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AHSOKA - 2023 Star Wars TV


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6 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Oh. The Acolyte isn't your "atrocity"? What is?

Definitely that crime against humanity masquerading as "ep 9".

NO WAY The Acolyte could be more offensive than that.

 

I was SO curious to see the next movie after TLJ.

And I remain curious because TRoS just doesn't... doesn't count.

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True! But I like dumb horror for different reasons.  I never thought Rise of Skywalker was dumb.  I sincerely enjoy it. 

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Just now, Andy said:

True! But I like dumb horror for different reasons.  I never thought Rise of Skywalker was dumb.  I sincerely enjoy it. 

Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who likes his movie? ;)

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6 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I'm happy for everyone who can enjoy TRoS.

I wished I could.

I hate it with a vengeance and for good bloody reason (it really IS conceptually a crime against humanity, just look at the treatment of Finn and Rose).

But I don't enjoy hating it. I genuinely wished I didn't. 

 

The production values are all there.

No complaints about the cast whatsoever.

They had everything set up to make a genuinely good Star Wars movie. 

And then there spoiled it with THE most baffling decisions and writing.

They deliberately designed it to be genuinely shockingly bad. 

 

Look up the leaked "Duel of the Fates" story from when Colin Trevorrow was still attached as director. 

You can find it as fan comic online and even as video on YouTube. 

I won't claim that's perfect either, but it's SO much better that it's not even funny. 

So they actually CHOSE to make things WAAAY WAY worse. 

 

I feel so sorry for John Williams that THIS horror is where he finally got his well deserved cameo. 

I suspect Williams wasn't exactly inspired by it either. 

The soundtrack is... nowhere bad, but hardly anything stands out for me. 

Though at least the Emperor's Theme action statement from the FYC is really pretty cool. 

But that's really the ONLY positive thing I can think of regarding the idea to drag Palps' back up from the depths.

(It was a bad idea in Dark Empire and it was a bad idea now. 

As Timothy Zahn has Mara Jade say in Spectre of the Past: "I'm still not convinced that was really him.")


I like Duel of the Fates quite a bit but I will object to the idea that they chose to make things worse, because TROS is the consequence of many seemingly innocuous decisions at the time that added up that were done from the perspective of being good decisions

it's hard to say why exactly Trevorrow exited the project, there's so much behind the scenes we're not privvy to, and DOTF would've had to have been massively reworked regardless due to the death of Carrie Fisher as she plays a prominent role in that script

I think this video does an excellent job analysing the intention and history of TROS and exposing the context that explains why it was what we got: 

 

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I read the Trevorrow draft. I find it hard to look at a script - and not necessarily a finalized script at that - and say "Oh, it would have been so much better than the film we got." At the very least, I thought Kylo's turn - my big "ideological" issue with both the script and the finished film - was very abrupt in the Trevorrow draft, so its not like it was some marvel of a script that got shafted, nor do I care for Trevorrow's previous work.

 

I don't think we have enough information at present to know why this film is the way it is.

 

The internet has this thing where people like to think that there's a better version of the film that's hidden somewhere, down and deep in the vaults, either as a script or as an alternate cut. More often than not, that's quite simply not the case, but its easy to idealise some unseen cut or script OVER what you have to hand.

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25 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Attack of the Clones The Rise of Skywalker is unforgivable.

 

At least with ROS I can accept that I'm watching a dumb movie. All of the people in the movie recognizably act like people. (Except for Palpatine, of course.) It's a lot like Return of the Jedi in this regard.

 

It's interesting (TOPIC!) how much work the Filoni shows are doing / have done / will do to justify the central conceit of the ST: The New Republic sucks and is rotting from nearly to moment it defeats the Empire. Of all the problems I have with Disney Star Wars this is my key one.

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19 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Trevorrow directed Dominion too, maybe you will like it a little then :)

I'm not a Trevorrow fan.

I've only seen the first Jurassic World and thought that was... okay. 

But I must acknowledge that the "Duel of the Fates" story really feels much more like a proper sequel and conclusion to TLJ, but oddly more in line with TFA as well. 

For starters, JJ's Knights of Ren actually got to play a more proper role.

 

For Jurassic World, I like the idea I read across on the internet that suggests the drama and action of the first movie should've occurred in the background, with the park remaining open. I reckon that'd have been BRILLIANT, and would've allowed the park to still play a role in Jurassic World 2.

But alas, that didn't happen. 

I do like what we got instead though, but mainly because it's SO cool to actually see the park operational!

 

17 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I like Duel of the Fates quite a bit but I will object to the idea that they chose to make things worse, because TROS is the consequence of many seemingly innocuous decisions at the time that added up that were done from the perspective of being good decisions

Very ill considered "good decisions".

Like having former stormtroopers defect offscreen without Finn having anything to do with it, leading to Finn having virtually no impact on the story in the end. 

Or Rose going from "John Williams theme worthy main character" to getting one mere meaningless line in the final film.

Even though the DotF story DID have roles for both of them. 

So the movie makers deliberately CHOSE to undermine those characters. 

Supposedly because of xenophobia from China, I hear? But that's just hearsay and I don't know that for sure. 

Either way, the end result is SHAMEFUL. 

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I read the Trevorrow draft. I find it hard to look at a script - and not necessarily a finalized script at that - and say "Oh, it would have been so much better than the film we got."

I read it in the fan comic form and I reckon that gives a much better feel for what the final version might've been than just the plain written word might've been. 

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

At the very least, I thought Kylo's turn - my big "ideological" issue with both the script and the finished film - was very abrupt in the Trevorrow draft

That I'll agree with, it was indeed very sudden. 

If I had the say in the final story, I simply would've not allowed Kylo Ren to get a redemption arc at all. 

It's too much of a copy of Darth Vader.

And TLJ set him up to be the Ultimate Big Bad so very well by killing off Snoke one movie early. 

I think it would've been much more intriguing that way.

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't think we have enough information at present to know why this film is the way it is.

The fan outcry over TLJ is why. 

They tried to "course correct" after the last minute and in so doing alienated those fans who DID approve where the story had been heading, in addition to the fans who felt alienated by TLJ as well, ultimately pleasing no-one.

That's what happens when you focus on what you think people want, rather than on just telling a good story you believe in yourself. 

 

Another thing that I find really really dumb is that the intriguing (not to mention true to life!) war profiteers angle set up by TLJ got completely ignored again. People complain how Canto Bight was a waste of screen time, but I always saw it as being a brilliant set up for stories to come next. 

If only ep 9 HAD followed up on that, that would've retroactively given more meaning to TLJ as well. 

Instead, DJ just got off free and turned into a complete non-character.

 

The DotF story doesn't do that much better on this one either though, but at least the comic adaptation does play lip service to those war profiteers. 

Still a far cry from what I'd have been hoping to see myself, but a step up at the very least.

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1 hour ago, Pieter Boelen said:

If I had the say in the final story, I simply would've not allowed Kylo Ren to get a religion arc at all. 

It's too much of a copy of Darth Vader.

And TLJ set him up to be the Ultimate Big Bad so very well by killing off Snoke one movie early. 

 

The Last Jedi ultimately left this sorta ambigious: we see Rey shutting the door - proverbially and literally - on their force connection, but at the same time, Luke tells Leia, of Kylo, that "no one is ever really gone." Just one of the many ways in which Johnson's film is less bold and less clever than it passes itself for.

 

But yeah, its clear that having set-up Kylo the way they had, both JJ Abrams (who was executive producer on the entire trilogy) and Kathleen Kennedy et al expected Kylo to be redeemed: in the commentary track, Abrams says "the minute Kylo does it [kill Han] he regrets it." There's an interview somewhere of one of the producers where they say "we were always going to find a way to redemption for the son of Han and Leia." It's just another conceptual betrayal of this idea in The Rise of Skywalker that "some things are stronger than blood" - that BECAUSE he is the son of the legacy characters, Kylo can get away with whatever and, sure, pay with his life but nonetheless die a martyr.

 

I've made my objections to this redemption arc known a million times so there's little need to reiterate the why, but of all the superlative titles heaped on Star Wars - the original - the one that does hit the mark is the idea of it as a "morality play." And if we accept that it is a morality play than the spirit of it is surely and thoroughly betrayed by giving a token redemption to a ruthless, neurotic mass-murderer. There's a kind of operatic appeal to seeing the conscience tormented-character at last swallowed whole by his demons and go down in a blaze. But no, we had to go the carebear route with it...

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3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But yeah, its clear that having set-up Kylo the way they had, both JJ Abrams (who was executive producer on the entire trilogy) and Kathleen Kennedy et al expected Kylo to be redeemed: in the commentary track, Abrams says "the minute Kylo does it [kill Han] he regrets it." There's an interview somewhere of one of the producers where they say "we were always going to find a way to redemption for the son of Han and Leia."

Strange. 

I thought Adam Driver was originally told he wouldn't be redeemed. 

But I forgot the source for that, so I may be misremembering. 

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I've made my objections to this redemption arc known a million times so there's little need to reiterate the why, but of all the superlative titles heaped on Star Wars - the original - the one that does hit the mark is the idea of it as a "morality play." And if we accept that it is a morality play than the spirit of it is surely and thoroughly betrayed by giving a token redemption to a ruthless, neurotic mass-murderer. There's a kind of operatic appeal to seeing the conscience tormented-character at last swallowed whole by his demons and go down in a blaze. But no, we had to go the carebear route with it...

I definitely agree with Star Wars as morality play. 

But I assume the redemption of Vader was to show that it's never too late to do the right thing. 

I do believe that gets undermined though by easily doing the exact same thing again with Kylo Ren.

That story turn is only powerful to me if it's the exception, rather than the rule. 

 

Alternatively, I do like the idea that if Ben Solo would see the error of his ways before his death after all, it'd be most interesting for him NOT to die right after. 

What interesting story could be told where he would actually have to deal with the consequences of his dark actions in the end. 

Death is merely the easy way out.

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8 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Very ill considered "good decisions".

Like having former stormtroopers defect offscreen without Finn having anything to do with it, leading to Finn having virtually no impact on the story in the end. 

Or Rose going from "John Williams theme worthy main character" to getting one mere meaningless line in the final film.

Even though the DotF story DID have roles for both of them. 

So the movie makers deliberately CHOSE to undermine those characters. 

Supposedly because of xenophobia from China, I hear? But that's just hearsay and I don't know that for sure. 

Either way, the end result is SHAMEFUL. 

 

my point is that these are indirect consequences from decisions rather than direct choices. stuff shifted around enough that suddenly Finn's Storm trooper uprising turns into the Jannah arc, it wasn't a case of choosing to undermine the character

 

given DOTF was being written alongside TLJ, the backlash to Rose as a character hadn't manifested and I'm fairly sure that she would've been deprioritised in later drafts of DOTF as a result

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31 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

 

my point is that these are indirect consequences from decisions rather than direct choices. stuff shifted around enough that suddenly Finn's Storm trooper uprising turns into the Jannah arc, it wasn't a case of choosing to undermine the character

 

given DOTF was being written alongside TLJ, the backlash to Rose as a character hadn't manifested and I'm fairly sure that she would've been deprioritised in later drafts of DOTF as a result

I like to believe indeed they didn't deliberately WANT to make a bad movie. 

But they sure succeeded at that anyway!

They could've done better. 

So much better. 

And they really, really didn't. 

 

I blame JJ and whatever producers forced the anti-TLJ, anti-Finn and anti-Rose decisions.

Plus whoever thought it was a good idea to undo Vader's sacrifice by bringing Palps back as well.

 

As writing choices go, it's pretty horrendous how much of the stuff in this old article DID end up happening: 

https://www.cracked.com/article_167_5-reasons-star-wars-sequels-would-be-worse-than-prequels.html

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13 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Vader didn't sacrifice himself to kill Palpatine, he sacrificed himself to save Luke.

To paraphrase another franchise: "I set out to save Luke, he has been saved"

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17 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't think we have enough information at present to know why this film is the way it is.


There is actually a surprising amount of information on the making of this film, much more than I had expected. You may find this to be an enlightening read:

 

https://talkingpicturesandgames.wordpress.com/2024/12/25/the-secret-history-of-star-wars-episode-ix/

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15 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Vader didn't sacrifice himself to kill Palpatine, he sacrificed himself to save Luke.

I always figured he was supposed to bring balance to the Force by ending the line of the Sith.

But yes, at least he saved Luke.

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36 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I always figured he was supposed to bring balance to the Force by ending the line of the Sith.

 

I bet you didn't in 1983. :)

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35 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

I bet you didn't in 1983. :)

Indeed not. 

I wasn't even on the horizon yet back then. 

 

First finally saw Star Wars around the time the prequels were coming out. 

Unfortunately my parents weren't interested at all, so when all my primary school buddies were watching the 1997 special editions and geeking out about those, I was left out. 

So I read Star Wars books before finally seeing the movies...

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15 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I always figured he was supposed to bring balance to the Force

 

In effect, yes.

 

But this was always going to be counteracted in the making of a sequel trilogy of any sort.

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14 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

See, I take "balance" to be, among other things, the absence of war, so...


cheeky, you were responding to the idea of ending the line of the Sith not war in general :P

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