Bespin 8,480 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 Spoiler 14 hours ago, Tom said: Indy goes back in time. Helen goes back with Indy. Agamemnon rallies the Greeks, uses his own machine, and launches all out war in late 60s America. Achilles kills Indy, takes his last name, and the franchise continues as Achilles Jones (whose own death in a later installment will sort of write itself). Just read about the Elysium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 47 minutes ago, Edmilson said: I was thinking, Williams described the character as a femme fatale, but I don't think her theme quite conveys that. It sounds like a theme for a much nicer, more wholesome character, kinda like Anakin's Theme or My Friend Brachiossaurus. Irina's Theme, on the other hand, does sound particularly femme fatale-y. Yeah. He used that word to describe Spalko, but on film she never seemed particularly “femme fatale “ to me. There has to be something alluring about a femme fatale. Sexy but dangerous. I think Cate Blanchet could have done that. But for whatever reason, the writing and/or direction/editing of the character never came off that way. Just a stereotypical “cold Russian”. William’s Spalko theme is truly perfect for a femme fatale though. For my money the best femme fatale we’ve seen in Indy has been Elsa Come to think of it, I’m surprised Williams didn’t try to write a more mysterious sexy theme for her. The closest I think he got was a whisp of a moment in “The Austrian Way” 00:36-1:55 It wants to be a theme but never seems to materialize. I guess that musically nebulous approach to her character works though as her motivations are always changing throughout the film. Still. Seems like a missed opportunity for JW. Edmilson and Brando 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 Helena's theme is just so lovely. It flows beautifully. In its romantic tones, it reminds me a bit of Sabrina in some moments. Really sweet with moments of femme fatale darkness. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lao Che 86 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I can already hear the dialogue going on while this theme is playing in the background...things like: "trust me..""I hate arrogant men""me?a conceded ape?""I dont like fast women""Oh Indy.." "I love Sicily.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 Nah Helena is probably gonna "put him in his place" by kicking his ass for the entire movie and refusing his inappropriate advances. BB-8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,651 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I just don't see this Helena as Indy's love interest in anyway shape or form--age means something, even to people in Hollywood. Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hristo 12 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 Cerebral Cortex and DrTenma 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DangerMotif 1,037 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 A couple years away from this quote: “I told Kathy Kennedy I'm happy to do it, but the real reason is, I didn't want anybody else writing music for Phoebe Waller-Bridge .” - John Williams on scoring Indy 6 Alex Shore, Brando, crumbs and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,468 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 "...who is many things." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConorPower 148 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 The discussion here of "Love Themes" is rather interesting. Williams calling PWB's Helena a femme fatale struck me, as the theme didn't sound as noir-ish as Irina's theme. I'd be interesting in seeing how the theme relates to the depiction of her. Is it really representative of her character, or (as described in relation to Marion's theme on Art of the Score) a "thinking of Helena" theme? Not so much representative of her but how Indy (or maybe even Williams?) thinks about her. I addressed this issue a bit when discussing Irina and KotCS in article I had out last year. I'll do a shameless self-plug for anyone who might be interested in reading it. Article - Swashbucklers and Femme Fatales - Gender Coding in John Williams's Score to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008).pdf Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 11 hours ago, Roll the Bones said: Yeah, should be cigars! Did you just become my new best friend?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjimwilson 254 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 This gets lovelier the more I listen. Shades of Alfred Newman, and I'm even hearing a little Sabrina in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,468 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I am wondering whether this is a fully fledged theme or rather a cell that is awaiting some kind of development, transformation, or merging with existing themes. Could Helena be an antagonist in disguise? I was also day-dreaming about the potential plot...1969 (?): the Apollo Mission, a Lost Ark hidden by post-WWII villains on a space-station or even on the moon, thus the competition to get there first... Come on, that's a better plot than stories about crystal skulls and alien in-/evasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Giftheck 916 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 I love it! I can also hear where (I think) the join to the second part of Raiders March is going to be in the end credits. I can't wait to hear the rest of the soundtrack! BB-8, crumbs and Brando 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amer 2,097 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 It would be a nice homage if Williams intervines both Marion and Willie Scotts’ romantic themes while segueing into each other and moving towards the end title coda. Since this will be the last Indy film Iam hoping he can do something special like he did with the TROS end titles. Andy and Brando 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,515 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 Geez Louise. Allowing music from IJ5 to be heard 10 months before release? The Mouse is desperate. Disco Stu, Taikomochi, Brando and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I think JW simply asked if he can play the theme in concert... and they just can't say no to JW. Okay, but just say its "Helena"'s Theme, not more, okay? Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando 1,863 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, Amer said: It would be a nice homage if Williams intervines both Marion and Willie Scotts’ romantic themes while segueing into each other and moving towards the end title coda. Since this will be the last Indy film Iam hoping he can do something special like he did with the TROS end titles. I think it would be sweet if he touched on a little bit of all the end credits from each film during the finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post King Mark 3,631 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 On 05/09/2022 at 4:00 AM, ConorPower said: The discussion here of "Love Themes" is rather interesting. Williams calling PWB's Helena a femme fatale struck me, as the theme didn't sound as noir-ish as Irina's theme. I'd be interesting in seeing how the theme relates to the depiction of her. Is it really representative of her character, or (as described in relation to Marion's theme on Art of the Score) a "thinking of Helena" theme? Not so much representative of her but how Indy (or maybe even Williams?) thinks about her. I addressed this issue a bit when discussing Irina and KotCS in article I had out last year. I'll do a shameless self-plug for anyone who might be interested in reading it. Article - Swashbucklers and Femme Fatales - Gender Coding in John Williams's Score to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008).pdf 359.2 kB · 3 downloads I stopped reading your attached article at "Marion is a damsel in distress; an object of the male gaze. Other female characters of the original trilogy are similarly objectified..." . Thank your for ruining my day with this woke nonsense and dragging Williams music into it. But don't worry. Faced with sexual misconduct allegations, Indy will be forced to resign from his job at the academy with Helena taking over his duties at the end of Indy 5. And the main plot of the film will involve Indy returning all the artifacts he stole from grave sites over the years and apologising to their owner's descendants when he realises it was cultural appropriation. (Damn, that would surely qualify Indy 5 for a best picture nomination at the Wokescars). Bounty95, Manakin Skywalker, eitam and 7 others 2 2 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted September 5, 2022 Author Share Posted September 5, 2022 He didn't describe her as a femme fatale last night He also said it was Mangold's idea for him to play it at the Bowl this weekend Bespin and BB-8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BB-8 3,468 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Jay said: He didn't describe her as a femme fatale last night He also said it was Mangold's idea for him to play it at the Bowl this weekend A good move from Mangold, I think, because at 90 you have no time to waste, and JW's music is the best kind of teaser/promotion one can think of - "without the distraction of the film". ;-) There has been too much canned synthetic music underlying recent trailers - so good to start with the real music from the very beginning. Brando, Ricard, Tydirium and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post King Mark 3,631 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 Every day that Williams is still around is precious and can't be wasted. Brando, ZackR, Tydirium and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I could also imagine it would be a good setup for a final Oscar campaign, by letting the theme sink in before it's out so the impact of the score will be bigger – people will actually be able to hum it before they've seen the movie! BB-8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 well as lovely as it is it's not very hummable Fabulin and toothless 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post p0llux 398 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, King Mark said: well as lovely as it is it's not very hummable Sure you can. I believe in you. Try this clip: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxZXLdoMSeFSaOAY2fwechvQN2EeoHy8KM and keep it on repeat. ThePenitentMan1, WDG01, Remco and 2 others 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Brando 1,863 Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 He is one of us!! Andy, ThePenitentMan1, Falstaft and 15 others 3 14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Andy 4,119 Posted September 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2022 Indy 5-Film Box Set confirmed!!! Edmilson, Brando, Tom and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 It's surprising he knows about these LLL releases MaxTheHouseelf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,651 Posted September 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2022 Well, now I am wishing Mangold had done IX. Raiders of the SoundtrArk, Cerebral Cortex, Falstaft and 4 others 4 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerMotif 1,037 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, King Mark said: It's surprising he knows about these LLL releases Yep, would be curious which ones he has if any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted September 6, 2022 Author Share Posted September 6, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtney Sees Ghosts 269 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 The more I listen to it the more emotional I get. I'm gonna be as obsessed with this piece as I was with Rey's Theme. Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,306 Posted September 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2022 Imagine if Mangold has enough clout (after finishing post-production) to push Disney Records to assemble expansions between now and July next year? Great to see he's actively responding to tweets about it! Courtney Sees Ghosts, Docteur Qui, ThePenitentMan1 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando 1,863 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 16 minutes ago, crumbs said: Great to see he's actively responding to tweets about it! One of the few pros to Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Brando said: That is cool! Brando and MrJosh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerMotif 1,037 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 29 minutes ago, crumbs said: Imagine if Mangold has enough clout (after finishing post-production) to push Disney Records to assemble expansions between now and July next year? Great to see he's actively responding to tweets about it! I would assume if he asks for it and John gives his blessing, they'll do it. if more people ask him it's not far-fetched to think he will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando 1,863 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 I did throw the idea of an isolated score bonus feature out there just to be on the safe side, I'm hoping he at least sees that and everyone crosses their fingers Manakin Skywalker and ThePenitentMan1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted September 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2022 4 hours ago, Brando said: He is one of us!! Really bizarre (and really cool) seeing such a big Hollywood director responding to stuff like this haha. Edmilson, Not Mr. Big, Brando and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DangerMotif 1,037 Posted September 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2022 he posted this a while back, he seems to appreciate JW a-lot but we’ll really find out when the film comes out BB-8, Brando and GerateWohl 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,356 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 But I strongly disagree with those asking for a complete score release at day one. First I want my single disk OST with selected pieces edited for a good listening experience. But well made please. I have to admit, that recently the FYC albums were particularly better than the OSTs. At least for SW 8 and 9. Because FYC was focussed on the new music and OST on the old ones from the previous movies. enderdrag64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said: Really bizarre (and really cool) seeing such a big Hollywood director responding to stuff like this haha. Imagine a James Mangold - John Powell collaboration, where both would tweet things. A better world Jay and BB-8 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando 1,863 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 14 hours ago, GerateWohl said: But I strongly disagree with those asking for a complete score release at day one. First I want my single disk OST with selected pieces edited for a good listening experience. Both is good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 At the golden era of albums, vynils then CDs, OSTs had a chance to become a selling success of its own. This era is behind us. So yes, why not release the complete score at first. We'll pay for that, I mean us, who allow the specialized labels to live. And those specialized labels determine in advance what will be their sales, by releasing Limited Editions. That's how it works now. Except for a Star Wars movie (or very specific franchise), there is no more market for old OSTs like we knew them. enderdrag64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,356 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 Looking back, it was a little frustrating to have for about 14 years only the 40 minute OST of E.T. at hand. For Indy 2 it was even longer I think. This time they don't have to wait that long to release the first expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,468 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 The Best Exotic Mangold Hotel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,346 Posted September 6, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2022 1 hour ago, GerateWohl said: Looking back, it was a little frustrating to have for about 14 years only the 40 minute OST of E.T. at hand. For Indy 2 it was even longer I think. This time they don't have to wait that long to release the first expansion. Time from OST album to first expansion for Williams scores 46 years The Eiger Sanction, 1975 -> 2021 45 years Earthquake, 1974 -> 2019 42 years How To Steal A Million, 1966 -> 2008 Tom Sawyer, 1973 -> 2015 40 years Not With My Wife You Don't!, 1966 -> 2006 39 years Dracula, 1979 -> 2018 38 years Penelope, 1966 -> 2004 37 years Fitzwilly, 1967 -> 2004 Goodbye, Mr. Chips, 1969 -> 2006 Jaws 2, 1978 -> 2015 Monsignor, 1982 -> 2019 36 years The River, 1984 -> 2020 SpaceCamp, 1986 -> 2022 32 years 1941, 1979 -> 2011 Always, 1989 -> 2021 Presumed Innocent, 1990 -> 2022 30 years Fiddler On The Roof, 1971 -> 2001 28 years Far And Away, 1992 -> 2020 27 years The Towering Inferno, 1974 -> 2001 Empire Of The Sun, 1987 -> 2014 Stanley & Iris, 1990 -> 2017 26 years The Reivers, 1969 -> 1995 25 years Jaws, 1975 -> 2000 Schindler's List, 1993 -> 2018 24 years Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, 1984 -> 2008 23 years The Missouri Breaks, 1976 -> 1999 22 years Superman: The Movie, 1978 -> 2000 21 years Close Encounters of the Third Kind, 1977 -> 1998 Hook, 1991 -> 2012 20 years Home Alone, 1990 -> 2010 Jurassic Park, 1993 -> 2013 Saving Private Ryan, 1998 -> 2018 19 years Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989 -> 2008 The Lost World, 1997 -> 2016 17 years Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, 2001 -> 2018 Minority Report, 2002 -> 2019 16 years Star Wars, 1977 -> 1993 Rosewood, 1997 -> 2013 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, 2002 -> 2018 15 years War of the Worlds, 2005 -> 2020 14 years Raiders of the Lost Ark, 1981 -> 1995 ET, 1982 -> 1996 A.I. Artificial Intelligence, 2001 -> 2015 Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, 2004 -> 2018 13 years The Empire Strikes Back, 1980 -> 1993 12 years The Fury, 1978 -> 1990 10 years Return of the Jedi, 1983 -> 1993 Home Alone 2, 1992 -> 2002 1 year The Phantom Menace, 1999 -> 2000 Williams scores with no expansion yet Diamond Head, 1963 (59) Valley of the Dolls, 1967 (55) Heidi, 1968 (54) Jane Eyre, 1970 (52) Cinderella Liberty, 1973 (49) The Witches Of Eastwick, 1987 (35) The Accidental Tourist, 1988 (34) Born On The Fourth Of July, 1989 (33) JFK, 1991 (31) Nixon, 1995 (27) Sabrina, 1995 (27) Sleepers, 1996 (26) Seven Years In Tibet, 1997 (25) Amistad, 1997 (25) Stepmom, 1998 (24) Angela's Ashes, 1999 (23) The Patriot, 2000 (22) Attack of the Clones, 2002 (20) Catch Me If You Can, 2002 (20) The Terminal, 2004 (18) Revenge of the Sith, 2005 (17) Munich, 2005 (17) Memoirs Of A Geisha, 2005 (17) Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, 2008 (14) The Adventures of Tintin, 2011 (11) War Horse, 2011 (11) Lincoln, 2012 (10) The Book Thief, 2013 (9) The Force Awakens, 2015 (7) The BFG, 2016 (6) The Last Jedi, 2017 (5) The Post, 2017 (5) The Rise of Skywalker, 2019 (2) Williams scores with no release of any kind yet You Are Welcome, 1954 (68) Daddy-O, 1959 (63) I Passed for White, 1960 (62) Because They’re Young, 1960 (62) The Secret Ways, 1961 (61) Stark Fear, 1962 (60) Gidget Goes To Rome, 1963 (59) The Killers, 1964 (58) The Katherine Reed Story, 1965 (57) The Rare Breed, 1966 (56) The Plainsman, 1966 (56) Daddy’s Gone A-Hunting, 1969 (53) Story of a Woman, 1970 (52) The Screaming Woman, 1972 (50) The Sugarland Express, 1974 (48) The Unfinished Journey, 1999 (23) A Timeless Call, 2008 (14) Dear Basketball, 2017 (5) GerateWohl, Raiders of the SoundtrArk, rough cut and 11 others 8 1 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJosh 892 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 @Jaywhat a cool breakdown of OSTs and time to first expansion, thanks for making that! As for Helena's theme, it's great! Really excited to for this score next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB-8 3,468 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 I watched the Eiger Sanctions for the first time last night (second-hand German DVD)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 55 minutes ago, Jay said: Stark Fear, 1962 (60) The Katherine Reed Story, 1965 (57) Hmm, strange. I didn't have those in my Williams spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t3wT8eQumVviGLYHhZPXsMASnh5_COfWEICbbw4hS3I/edit#gid=865673007 I know it still likely isn't complete, but their addition makes Star Wars Williams's round 50th film score and 100th composition! Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted September 6, 2022 Author Share Posted September 6, 2022 For Stark Fear, he only composed the "Party Music"; Lawrence V. Fisher composed the film score "The Katherine Reed Story" is a short film, not feature length Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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