besides the 17 we have been discussing?

 

The only other motif I have noticed is this forging motif that I think occurs a couple of times in the last episode. Any others?

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

So, the Adar/Orcs, Bronwyn/Arondir, Khazad-dûm, and Durin IV themes all do not appear in Episode 8 at all?

 

I would presume so.

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Themes that appear in all 8 episodes

  • Galadriel
  • Sauron
  • Halbrand/Southlands

Themes that appear in 7 episodes

  • Adar/Orcs (not in episode 8)
  • Bronwyn/Arondir (not in episode 8)
  • Númenor (not in episode 1)

Themes that appear in 6 episodes

  • Nori (not in episodes 4 or 6)
  • Elrond (not in episodes 3 or 6)
  • The Stranger (not in episodes 4 or 6)
  • The Rings (not in episodes 3 or 6)
  • Elendil/Isildur (not in episodes 1 or 2)

Themes that appear in 4 episodes

  • Harfoot (episodes 1,3,7,8)
  • Khazad-dûm (episodes 2,4,5,7)
  • Durin IV (episodes 2,4,5,7)

Themes that appear in 3 episodes

  • The Mystics (episodes 5,7,8)

Themes that appear in 2 episodes

  • Valinor (episodes 1 and 8)

Themes that appear in 1 episode

  • Nolwa Mahtar (is it really fair to call this a "theme"?)
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I think a theme can be a theme even if it is in one scene. I would call You Are The Pan a theme in Hook or Jedi Steps a theme in Force Awakens. And if you give the composer a say, then yes Nolwa Mahtar would be a theme. He even included it in the ROP overture, so i think its safe to call it a theme. 

 

---

The only theme which I wonder was it worth while to create a theme was The Mystics.

 

They appear in literally 3 sequences if I am not mistaken and their theme in used in those sequences. Maybe it could have been scored with the Sauran Ostinato. Might have been a good mis direct too.

 

Because The Mystics theme is going to die now. Unless there are more of them. All other themes will survive and go forward.

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21 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I think a theme can be a theme even if it is in one scene.

 

I know a lot of people feel that way, and I respect that opinion, but for me personally it has never made sense.

 

All film scores contain melodies that used one time then never again.  It doesn't make sense to me to pick one and say: This is a theme!


A theme is a melody used in more than one cue, for me.

 

21 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I would call You Are The Pan a theme in Hook or Jedi Steps a theme in Force Awakens.

 

"You Are The Pan" is an album track that contains 2 cues, from 2 different parts of the movie (12M4 You Are The Pan followed by 7M6/8M1 The Face Of Pan)... that each use the same theme!  I don't think anybody would try to argue that this is not a theme!

 

Jedi Steps I would argue was not a theme until The Last Jedi made it one :)

 

21 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

And if you give the composer a say, then yes Nolwa Mahtar would be a theme. He even included it in the ROP overture, so i think its safe to call it a theme. 

 

Oh I know Bear considers it one of his 17 themes.  As soon as it shows up in a Season 2 cue, I'll agree with him :)

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

I know a lot of people feel that way, and I respect that opinion, but for me personally it has never made sense.

 

All film scores contain melodies that used one time then never again.  It doesn't make sense to me to pick one and say: This is a theme!


A theme is a melody used in more than one cue, for me.

 

 

"You Are The Pan" is an album track that contains 2 cues, from 2 different parts of the movie (12M4 You Are The Pan followed by 7M6/8M1 The Face Of Pan)... that each use the same theme!  I don't think anybody would try to argue that this is not a theme!

 

Jedi Steps I would argue was not a theme until The Last Jedi made it one :)

 

 

Oh I know Bear considers it one of his 17 themes.  As soon as it shows up in a Season 2 cue, I'll agree with him :)


it’s an unusual thought.

 

if I can get more specific, the actual meaning of theme is “melody” to technically any melody qualifies as a theme if you were so inclined. Not there is the issue of motifs. In common parlance, people would call a motif basic a shorter musical figure of some kind. 
 

motifs sometimes appear in a single scene but are classified as such. For example the decision motif in The Post, only appears in the scene where Streep decides to publish.

 

cue is not a movie term, it is a technical term that exists only because of how movies are scored and how scores are regarded. 
 

so I think the correct base or signifier would be a scene or a sequence.

 

 Now the question to ask would be if a melody is repeated within a single scene/sequence- does it qualify as a theme or motif?

 

i think that’s a definition that most could work with, that there is at least one repition, even if it is within a single scene - like the Asteroid Belt from 5 or they fly now from 9.

 

Personally I might allow for even an unrepeated melody to be considered a theme but that’s the most inclusive criterion. 
 

as a compromise, I think a definition where a melody is repeated anywhere - even be it in a single scene/sequence should qualify. Nolwa and Jedi steps do repeat their melody in the scene in which they appear.

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That's actually a good point, when a melody is used a bunch of times in a single cue, it can definitely make sense to consider it a theme.  Like Williams giving a concert arrangement to Here They Come, Asteroid Field, Battle in the Forest, etc, as the cues already had that strong melodic hook to base a whole concert arrangment on.

 

I do think we'll hear Nolwa Mahtar again in season 2 next time Galadriel takes off to do something heroic

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On 14/10/2022 at 1:56 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

The only other motif I have noticed is this forging motif that I think occurs a couple of times in the last episode. Any others?

 

Timestamps?

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Shows you how much I was actually properly enjoying episode 8 that I completely failed to notice Sauron and Halbrand's themes playing against each other in The Broken Line And Broken Silence. That theme is just pure evil particularly with the final chord at 4:58 in True Creation. (timestamp in reference to the part of the theme, not just that track)

 

Is the choral statement at 5:20 meant to be a sort of darker version of the first three notes of his 'Halbrand' theme? I'm not sure whether the bit after at 5:30 is a thematic reference or just a general 'evil' crescendo.

 

Together with the absolutely magnificent Wise One and the gentle introduction of the full 'rings' theme in True Creation, along with the Stranger given a workout in the Mystic sequence, I see what you mean about this episode being a thematic tour-de-force. It's a very focused episode, musically, and as you said before, Numenor barely features - such a climb down in prominence from episode 3 and the Southlands siege.

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On 18/10/2022 at 9:02 AM, Jay said:

 

Timestamps?

 

The forging motif can be heard at the following points in the track True Creation Requires Sacrifice on Amazon Music. It has the form of a dramatic racing ostinato.

 

1:47 prominent statements

2:46 halting statements

3:01 prominent statements

3:52 slowed down statement

5:15 prominent statements

 

It is actually heard throughout the cue, sometimes under the the Rings of power theme.

 

I would expect it to be heard for the forging of the 7 dwarf rings, 9 men rings and the one ring.

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Ahhhh, now I see what you're talking about!

 

I have liked this "theme" since I first heard the initial score album, but I don't think it's an 18th major theme or anything, it's more of an ostinato-y idea to tease the arrival of the main Rings theme (which sometimes never comes). 

 

In the main post of this thread, this musical idea is called "The Rings of Power Arpeggio" and it also runs through the first 2 minutes of "Perilous Whisperings", leading into Halbrand's theme at one point! 

 

A slightly different version of it is also in "In The Mines" at 1:48 that's pretty cool.

 

I betcha Bear will talk about this in his episode blogs...

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4 hours ago, Jay said:

Ahhhh, now I see what you're talking about!

 

I have liked this "theme" since I first heard the initial score album, but I don't think it's an 18th major theme or anything, it's more of an ostinato-y idea to tease the arrival of the main Rings theme (which sometimes never comes). 

 

In the main post of this thread, this musical idea is called "The Rings of Power Arpeggio" and it also runs through the first 2 minutes of "Perilous Whisperings", leading into Halbrand's theme at one point! 

 

A slightly different version of it is also in "In The Mines" at 1:48 that's pretty cool.

 

I betcha Bear will talk about this in his episode blogs...

 

I’d call it a motif, rather than a theme. Does it appear away from the Rings Of Power theme or always in conjunction.

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Okay - I figured it out I think. Here's what I think. The Forging Motif is indeed a net new motif. And while not a full blown theme - it can definitely be categorized as its own leitmotif. Below is my analysis.

 

@Monoverantus has categorized 12 instance of The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios. I have split them into two groups - Motif A & Motif B.

 

Motif A - 

 

On 19/08/2022 at 7:06 PM, Monoverantus said:

20. The Secrets of the Mountain

0:58-1:09 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Choir

 

32. In the Mines

1:48-2:14 The Rings of Power/Arpeggios Choir

4:52-5:07 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Choir

 

35. Perilous Whisperings

1:52-2:08 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Strings

2:08-2:16 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Choir/strings

 

Motif B -

 

On 19/08/2022 at 7:06 PM, Monoverantus said:

35. Perilous Whisperings

0:08-0:24 The Rings of Power Arpeggios Choir/strings

0:38-1:15 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Choir/strings

 

38. True Creation Requires Sacrifice

1:47-2:32 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Choir/strings

2:45-3:00 The Rings of Power Arpeggios Strings

3:00-3:33 The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios Strings/brass

3:51-4:17 The Rings of Power Arpeggios Slower strings

5:15-5:35 The Rings of Power Arpeggios Strings

 

Motif A & Motif B are NOT the same. They should not be categorized together.

 

Motif A is indeed a part of the Rings Of Power Theme. It is the first thing you hear in the concert suite. 

 

So Motif A IMHO should be named The Rings of Power Chords. That would be appropriate and not The Rings of Power Chords/Arpeggios.

 

Now Motif B - This is an arpeggio but this is not the same as the Rings of Power theme and is not a part of that theme nor does it derive from it nor does it feature in its the concert suite. It appears ONLY in Episode 8, only in conjunction to the forging activity.

 

I would thus classify it as a net new motif. (We know Bear is not opposed to writing a new motif if he thinks it is an especially important scene or action as he did with Nolwa Mathor when he could have used Galadriel). The new motif appears at the points indicated above in Perilous Whisperings and True Creation Requires Sacrifice. It should be called either Forging Motif or Forging Arpeggio.

 

So yes, Motif A is NOT the same as Motif B. And they should be identified with different names.

 

I hope this makes sense.

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I agree completely that it is not the same thing as what he calls the Rings Of Power chords, for sure! 

 

But what about the bit in In The Mines @ 1:48?

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

I agree completely that it is not the same thing as what he calls the Rings Of Power chords, for sure! 

 

But what about the bit in In The Mines @ 1:48?

 

That's a scene specific dramatic counterpoint. It is for the scene where Durin and Disa discover that Gil-Galad's story is true and mithril indeed cures dying/fading beings when the mithril next to the leaf cures it. So yes, the Rings of Power Chords do play over it - but to score the dramatic discovery, Bear writes this scene specific dramatic counterpoint to the Rings of Power Chords to make it more dramatic.

 

This counterpoint is not a motif it is just a scene specific thing. It should also dispel any notion that Bear is copy pasting his themes all over the epsiodes. This is just one of the several examples that no, he was actually scoring the scenes, adapting his themes to the scenes and even writing additional scene specific figures for some moments and overlaying them on top of his regular themes.

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OK I'll have to listen again because I thought the bit in In the Mines sounded like the forging theme / Motif B, but maybe I was hearing things that aren't there

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I don't have a piano anymore so I can't transcribe the two.

 

But our more musically literate friends, can anyone transcribe the Forging Motif from Perilous Whisperings and True Creation Requires Sacrifice. And also transcribe the counterpoint line at 1:48 in In the Mines and see if they are the same.

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Sorry that I've not posted in a while, I've been working on my Main Titles video. I'm 99% done and hope to release it tomorrow.

 

This is my best attempt at the arpeggios from In the Mines:

image.png

And these are the arpeggios you call the Forging motif:

image.png

 

I'm still sceptical to calling these separate motifs. Unless you're Shore, an arpeggio is usually just an embellishment of a chord. In all these cases, the Rings of Power chords are central.

To me, it's more about a progression. At first the Rings of Power and mithril is only hinted at, so we just get the small six-note motif for choir and high strings. When we finally see mithril, it's invigorated with arpeggios. But they're rather static, emphasising repeated thirds. It's not until the idea for the alloy is presented that the arpeggios get their steady flowing form, which is a classic Hollywood-scoring trope for discovery and excitement. This leads into the entrance of the Where the Shadows Lie melody, completing the theme's transformation.

That's my take on it anyway.

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I guess by the time Bear gets to his blog on episode 8 we'll understand it

 

Until then I'm pretty comfortable thinking of the Forging Theme as a separate theme from the Rings theme.  It could recur in each season finale as they make the dwarven, men, and one rings

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On 11/09/2022 at 9:37 AM, JNHFan2000 said:

Episode 1: A Shadow Of The Past

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

On 17/09/2022 at 7:54 AM, JNHFan2000 said:

Episode 2: Adrift

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

On 17/09/2022 at 9:46 AM, JNHFan2000 said:

Episode 3: Adar

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

On 17/09/2022 at 11:03 AM, JNHFan2000 said:

Episode 4: The Great Wave

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

On 23/09/2022 at 4:02 PM, JNHFan2000 said:

Episode 5: Partings

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

These posts are so great - are you planning on making them for episodes 6-8?

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I listened through the ep albums in two goes initially, but that was too much and I couldn't concentrate on them fully. I've been going through them one album per evening, on the 6th one now, these breakdowns have been insanely helpful to recognise and memorise the themes and guide me through! Probably extra for me since I've only seen the first 3 eps and vaguely know what happens in the others from comments.

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