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Bear McCreary's "Rings of Power" Themes


Monoverantus

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Ok so we just watched episode 2.

 

I know he called the concert arrangement "Rhûn", but that's not a theme for the region. It's a theme for the new evil wizard guy (didn't catch his name) and his servants. Did he give the concert arrangement the name Rhûn to avoid spoilers or something?

 

And what does the track title "The Gaudrim" mean? Is that the name for the bronze mask guys? If so, that'd be a better name for the concert arrangement!

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47 minutes ago, Jay said:

Ok so we just watched episode 2.

 

I know he called the concert arrangement "Rhûn", but that's not a theme for the region. It's a theme for the new evil wizard guy (didn't catch his name) and his servants. Did he give the concert arrangement the name Rhûn to avoid spoilers or something?

 

And what does the track title "The Gaudrim" mean? Is that the name for the bronze mask guys? If so, that'd be a better name for the concert arrangement!

 

We don't know yet. Bear uses themes in a synecdochic way. The southlands theme represents not just the region but people from that region. Valinor represents not just a place but a people.

 

 Even Shore does, Shire is a theme not just for the locations but for the people from that location - hobbits.

 

 Same with Rhun, it represents the region but also the people in/from that region.

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8 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I know he does. But it isn't really a "theme". This is his own transcription of it.

 

LOTR_Theme_Forging-short-2048x227.png

 

This isn't a melody, it is in an ostinato. Hence I think calling it a motif might be more accurate.

A few notes on this theme:

1: There is no hierarchal relationship between the words "theme" and "motif". A motif isn't lesser than a theme.

2: Shore used plenty of accompaniments (Hobbit Outline, Two-Step, Skip-Beat, Mordor Outline, Skip-Beat, etc) which we refer to as "themes" even though they aren't strictly leitmotifs in the classic sense.

7 hours ago, The Great Gonzales said:

Arpeggio, or Ostinato?

3: It's both, so I'd say it's free for all to call it the Forging Arpeggio or Forging Ostinato if they wish.

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13 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

We don't know yet. Bear uses themes in a synecdochic way. The southlands theme represents not just the region but people from that region.

 

And it represents Halbrand too, sure. 

 

But this Rhûn theme, its a bad guy theme!  It plays when these bad bronze mask guys are following the good guys and later trying to capture/kill them.  And when that evil wizard dude is doing stuff.  I can't imagine it will later be used to represent "the people" of Rhûn.  Does Rhûn even have people that aren't these evildoers?  It seems like its just a big desert so far.

 

 

13 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Valinor represents not just a place but a people.

 

It does?  Maybe I missed something.  When have we seen Valinor people?  I thought Valinor was basically heaven?

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21 hours ago, Tydirium said:

New theme in “My Name Is Not Halbrand” at 1:03-1:21 and 4:46-5:22. The French horn “responses” at 1:10, 4:54 and 5:07 remind me a lot of Shore’s Ring theme, which uses the brass in the exact same way.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

EDIT: Possible S1 appearance in “Power Over Flesh” at 3:12.

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

It does?  Maybe I missed something.  When have we seen Valinor people?  I thought Valinor was basically heaven?

 

Bear has said that Valinor is his theme for Elvendom - or the anthem for Elves. Kahzadum Dum is the anthem for Dwarves, Numenor for High Men, Southlands for Low men, Adar for Orcs, Harfootlife for Harfoots.

 

So he said all peoples get an anthem and Valinor is the elves'. I think his approach makes sense.

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Let's not forget that Valinor does have "people":

 

The Valar

Maiar

Elves who didn't go with Feanor

Elves who did, but died and went to the halls of Mandos

Possibly Elves who never left Middle-Earth with Orome and died and went to the halls of Mandos?

 

And Rhun has the Easterlings, one of who possibly (Khamul) gets a ring and becomes a wraith.

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23 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

There is no hierarchal relationship between the words "theme" and "motif". A motif isn't lesser than a theme.

2: Shore used plenty of accompaniments (Hobbit Outline, Two-Step, Skip-Beat, Mordor Outline, Skip-Beat, etc) which we refer to as "themes" even though they aren't strictly leitmotifs in the classic sense.


Quite. I’mma quote Warren Darcy here:

 

Quote

the term “motive” is often musically inaccurate. Sometimes his melodic ideas are indeed very short (e.g., SERVITUDE [R48]), but often they are complete phrases(e.g., THE RHINEDAUGHTERS[R4]), and sometimes even phrase groups or periods(e.g., THE TARNHELM[R50]). In addition, the harmonization of such an idea is often an extremely important, inseparable component. Therefore, recent Wagner scholarship employs the term “theme” to mean a musical idea of any length, whether a motive, a complete phrase, or a period

 

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I feel I should clarify a bit: there CAN be a hierarchal relationship between themes and motifs, but it doesn't have to. The Shire theme is a theme and a (leit)motif, but you only need the first 3 notes to reference the Shire theme. Hence, those 3 notes can be called a motif (the smallest unit the theme can be reduced to).

So basically, since there are no smaller parts the Forging theme can be reduced to, it doesn't matter if you call it a motif or a theme.

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On 02/09/2024 at 2:32 PM, Tydirium said:

New theme in “My Name Is Not Halbrand” at 1:03-1:21 and 4:46-5:22. The French horn “responses” at 1:10, 4:54 and 5:07 remind me a lot of Shore’s Ring theme, which uses the brass in the exact same way.

 

6 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Definitely the same theme in both spots!

 

6 hours ago, Tydirium said:

EDIT: Possible S1 appearance in “Power Over Flesh” at 3:12.

 

Hmm, the choir right?  Could be the same, yeah, wow!

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59 minutes ago, The Great Gonzales said:

Let's not forget that Shore's Rivendell theme is basically just an arpeggio with a 5 note choral Fanfare on top

The genius of that theme is that the choral fanfare is made of the exact same pitches as the arpeggios. It's Arpeggioception 

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4 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I feel I should clarify a bit: there CAN be a hierarchal relationship between themes and motifs, but it doesn't have to. The Shire theme is a theme and a (leit)motif, but you only need the first 3 notes to reference the Shire theme. Hence, those 3 notes can be called a motif (the smallest unit the theme can be reduced to).

So basically, since there are no smaller parts the Forging theme can be reduced to, it doesn't matter if you call it a motif or a theme.

 

I would say every theme is motivic but every motif is not necessarily a theme - if that makes sense. Though please understand this is just my rationalization as a lay person. 

 

In that I am trying to draw a distinction - for myself atleast - between say for example the Rings theme - which is an elaborate theme with multiple phrases interludes accompaniment etc and the forging ostinato which is 6 notes played over and over. 

 

I feel both are motivic but we do need to put them in different categories to reflect the different degrees of lets just say construction and effort and individuality. For example an orchestra could play the rings theme for 4 minutes. Playing the forging motif for 4 minutes might not be tremendously rewarding.

 

 It's like comparing a motorbike with a 16 wheeler. In principle the word vehicle suffices - both have wheels and an engine and can transport people. But naturally people see they belong in different classes and call one a bike and the other a truck. So thinking words that describe their class or category can be helpful in conceptualizing and analyzing the score. 

 

Or you can totally ignore what i said here 😀 if it doesn't make any sense.

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We need to distinguish “motif” as a “basic musical unit” and motif as “leitmotif” or, as Darcy would have it, “associative theme.”

 

A deeper point is that we needn’t take melodic passages apart so each fragment of melody becomes it’s own leitmotif, and the chords underneath and the accompanying rhythmic figures and so on: the ostinato in question is part of the Ring theme.

 

Again, Darcy is illustrative: many theme guides take Siegfried’s smelting song and break it down to something like eight different leitmotives, which is frankly ridiculous. Darcy largely avoids this.
 

The way Darcy names the different segments of Valhalla - without treating them as leitmotives - is pretty funky, though: the opening chords are “The Fortress”, then the rising melody is “Wotan’s Aspirations for Power”, the falling part is “The security of the fortress”,  then there’s “peace” and the cadence is “the majesty of the fortress”… I really don’t think that kind of thinking is very helpful.

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5 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I would say every theme is motivic but every motif is not necessarily a theme - if that makes sense. Though please understand this is just my rationalization as a lay person. 

 

In that I am trying to draw a distinction - for myself atleast - between say for example the Rings theme - which is an elaborate theme with multiple phrases interludes accompaniment etc and the forging ostinato which is 6 notes played over and over. 

 

I feel both are motivic but we do need to put them in different categories to reflect the different degrees of lets just say construction and effort and individuality. For example an orchestra could play the rings theme for 4 minutes. Playing the forging motif for 4 minutes might not be tremendously rewarding.

 

 It's like comparing a motorbike with a 16 wheeler. In principle the word vehicle suffices - both have wheels and an engine and can transport people. But naturally people see they belong in different classes and call one a bike and the other a truck. So thinking words that describe their class or category can be helpful in conceptualizing and analyzing the score. 

 

Or you can totally ignore what i said here 😀 if it doesn't make any sense.

I totally get what you mean, and in many cases it's no issue. The problem is that there is no rule whatsoever that a theme, motif or leitmotif has to be a certain length. Film music twitter had quite a field day a few months ago with this:

Turns out, a lot of the confusion comes from people unwilling to accept that a leitmotif can just be a little yodeling. (highly recommend checking out all the sarcastic quote tweets)

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

A deeper point is that we needn’t take melodic passages apart so each fragment of melody becomes it’s own leitmotif, and the chords underneath and the accompanying rhythmic figures and so on: the ostinato in question is part of the Ring theme.

 

Again, Darcy is illustrative: many theme guides take Siegfried’s smelting song and break it down to something like eight different leitmotives, which is frankly ridiculous. Darcy largely avoids this.

I think this is generally the case, with Shore being the rare exception. What we're really talking about here is the difference between a holistic and atomistic approach of analysis.  I think the fact that he so consistently made so many "good" themes centered around down-and-up whole-notes makes it entirely justified to say the Fellowship, The White Rider, Aragorn's theme, Gondor in Ascension etc all include a "Good motif", contra the half-step "Evil motif" found in many of the Evil themes.  This lends thematic purpose even to Isengard having the same Good shape, but in the half-steps of the Evil motif, hence being a "corrupted" Good theme. If any score warrants a more atomistic analysis, it's this one.

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Oh yes. I’m more from the standpoint of taking, say, the Rohan theme and saying the A phrase is one leitmotif and the B phrase is another leitmotif and the ascending chords underneath are another one still, and the countermelody, etc…

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23 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Oh yes. I’m more from the standpoint of taking, say, the Rohan theme and saying the A phrase is one leitmotif and the B phrase is another leitmotif and the ascending chords underneath are another one still, and the countermelody, etc…

I'd say that any part of a theme that is also used independently/interdependently for a specific thematic purpose can be referred to as its own leitmotif (as with the Good/Evil motifs). Arguably, the Rohan Fanfare's opening minor third and Dorian harmony qualify too.

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2 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

I'd say that any part of a theme that is also used independently/interdependently for a specific thematic purpose can be referred to as its own leitmotif (as with the Good/Evil motifs). Arguably, the Rohan Fanfare's opening minor third and Dorian harmony qualify too.

 

To be entirely fair to Bear, if we give the same treatment to Bear's score because he often uses just the Ostinato of a theme, or A part of a theme, or the B part of the theme and accompaniment etc. in all sorts of different ways and combos - then he has also created a tapestry of easily over 70-80 motifs for Rings of Power if not more. 

 

One thing we also need to commend Bear on which is honestly quite extraordinary is that with 2 seasons he has manage to conjure up two dozen concert presentation of his themes which is remarkable to me - it is perhaps as many as Willaims managed in 9 Star Wars scores, and Shore obviously did not write many (or any) concert suites for individual theme presentations. 

 

Whatever terms we use, I think it is worth acknowledging that Bear's score is kinda unprecedented and extraordinary for its ambition alone (to my knowledge that is I haven't trafficked much in television scores at all).

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Episode 4 - Eldest

 

01 Elves Embark (2:28)

  • 1:43 Elrond

02 Meeting Tom Bombadil (3:18)

  • 0:00 The Stranger
  • 0:08 this 3-note pattern sounds familiar?
  • 1:54 The Stranger
  • 2:44 Tom Bombadil

03 Concerning Stoors (5:11)

  • 0:00 Nori
  • 0:37 Harfoot
  • 1:58 Harfoot
  • 2:18 Stoors
  • 4:53 Nori

04 The Dark Wizard (2:26)

  • 0:13 Rhûn
  • 1:33 Rhûn

05 Eldest (5:35)

  • 0:00 Tom Bombadil
  • 1:33 Tom Bombadil
  • 2:22 The Stranger
  • 3:22 The Stranger
  • 3:42 Rhûn
  • 4:53 The Stranger

06 Lair of the Barrow-wights (3:16)

  • 0:00 Barrow-wights
  • 1:59 Elrond
  • 2:23 Elrond
  • 2:27 Galadriel?
  • 2:42 Barrow-wights

07 Mud Beast (2:54)

  • 0:00 Estrid
  • 0:33 Estrid
  • 1:11 Ents (Dangerous)?
  • 2:15 Arondir/Bronwyn
  • 2:21 Arondir/Bronwyn

08 The Sûzat (4:23)

  • 0:43 This Wandering Day
  • 3:00 Elrond
  • 3:43 Galadriel

09 Snaggleroot and Winterbloom (6:52)

  • 0:00 Estrid
  • 0:46 Estrid
  • 1:28 Ents (Dangerous)?
  • 3:28 Ents (Choral)?
  • 5:21 Estrid
  • 5:40 Ents (Choral)?
  • 5:56 Arondir/Bronwyn

10 Galadriel Stands Alone (3:47)

  • 0:00 Adar/Orcs
  • 1:51 Galadriel
  • 2:50 Galadriel
  • 3:03 Galadriel
  • 3:28 Adar/Orcs
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Those are additional statements of the theme that started at 1:51

 

1:51 = first phrase of the theme

2:02 = second phrase of the theme

2:20 = third phrase of the theme

 

Then 2:50 and 3:03 are new statements of the theme, probably in a different cue that's included in the same track

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If I was including end-times in my post (which I probably should), it would have said 1:51-2:34, yeah.

 

0:38 of "Elves Embark", is that the start of Elrond's theme, but then it segues to something else?  And then do we hear more of Elrond's theme around 1:06 on violin? 

 

The repeating figure at the very beginning of "Eldest" is the same as the opening figure of "Old Tom Bombadil" but in a different rhythm right?

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Woah, good catch!  I haven't seen episode 3 yet, what is happening on screen during that part?

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In the episode 4 tracks, the tick-tock ostinato is the same, and then there's similar wood block patterns too

 

In the episode 3 cue, the ostinato seems mostly the same?

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So here's how Bear has used his 28 (!) themes so far in the first half of season 2

 

Four episodes:

  • there are no themes that have appeared in all 4 episodes

Three episodes

  • Sauron (1, 2, 3)
  • The Rings of Power (1, 2, 3)
  • Forging (1, 2, 3... however its appearance in 3 is only via tracked music from 2 being used in the end credits)
  • Galadriel (1, 2, 4)
  • The Stranger (1, 2, 4)
  • Elrond (1, 2, 4)
  • Nori (1, 2, 4)
  • Rhûn (1, 2, 4)

Two episodes

  • Adar/Orcs (1, 4)
  • Halbrand/Southlands (1, 2)
  • Harfoot (1, 4)
  • Khazad-dûm (2, 3)
  • Durin IV (2, 3)
  • Estrid (3, 4)
  • Arondir/Bronwyn (3, 4)
  • Ents (3, 4)

One episode

  • Noble Warrior (1)
  • Gil-galad (1)
  • Valinor (1)
  • Eregion (2)
  • The Mystics (2)
  • Unknown theme (2) - this is the theme that will eventually be heard in whatever episodes "Battle for Eregion" and "The Staff" are from
  • Elendil/Isildur (The Faithful) (3)
  • Númenor (3)
  • Damrod (3)
  • Tom Bombadil (4)
  • Stoors (4)
  • Barrow-wights (4)

Whew!

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What do people think about the section around 2:20 to particularly 2:30 ish (descending then rising low strings) in The Sûzat being a theme? I could swear that I keep hearing the last part from 2:30 everywhere.

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6 hours ago, Jay said:

03 Concerning Stoors (5:11)

  • 0:00 Stoors
  • 0:22 Stoors

These two are Nori's theme.

 

6 hours ago, Jay said:

09 Snaggleroot and Winterbloom (6:52)

  • 0:00 Estrid
  • 0:46 Estrid
  • 1:28 Ents?
  • 3:28 Ents?
  • 5:21 Estrid
  • 5:56 Arondir/Bronwyn

The choral Ent(?) theme is heard shortly at 5:40-5:53 too.

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36 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

These two are Nori's theme.

 

You must have clicked Quote on my post a while ago!  That's been fixed for quite some time!

 

 

36 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

The choral Ent(?) theme is heard shortly at 5:40-5:53 too.

 

Nice catch!

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The track Elves Embark has a melody that appears twice in that track at 0:03, and again at 0:48. I'm not sure if we've heard this already anywhere else, but it kind of reminds me of Shore's opening music for An Unexpected Journey with the House of Durin theme!

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2 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

The track Elves Embark has a melody that appears twice in that track at 0:03, and again at 0:48.

 

Nice catch!

 

2 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

I'm not sure if we've heard this already anywhere else

 

I don't think so....

 

2 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

iit kind of reminds me of Shore's opening music for An Unexpected Journey with the House of Durin theme!

 

Woah!  Now that I don't really hear

 

However, I have picked up on a bunch of near-Shore-isms this season though!

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26 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

What do people think about the section around 2:20 to particularly 2:30 ish (descending then rising low strings) in The Sûzat being a theme? I could swear that I keep hearing the last part from 2:30 everywhere.

 

Oh, interesting.  Sounds like Gil-galad's theme?

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26 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

The track Elves Embark has a melody that appears twice in that track at 0:03, and again at 0:48. I'm not sure if we've heard this already anywhere else, but it kind of reminds me of Shore's opening music for An Unexpected Journey with the House of Durin theme!

Isn't that the same thing heard in "Army Of Orcs" at 0:43 & 1:35? My mind could be playing tricks on me now.

 

But I love those statements and I've been searching for more of it in the season and this sounds closest to it up to this point.

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I think you're on to something here. I think that might be the same theme.

 

Maybe Elrond and Galadriel's group has some new Elf warrior dude in it, and he gets involved in some sweet action scenes in whatever episode Army of Orcs is from

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